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FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Cnet ^ | 10/17/2006 | Declan McCullagh

Posted on 10/17/2006 10:08:05 PM PDT by Panerai

FBI Director Robert Mueller on Tuesday called on Internet service providers to record their customers' online activities, a move that anticipates a fierce debate over privacy and law enforcement in Washington next year.

"Terrorists coordinate their plans cloaked in the anonymity of the Internet, as do violent sexual predators prowling chat rooms," Mueller said in a speech at the International Association of Chiefs of Police conference in Boston.

"All too often, we find that before we can catch these offenders, Internet service providers have unwittingly deleted the very records that would help us identify these offenders and protect future victims," Mueller said. "We must find a balance between the legitimate need for privacy and law enforcement's clear need for access."

The speech to the law enforcement group, which approved a resolution on the topic earlier in the day, echoes other calls from Bush administration officials to force private firms to record information about customers. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, for instance, told Congress last month that "this is a national problem that requires federal legislation."

Justice Department officials admit privately that data retention legislation is controversial enough that there wasn't time to ease it through the U.S. Congress before politicians left to campaign for re-election. Instead, the idea is expected to surface in early 2007

(Excerpt) Read more at news.com.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: bigbrother; dataretention; fbi; internet; isp; itsforyourowngood; ourdearleadersloveus; theywantitallfolks; theywilltakecareofus; weloveourdearleaders
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1 posted on 10/17/2006 10:08:06 PM PDT by Panerai
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To: Panerai

Uh oh...here we go.

I just came from a thread about Internet addiction...they are all going to be over here in a few minutes...:)


2 posted on 10/17/2006 10:11:32 PM PDT by rlmorel (Islamofacism: It is all fun and games until someone puts an eye out. Or chops off a head.)
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To: Panerai
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, for instance, told Congress last month that "this is a national problem that requires federal legislation."

The words of a tyrant.

3 posted on 10/17/2006 10:14:33 PM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: Panerai

Depending on what they want to track, anyone can be found guilty. Visiting a conservative site, for instance.


4 posted on 10/17/2006 10:15:10 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: penelopesire
Well isn't this just tooooo interesting? All manner of questions have formed in my head.
5 posted on 10/17/2006 10:17:39 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Panerai

Robert Mueller can make a hermetic seal between his lips and my ass.


6 posted on 10/17/2006 10:17:58 PM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: rlmorel
The big problem is not the known ISP address regarding the net IMO, but when a wireless laptop goes to some public or free business source and does bad things or communications on the net. That kind of stuff is much harder to trace.

As far as privacy on the Internet, well consider it as private as a conversation on a public school bus.
Also figure any Email you ever made is on the net still and still accessible and readable by agencies wanting to get them.
7 posted on 10/17/2006 10:18:31 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Panerai
This is precisely why Congress and the courts never focused on enforcing the level playing field in telecoms.

Much easier to just have to deal with Comcast or other cable co. and then deal with the local phone company that provides DSL.

8 posted on 10/17/2006 10:19:29 PM PDT by ikka
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To: rlmorel
Yeah here I am.....reporting for duty.

If you always think about how a law can be abused by the police or government, then I don't like it.

If you feel that you are safely practicing your 1st amendment rights and aren't going to be in anyone's crosshairs...then it's a good law.

9 posted on 10/17/2006 10:23:45 PM PDT by DCPatriot ("It aint what you don't know that kills you. It's what you know that aint so" Theodore Sturgeon)
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To: Sir Gawain

Better watch out, language like that against the government might soon be enough to have you declared an enemy combatant.


10 posted on 10/17/2006 10:26:49 PM PDT by Lord_Baltar
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To: Panerai

I'm waiting for the usual suspects to come marching in and defend this LATEST assault on our liberties at the hands of our Benevolent Leaders.


11 posted on 10/17/2006 10:30:27 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: Lord_Baltar
Better watch out, language like that against the government might soon be enough to have you declared an enemy combatant.

Don't worry, between Congressional oversight and FISA Courts, such abuses could never happen here...oh, wait.

