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Would Defeat in Iraq Be So Bad?
Times.com ^ | 10/15/06 | Leslie Gelb

Posted on 10/16/2006 9:58:48 AM PDT by World_Events

To me, the relentless mud slide of insurgency and civil war in Iraq is leading to unacceptable strategic disaster for the U.S. There appear to be no viable paths to follow in order to avoid it. Neither "staying the course"--whatever that Bush strategy now means--nor the Democrats' idea of exiting by timetables offers a semblance of success. Both approaches produce only nightmares: general chaos; Iraq's center taken over by terrorists emboldened by victory over America, their pockets bulging with Iraqi oil money; southern Iraq controlled by pro-Iranians or Iran itself; and Iraq's neighbors picking at the nation's carcass until regional war erupts and prompts oil prices to hit $150 a barrel.

But while those fears have a real hold on me, I can't help transporting myself back more than 30 years to that day in Vietnam when I felt certain the dominoes would fall throughout Asia and destroy America's strategic position there and elsewhere. I was wrong about those dominoes, as were almost all foreign-policy experts.

It was April 28, 1975. The last U.S. officials scrambled aboard helicopters, bound for home, heralding defeat as North Vietnamese troops tramped into the South Vietnamese capital. And it was the most ignominious kind of defeat, one that came after a decades-long war, after tens of thousands of Americans and Vietnamese had been killed, after our Presidents had pledged it would never come to that.

We expected China and the Soviet Union would be ascendant, that allies like Japan and South Korea would doubt our resolve and reposition themselves, and that North Vietnam would claim the rest of Indochina. Almost none of that happened.

(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: appeaseniks; cutandrun; defeaticrats; lesliegelb; subversives
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To: SFC Chromey

And the Afghanis, who were the next target of communist aggression.


41 posted on 10/16/2006 10:25:45 AM PDT by dirtboy (Good fences make good neighbors)
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To: Perdogg

I call him 'gal' for a reason. He is nothing but a panty-waist globalist.


42 posted on 10/16/2006 10:25:52 AM PDT by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascists, now ACT LIKE IT!)
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To: World_Events
I was wrong about those dominoes, as were almost all foreign-policy experts.

Tell that to the two million that perished in the Cambodian Killing Fields.

43 posted on 10/16/2006 10:26:45 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: World_Events
Would Defeat for al Qaeda in Iraq Be So Bad?

If you're the media....YES.

44 posted on 10/16/2006 10:27:49 AM PDT by Allegra (Super Elastic Bubble Plastic!)
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Dear Leslie. Your leader?:

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

45 posted on 10/16/2006 10:28:10 AM PDT by b4its2late (I'm not insensitive, I just don't care.)
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To: roaddog727
Defeat in Iraq is not an option.

There's plenty of tough talk on this thread. We don't need tough talk. We need ideas on how to win. "Stay the course" ain't working. If we can't come up with something better than that, eventually the cut-and-run crowd is going to get their way.

Many Americans either don't see the downside in leaving Iraq in the state it's in now, or they don't care about the consequences. They'd be happy to leave tomorrow, and to hell with the results. The left's plan of retreat may be dumb, but it's a plan. Without new strategies on how to win, we're eventually going to lose moderate and Republican support for the war entirely.

So, defeat is certainly an option, because left wants it, and the center and right are losing their will to fight. Rallying them will frankly require better leadership and better military thinking that what we've gotten so far.

46 posted on 10/16/2006 10:28:11 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: brooklyn dave

Staying the course in Iraq is the only strategy for victory, all other strategies are cut and run and hence defeat, it is as simple as that.


47 posted on 10/16/2006 10:31:20 AM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
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To: kesg
This is why sane people do not entrust Rats and other leftists with national security or foreign policy.

Yes and they just keep confirming it.  Democrats cannot be trusted with our security..EVER.

48 posted on 10/16/2006 10:31:49 AM PDT by 1035rep
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To: brooklyn dave

The terms neo con is only used by liberals, third party voters and Buchananites, all those are very bad with liberals being the worst, which category do you fit in?


49 posted on 10/16/2006 10:32:38 AM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
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To: LibLieSlayer

What you said.


50 posted on 10/16/2006 10:33:00 AM PDT by 1035rep
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To: brooklyn dave
I agree.

