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High-tech public toilets going to waste, city told
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER ^ | October 5, 2006 | KERY MURAKAMI

Posted on 10/05/2006 11:22:54 AM PDT by Sopater

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/287615_toilet05.html

High-tech public toilets going to waste, city told

Fancy facilities are used for drugs, prostitution

Thursday, October 5, 2006

By KERY MURAKAMI
P-I REPORTER

Jack Gray and the other homeless men who sat in Pioneer Square's Occidental Park say they go to the mission when nature calls. Or to the Starbucks.

Anywhere, they say, besides one of the city's fancy automated public toilets -- two years old and just on the other side of the park.

  Joe Powers cleans the toilet
  Zoom Mike Kane / P-I
  Honey Bucket route driver Joe Powers cleans the automated public toilet in Occidental Square downtown on Wednesday. The city decided in 2004 to spend nearly $700,000 a year to maintain five high-tech toilets.

"The crack heads are always in there," Gray said.

The decadelong debate over giving people public toilets downtown appeared to be over when the Seattle City Council decided in 2004 to spend nearly $700,000 a year to maintain five high-tech toilets downtown and on Broadway in Capitol Hill.

But these days, local businesses say the toilets have only made things worse. Not only have they become a haven for drug dealers and prostitutes, but the streets are filled with more urine and feces than before, according to Seattle merchants and members of the Metropolitan Improvement District.

The organization, funded by downtown businesses to clean and patrol streets, wants Seattle to flush the state-of-the art toilets -- even if the city has to eat roughly $820,000 to dispose of them and break its maintenance contract.

But representatives of Seattle Public Utilities, the agency responsible for overseeing the toilets, said they're doing some good and will improve next month.

A camera will go up outside one of the toilets to deter criminals, though the utility hasn't selected one yet, said Sandy Kraus, the project manager.

It also plans to pass a rule barring more than one person from being inside a toilet at the same time, unless helping a child or a handicapped person, she said.

City Attorney Tom Carr, who said earlier this week that the city should "just cut its losses" and get rid of the toilets, reneged Wednesday and said through a spokeswoman that the utility's plan is worth a try.

But City Councilman Tom Rasmussen wants the utility company to plan for what to do if the city ditches the toilets.

"They've become dens of illegal behavior," he said.

In addition to the Capitol Hill and Occidental Park toilets, there are some in Hing Hay Park, Victor Steinbrueck Park and on the waterfront next to the Seattle Aquarium.

City Councilman Richard Conlin, who voted in favor of acquiring the toilets in 2001, agreed.

"They haven't worked out the way we'd hoped. ... We're going to have to go back to the drawing board," he said.

Certainly council members hadn't envisioned the scene Wednesday on First Avenue, between Pike and Pine streets, outside the Eco-Elements store.

Inside, there were environmentally friendly lotions.

In the doorway, there was a large piece of human feces.

Reggie Smith, the improvement district's field supervisor, pulled up in a truck with a shovel and collected the waste in a black garbage bag, before spraying the doorway with water and a sanitizer.

"It's human," said Smith, who installed phone lines for Qwest before being laid off then hired by the district.

He'd gotten 21 total calls from district ambassadors Tuesday and Wednesday about garbage, urine, feces and vomit. The ambassadors patrol downtown streets daily.

Smith said the automated toilets he sees always seem to have drug dealers in front, forcing people to find somewhere else to go. "And I guess when you have to go, you have to go."

Peggy Dreisinger, the improvement district's field operations director, said that since the automatic toilets were installed two years ago, 7,418 occurrences of human waste have been reported and cleaned up.

"In the two years prior to the installation, the number is just over 2,400," she said.

The automated flushing toilets are enclosed with a locking door that automatically opens after 10 minutes. A minute earlier, a voice warns that time is nearly up. Once vacant, fluid is sprayed to clean the roomy chamber, avoiding the toilet paper, for the next patron.

In 2001, the City Council authorized bringing automated toilets to Seattle's streets. Then-Mayor Paul Schell, however, vetoed the measure as too expensive. But council members overrode Schell's veto, and in 2004, the city entered into the contract with Northwest Cascade to maintain the toilets.

  Reggie Smith shovels trash
  Zoom Mike Kane / P-I
  The Metropolitan Improvement District's Reggie Smith shovels trash and feces while cleaning a downtown Seattle alley Wednesday. Despite the public toilets, city streets still contain human waste.

The city's contract with Northwest Cascade runs until March 2014, but Kraus said the city can cancel the agreement in March 2008 for about $820,000.

In 2005, an MID task force examined the cost of canceling early, possibly immediately, and said the city would save money in the long run by not paying roughly $656,000 annually until 2014.