Never mind.

When we get to Gotmo, I call top bunk.

12 posted on 10/17/2006 10:33:09 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: TheLion

You'd be guilty of thoughtcrime. As was the judicial nominee who was asked if he was now or had ever been a member of a Constitutionalist organization.

Conservative thought WILL be criminalized if the left gets their way.


13 posted on 10/17/2006 10:33:35 PM PDT by weegee (Remember "Remember the Maine"? Well in the current war "Remember the Baby Milk Factory")
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To: Panerai

This plan is made of 24k failure.


14 posted on 10/17/2006 10:37:43 PM PDT by Constantine XIII
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To: A CA Guy

Nick Berg loaned his laptop AND his email password to Jose Padilla in Oklahoma and we are told that nothing funny happened.

EVEN WITH email and internet wiretaps on US citizens, they'd still miss the plots. This is all for putting the pieces together after the fact.

We had the pieces to determine the 9-11 threat (if not the full scope). People were prevented from talking to one another.


15 posted on 10/17/2006 10:38:04 PM PDT by weegee (Remember "Remember the Maine"? Well in the current war "Remember the Baby Milk Factory")
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To: Sir Gawain

Amen to that. They need to fire Gonzales and scrap the department. The Homeland Security Deparment is going to cause more trouble than it's worth.


16 posted on 10/17/2006 10:41:29 PM PDT by Niuhuru
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To: weegee
Nick Berg loaned his laptop AND his email password to Jose Padilla in Oklahoma and we are told that nothing funny happened.

Nick Berg's horrible death notwithstanding, what ARE the odds of something like that, eh?

I can't even begin to fathom them.
17 posted on 10/17/2006 10:42:09 PM PDT by mkjessup (The Shah doesn't look so bad now, eh? But nooo, Jimmah said the Ayatollah was a 'godly' man.)
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To: weegee

I'm a terrorist plotting my activities in America and I know this has been enacted. Here's what I do.

1. Communicate from public hot spots. Whether a McDonald's, Starbucks or public park with Wi-Fi access.

2. I use municipal provided Wi-Fi from a laptop by going to out of the way places. You know we'll have to start looking for guys using laptops in dark alleys.

3. I rent an apartment in a multi-unit dwelling and look for unsecured connections in my building never having subscribed to an ISP.

Those three scenarios alone make it 100% impossible for this to be an effective law enforcement or intelligence tool. There are way too many ways to access the internet on shared connections.

I didn't even start on using libraries, Kinko's/FedEx stores wired connections where public internet access is possible on a wired connection.

As much as I would like to see government have tools to track would be terrorists this has more problems than solutions.


18 posted on 10/17/2006 10:42:30 PM PDT by PittsburghAfterDark
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To: Wormwood

"Benevolent Leaders"

Sounds like a fluffy name for a deranged triumverate of dictators. Much like "Dear Leader" is for Kim Jong Il.


19 posted on 10/17/2006 10:43:09 PM PDT by Niuhuru
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To: weegee

Or if Hillary gets elected.


20 posted on 10/17/2006 10:44:33 PM PDT by Niuhuru
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To: Panerai

http://tor.eff.org/


21 posted on 10/17/2006 10:48:15 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Sir Gawain

Terrorists plan terror in houses and apartments all over the U.S.. We need cameras in every private abode as:Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, for instance, told Congress last month that "this is a national problem that requires federal legislation."


22 posted on 10/17/2006 10:49:29 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: weegee
Hey look, the Internet is a wide open readable field of information.
What makes you think it all isn't gathered filtered and monitored down to every word?

I figure the only reason they are asking for the permission on the ISP thing is due to them having to eventually have a legal way to attach them to what they already know exists.

It's open public pathways and they are monitored.
23 posted on 10/17/2006 10:50:11 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: cynwoody

Sounds like TOR is a haven for perverts.


24 posted on 10/17/2006 10:51:38 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
Terrorists plan terror in houses and apartments all over the U.S.. We need cameras in every private abode

Child molesters are everywhere, and they can look like anyone! Obviously, the only solution to this CLEAR and PRESENT problem is to incarcerate every American over the age of 17.