These Arabs are hell-bent on killing each other and anyone who comes in between them.

I know a guy who just got back from Iraq and his job was to help good Iraqi guy's win elections. He told me in every other part of the world people vote on issues but Muslims vote for whoever their Iman tells them to.

The concept of democracy and the lives of our finest are being wasted on ungrateful savages.

Break up Iraq into 3 provinces and redeploy to the Kurdish one. Let the Sunni's and the Shia tear each other to shreds.
51 posted on 10/16/2006 10:33:15 AM PDT by Blackirish
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To: World_Events
>Would Defeat in Iraq Be So Bad?

Maybe we should just
surrender to the Muslims
all around the globe,

let them run this world
for a while. In a few years
they'll be so damn tired

of stupid young kids
scumbag politicians and
millions and millions

of executions
of people who just will not
stop drinking beer or

stop wearing Ally
McBeal dresses, the Muslims
will be begging us

to take back over
and let them get back to their
caves and tents and prayers . . .

52 posted on 10/16/2006 10:34:19 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: All

Rush is talking about this article right now...


53 posted on 10/16/2006 10:34:40 AM PDT by texan75010 (Future NFL Dad - http://mysite.verizon.net/luker33/)
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To: World_Events
Excuse me but we WON the War in Iraq!

Winning the Peace is a long term process where a 10th Century Dictatorship must be transformed into a 21st Century Democracy!!

I know that Kerry and Company can go on and on about their "plans" but historical trends, (The March of Time!) aren't so easity managed.

Time WILL tell but not by some some arrogant DIMWIT

54 posted on 10/16/2006 10:35:16 AM PDT by Young Werther
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To: Steel Wolf

What we need to do in Iraq is not politically viable.

We need to go in there with overwhelming force (because THAT is what the arabs understand) and absolutely CRUSH the insurgency.

We should hermetically seal the borders (Syria and Iran) and interdict both weapons and PAX.


55 posted on 10/16/2006 10:36:40 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BullS##t does not get bridges built)
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To: World_Events
I can't help transporting myself back more than 30 years to that day in Vietnam when I felt certain the dominoes would fall throughout Asia and destroy America's strategic position there and elsewhere. I was wrong about those dominoes, as were almost all foreign-policy experts.

Three million dead Cambodians would cancel their subscription to Time, if they had one.

56 posted on 10/16/2006 10:37:03 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: mhking
They truly don't understand the consequences of losing Iraq now do they? From North Korea to Iran, Afghanistan, even Somalia the moral victory to the extremest will rally them like nothing else we could ever do. Un-freaking believable......
57 posted on 10/16/2006 10:38:07 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly catching hell for posting without reading the article since 2004)
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To: brooklyn dave
Face it, we are in there for oil.

You say this like it's a bad thing. Of course we're there for oil. Oil is the lifeblood of our industrial civilization - without it, our whole society would grind to a halt. Fighting for oil is literally fighting for the American way of life. The only real reason to bring democracy to Arabia is to make them more amenable to selling us their oil without trying to kill us with the profits. As a grand strategy, that's more sensible long term than propping up one dictatorship after another ad infinitum. It might not work, but the other way was definitely not working either.

58 posted on 10/16/2006 10:38:19 AM PDT by Argus
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To: MPJackal
What few fail to understand, outside of funding a resurrected Al Quaida, we will have lost all hope of ever garnishing allies in that region of the world again.

Once Iraq is given to the Jihadists, Afghanistan will soon follow....the leaders of Afghanistan will not dare trust us to stay the course and will seek other allies to side with....Surrendering Iraq will have a devastating impact throughout the region....

For the few years of a false tranquility we may buy ourselves, we will than face a much more hardened and determined enemy in Southern Europe, SE Asia, and eventually on our shores...

Whether going into Iraq was warranted is no longer the issue; we are there and must not fail.

God help us if we cut and run....we will pay an extremely high price for such a short sighted course of action....IMHO...
59 posted on 10/16/2006 10:38:26 AM PDT by PigRigger (Donate to http://www.AdoptAPlatoon.org - The Troops have our front covered, let's guard their backs!)
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To: brooklyn dave

Your response is stunning in its lack of insight. But then, what can I expect from a fella who uses "neo-con" in all apparent seriousness?


60 posted on 10/16/2006 10:39:40 AM PDT by r9etb
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