The task force, though, recommended first trying to change the city's sign ordinance to allow ad kiosks, then using the revenue from the advertising to hire attendants at the toilets.

But Kraus said changing the sign ordinance seems unrealistic.

Meanwhile, some merchants have lost patience.

At the Fuel sports bar, down the street from Occidental Park, owner Mike Morris said Tuesday that the toilets are no longer viable.

"It's a joke. There's drug use going on in there, prostitution. ... How do I know? You see two people going in there. What do you think they're doing?"

But not everyone is ready to trash the idea.

At the Grand Central Bakery adjacent to Occidental Park, store manager Carolyn Padineau said Tuesday, "I love the toilets." Since the toilets went in, she said, there have been fewer incidents of drug use in her bathroom. Apparently, she said, that's because the drug users have moved to the automated toilets.

Mayor Greg Nickels' proposal Wednesday to create a squad of unarmed rangers to patrol downtown parks could help deter criminal activity in and around the toilets, but, Kraus said, "I don't think toilets are the deciding factor of whether we have drug activity or no drug activity."

And she is not sure simply getting rid of the toilets is the answer.

"They capture a lot of raw sewage that would go somewhere else, and some of it would go on the street," said Kraus. "We'd just be right back to where we started."


P-I reporter Kery Murakami can be reached at 206-448-8131 or kerymurakami@seattlepi.com.

© 1998-2006 Seattle Post-Intelligencer


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; US: Washington
KEYWORDS:
Seattle City Council decided in 2004 to spend nearly $700,000 a year to maintain five high-tech toilets

[snip]

Not only have they become a haven for drug dealers and prostitutes, but the streets are filled with more urine and feces than before

[snip]

But representatives of Seattle Public Utilities, the agency responsible for overseeing the toilets, said they're doing some good and will improve next month.


So why are they so vigorously defending these toilets? When they finally decide to get rid of them, they'll go on and on about how they just saved the city $70k/year.
1 posted on 10/05/2006 11:22:55 AM PDT by Sopater
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To: Sopater

just saved the city $70k/year.

Correction, $700k.


2 posted on 10/05/2006 11:24:02 AM PDT by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: Sopater
Is that what they are? I've been using them to wash my motorcycles and dump the old oil ...
3 posted on 10/05/2006 11:25:32 AM PDT by pabianice
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To: Sopater
You think they would just put out a few porta-potties.

That way, good citizens could just tip them over if they see a crackhead or a whore going into one.

4 posted on 10/05/2006 11:27:10 AM PDT by dirtboy (Good fences make good neighbors)
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To: Sopater

they should just place the toilets next to a police station...


5 posted on 10/05/2006 11:27:34 AM PDT by Republicus2001
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To: Sopater

McGreevy tidies up his booth for what's expected to be a busy day

6 posted on 10/05/2006 11:27:54 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: Sopater

Another good reason not ever to visit Seattle.


7 posted on 10/05/2006 11:27:56 AM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus (Aside from abortion, perversion, sedition and corruption, what do the Democrats stand for?)
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To: Sopater
BTTT I am SO glad I don't live in a city!

Carolyn

8 posted on 10/05/2006 11:28:00 AM PDT by CDHart ("It's too late to work within the system and too early to shoot the b@#$%^&s."--Claire Wolfe)
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To: Sopater

You can't substitute technology for good old fashioned common sense.................


9 posted on 10/05/2006 11:30:59 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple (Seeking the Truth in Folks.)
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To: CDHart
I am SO glad I don't live in a city!

It makes me glad I don't live in any city.
10 posted on 10/05/2006 11:31:29 AM PDT by msnimje (Seriously, if it REALLY were a religion of PEACE, would they have to label it as such?)
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To: Sopater
A camera will go up outside one of the toilets to deter criminals, though the utility hasn't selected one yet, said Sandy Kraus, the project manager.

It may deter criminals to some extent but not entirely. And does it give you any comfort while you're being beaten to a pulp to know that a camera is recording what is being done?

11 posted on 10/05/2006 11:32:15 AM PDT by OldPossum
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To: Sopater
A camera will go up outside one of the toilets to deter criminals, though the utility hasn't selected one yet, said Sandy Kraus, the project manager.

Why don't they take a cue from the c-stores and play classical music outside the toilets to keep away the riff-raff? A camera will just end up getting vandalized.

12 posted on 10/05/2006 11:33:12 AM PDT by Disambiguator (If the Democrats were a stock, I would short them.)
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To: Sopater
The decadelong debate over giving people public toilets downtown appeared to be over when the Seattle City Council decided in 2004 to spend nearly $700,000 a year to maintain five high-tech toilets downtown and on Broadway in Capitol Hill.