Please think of the children.

25 posted on 10/17/2006 10:52:33 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: A CA Guy

I figure there is at least one Fed in FR at all times.


26 posted on 10/17/2006 10:52:48 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: Sir Gawain

do a ZABA search for alberto gonzales.

they are as thick as cucaraches


27 posted on 10/17/2006 10:53:24 PM PDT by shadowcat
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To: philetus

I think that there would be people reading this for good ideas connected to the Feds and I hope being a lot of people here are very smart, but IMO this forum is more likely to pray for America than prey upon it.

I think there are no worries no matter who looks here IMO.


28 posted on 10/17/2006 10:55:12 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Panerai

bump


29 posted on 10/17/2006 10:55:33 PM PDT by lesser_satan (EKTHELTHIOR!!!)
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To: philetus

Why stop there, with today's technology, a listening chip could be installed in every American citizen, that could be activated that would "broadcast" every word spoken.

Of course, certain words could be set-up for "auto activation" such as anything against the government or officials.


30 posted on 10/17/2006 10:55:38 PM PDT by Lord_Baltar
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To: philetus
I figure there is at least one Fed in FR at all times.

Please remain in view.

31 posted on 10/17/2006 10:55:41 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: Wormwood

Child molesters are everywhere, and they can look like anyone! Obviously, the only solution to this CLEAR and PRESENT problem is to incarcerate every American over the age of 17."

You realize the wardens would be children?


32 posted on 10/17/2006 10:55:43 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
You realize the wardens would be children?

Why do you hate America? /s

33 posted on 10/17/2006 10:57:07 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: A CA Guy
The big problem is not the known ISP address regarding the net IMO, but when a wireless laptop goes to some public or free business source and does bad things or communications on the net. That kind of stuff is much harder to trace.

Yes, well, then the feds will have to start having people register their net adapters. Every adapter has a unique MAC address hard coded into it, which is then associated with its assigned IP address.

CompUSA sales droid: Can I help you sir?

Customer: Yes, I'd like this ethernet adapter please.

CompUSA sales droid: Of course sir. If I could just have you fill out this "yellow sheet", we'll get you taken care of.

Yes, I know there is MAC spoofing, but if this crap is allowed to pass, then that will become a felony, even if used for private in-house puposes. And then there's IPv6, where we'll have enough address space to assign an IP address to to every electronic device produced for the next millenium. All registered with your friendly Big Brother.

And of course to follow up; the feds will require that any and all ISP/AP's be registered, and that all have back doors for the NSA supercomputers to download and parse their daily transaction logs.

Next we'll hear from the folks who'll insist that: "If you have nothing to hide, you don't have anything to worry about."

34 posted on 10/17/2006 10:57:46 PM PDT by AFreeBird (If American "cowboy diplomacy" did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it.)
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To: AFreeBird
Next we'll hear from the folks who'll insist that: "If you have nothing to hide, you don't have anything to worry about."

I'm sure it will sound more pithy coming from Tony Snow.

35 posted on 10/17/2006 10:59:56 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: Wormwood

Why do you hate America? /s"

HUH?


36 posted on 10/17/2006 11:00:30 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

Please have your sarcasm detector serviced. My irony emitter seems to be in working order.


37 posted on 10/17/2006 11:02:13 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: AFreeBird
You will always get around it.

Even lots of homes have open wireless and a bad guy can detect and use the net without entering your home.

I hear in parts of CA you can ride in your car up and down some major streets and maintain Internet contact.

In Fullerton and most libraries across the nation, there is free undetectable wireless Internet.

That is the biggest insecurity when dealing with bad guys IMO.
38 posted on 10/17/2006 11:03:50 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy

Starbucks all have free wireless.
Maybe Starbucks is a front.
Do FBI agents eat a better class of pastries?


39 posted on 10/17/2006 11:07:31 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
Starbucks gives you time in exchange for money spent.

There are other places that do have open wireless.
Restaurants, libraries, cities, hotels and things we are not thinking of.

There are some websites where you can look up these spots.

Called hot spots I think.
40 posted on 10/17/2006 11:09:55 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Wormwood

Please have your sarcasm detector serviced. My irony emitter seems to be in working order."

I knew I forgot something this week.Thanks.


41 posted on 10/17/2006 11:10:24 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
This kinda sh*t is what really P's me Off.

We got cameras at half the intersections in America to make sure J6P doesn't cut any corners.

Now they want to keep track of every single phone call you might make, every check you might cash, and every breast you might check out on the net.

MEANWHILE LAWBREAKERS STREAM ACROSS THE BORDER!!!
BILLIONS OF DOLLARS GET SENT OUT OF THE COUNTRY WITH NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!



WE AMERICANS HAVE TURNED INTO A BUNCH OF WUSSES!!!


42 posted on 10/17/2006 11:13:05 PM PDT by djf (I'm not ISLAMOPHOBIC, just BOMBOPHOBIC!! Whether that's the same is up to Islam!!!)
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To: A CA Guy
Even lots of homes have open wireless and a bad guy can detect and use the net without entering your home.

Of course, because people are too stupid to read the docs and properly set up their AP's.

But if the MAC and the IPv6 is registered (and no strawman purchases allowed), then you have a small group of people to target.

Of course, the router/WiFi makers will have to start turning on basic encryption and disabling ESSID broadcast by default. And will also require the user, unlike now, to set up their AP properly, and of course with mandatory on-line registration with the proper fedgov authorities.

Give an inch...

Oh and the next thing to be outlawed; PGP or personal encryption programs. Or if allowed, then keys will have to be registered, with the fedgov having a copy, or a third key, for decrypting your communications.

... take a mile...

43 posted on 10/17/2006 11:16:17 PM PDT by AFreeBird (If American "cowboy diplomacy" did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it.)
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To: AFreeBird
Bad guys could easily make their own PCMCIA card for wireless (what ever you call that card) and slap it in a non wireless laptop to enable and bypass your protection IMO.

Computers are easy to build and to bypass and registration.

It is unstoppable IMO.
44 posted on 10/17/2006 11:18:55 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy
Bad guys could easily make their own PCMCIA card for wireless (what ever you call that card) and slap it in a non wireless laptop to enable and bypass your protection IMO.

Not if all devices are registered. If that happens you can black list anything not in the database. Not in the database, not allowed on the net. Or, is subject to intense , unrelenting scrutiny from the second you connect. And if you try and spoof an existing address, that's already connected, red flags go up all over the place.

Trust me, it might be seemingly impossible to you now, but computers are very good at dealing with large amounts of mundane data. And they'll only get better at it; about every 18 months.

Do not let you guard down on crap like this just because you don't think it's possible.

It is a bad law; sets a bad precedent; and will open up a Pandora's box you don't want opened.

45 posted on 10/17/2006 11:28:12 PM PDT by AFreeBird (If American "cowboy diplomacy" did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it.)
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To: AFreeBird
The non legal market for parts would be endless.

Computers are so available and everywhere that you will get non monitored parts endlessly without trouble IMO.

It's not doable unless you ban wireless Internet IMO.
46 posted on 10/17/2006 11:32:58 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Wormwood
Obviously, the only solution to this CLEAR and PRESENT problem is to incarcerate every American over the age of 17.

Funny. I finally found 'Wild in the Streets' on DVD and watched it a few weeks ago. You just reminded me of that movie.

47 posted on 10/17/2006 11:35:01 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Panerai

Plenty would love to search homes without a warrant, too; doesn't make it a good idea.


48 posted on 10/18/2006 12:43:52 AM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: rlmorel

Why not imprison the entire population, so if one turns out to be a criminal, he is already in jail!

Brilliant!


49 posted on 10/18/2006 2:46:32 AM PDT by observer5 (It's not a War on Terror - it's a WAR ON STUPIDITY)
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To: Panerai

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt


50 posted on 10/18/2006 2:58:10 AM PDT by metesky (My investment program is holding steady @ .05 a can.)
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