What a deal.

13 posted on 10/05/2006 11:44:06 AM PDT by beltfed308 (Nanny Statists are Ameba's.)
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To: Sopater

Why can't the Seattle police do their jobs and arrest the drug dealers and pros?

To say a public toilet is bad is like saying that a gun is bad because it is used by someone to commit a crime.


14 posted on 10/05/2006 11:48:23 AM PDT by GeorgefromGeorgia
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To: Sopater

You can mark San Antonio as being the next gullible city to install these.


15 posted on 10/05/2006 11:54:32 AM PDT by BigTex5
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To: Sopater
"They haven't worked out the way we'd hoped..."

* chuckle *

Oh how many government projects could/should have this carved into their tombstones!

16 posted on 10/05/2006 11:57:37 AM PDT by TChris (The United Nations is suffering from delusions of relevance.)
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To: Sopater

Bums complaining about how the crackheads and dealers and hookers are ruining the neighborhood. Gotta love it.


17 posted on 10/05/2006 12:02:50 PM PDT by RichInOC ("Hey, mister, you can't do that here!" "I'm not doing it here. I'm gonna do it waaaaay over there.")
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To: Sopater
This is my hi tech toilet.


18 posted on 10/05/2006 12:07:59 PM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: Sopater
What a colossal waste of tax payer dollars!

And still, they arrogantly crap and pee on the STREET!
19 posted on 10/05/2006 12:11:51 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: Sopater
The city decided in 2004 to spend nearly $700,000 a year to maintain five high-tech toilets.

Hello! for $175,000/yr per toilet, couldn't they just hire full time attendants?

20 posted on 10/05/2006 12:13:23 PM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: nmh

We have these all over San Francisco. When Decaux, the French company that owns and maintains them got the contract to put them around the city, "disability advocates" insisted that ALL of them be accesible to disabled people. Decaux told us that the regular ones, which only hold one person, were a better fit, but the "disability advocates" threatened to sue.

So we have dozens of them. The one I pass by every day next to the BART station is used by the heroin-addict hookers doing their "monicas" for cash. No one else can use it.


21 posted on 10/05/2006 12:17:33 PM PDT by sdillard
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To: TC Rider

That is just a staggering sum of money. If that's the going rate, I'm going to become a washroom attendant.


22 posted on 10/05/2006 12:20:20 PM PDT by babble-on
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To: Sopater

Around 15 years ago, after Willie Brown visited Paris. San Francisco decided to install 25 of these self-cleaning toilets.

They were originally going to be small single person toilets, like the one's you see in Europe. But the "Advocates for the Handicapped" yelled and screamed that these were too small for a wheelchair to do a 360 degree turn, and was a violation against the ADA.

The French makers warned that if you use these large handicap toilets, people will "copulate in them and do drugs". They suggest that only a few be handicap toilets and that after 10 minutes a warning alarm would sound and then the doors would automatically open. The civil libertarian howled.

Then is was found out that it would cost 25 cents to use them (necessary to defray the cost and maintance). Homeless advocates yelled that it was unfair. So government now hands out tokens to bums and dope fiends to use the toilets.

When the toilets were installed, merchants screamed because these things are huge, imagine a 10x10x20 green metal box in front of your store. So they had to be relocated.

Since their installation, all the dire predictions have come true. The toilets are primarily used by drug fiends to shoot dope and smoke crack. Even bums don't use them because of that. Most are heavily vandalized. They've had to remove them from skidrow.

Suprisingly the only area were these toilet have been a success is in the tourist area of Fisherman's Wharf. But then again most tourist use the toilets for what they're designed for as opposed to using them to copulate and do drugs.

There is no greater symbolism of the failure of Socialism then these public toilets.


23 posted on 10/05/2006 12:22:32 PM PDT by PanzerKardinal
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To: Sopater
But...but...but there intentions were good! I mean...don't they...like...get any credit for that???

Mindless Leftist dogooders would have the entire U.S.A. in the toilet if the rest of us gave serious attention to their nitwit approach.

The most mindnumbing thing about them--though not the most frightening--is their ever predictible self-congratulation on the benevolence of their intentions--as though the rest of us didn't have good intentions. It invariably escapes these twits that many "solutions" don't have to be tried to know that they won't work--or will make matters even worse.

24 posted on 10/05/2006 12:33:41 PM PDT by Savage Beast (9/11 was never repeated thanks to President Bush and his expert--and ATTENTIVE--leadership!)
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To: babble-on

Between that and a tip jar they could probably clear 250k/year.

(You might want to run those tips through a wash cycle in the Maytag though)


25 posted on 10/05/2006 1:55:17 PM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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