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A SECOND LOOK AT THE SECOND LAW : CAN ANYTHING HAPPEN IN AN OPEN SYSTEM ?
Math Dept., Texas A&M University ^ | Granville Sewell

Posted on 10/19/2006 4:36:37 PM PDT by SirLinksalot

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To: SirLinksalot

INTREP [TLAC]


21 posted on 10/19/2006 9:24:10 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
To say that the dynamics of the 2nd Law only refers to heat radiation is like saying the law of inertia only refers to billiard balls.

I can barely read this but even I know the article doesn't say that.

Nor was that an allegation of it.

22 posted on 10/19/2006 9:26:18 PM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
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To: be4everfree
Would it be correct to say that all matter, in a closed system, is degrading so to speak ?

It need not "degrade", but without an energy input, and without causing more "degradation" (Not really the right term, increase in entropy or randomness would be more correct) somewhere, it's can't "un degrade".

23 posted on 10/19/2006 9:31:42 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: babygene
The reason this is "OK" is that they move heat from one place to another. They do not generate heat from some other form of energy.

Sure they do, more heat energy is rejected to the outside world than was removed from the air inside the house. It came from the "work" (which could be a gorilla turning a crank. :) ) needed to pump the heat "uphill" from cold to hot.

24 posted on 10/19/2006 9:34:51 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Nor are they the ones I learned in graduate chemical thermodynamics courses.

The sad thing is that according to his CV, he has an MS in Mechanical Engineering, in addition to his 5 years earlier PhD in Math. (that'a mite odd, but not unheard of)ME is the very department where Engineering Thermo (and Fluids) is usually taught. Have to wonder if they made him take the undergrade course for his M.S.?

Even though the paper indicates he's in the Math Department of A&M, you'll notice that the link takes you to UTEP (U. Texas El Paso), where he's been since '83. He has been or was Visiting Prof at A&M '04-'06. ( a mite unusual, "visiting" is generally for a single year or even semester).

25 posted on 10/19/2006 9:49:50 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: SirLinksalot
The layman understands quite well that explaining the appearance of human brains is a very different sort of problem from finding the causes of earthquakes;

The phrase "the appearance of human brains" is ambiguous, as it stands. For example, we may ask, "How many human brains appeared last year?" Of course, we usually use the term "developed" or "grew" in this context.

But they do in fact "appear", if not from nothing, from very little - an invisible speck, in fact. What about the second law in this case? Isn't it an obstacle to this spontaneous appearance of this incredible order? Indeed it is! And the reason it can happen is the continual flow of energy maintained by cellular metabolism.

Well, you might scoff, "The DNA provides the order! the instructions!" Instructions to whom? The DNA is a molecule. Its expression unfolds as a simple thermodynamic reaction. Why doesn't the DNA simply decay or dissipate? Where is the maintenance crew that keeps it going? Why isn't it like the 747 abandoned in the junkyard?

The point is that the unique nature of the spontaneous and undirected processes of life, including reproduction, ought to inform our thinking about the natural history of these life processes on the planet earth.

26 posted on 10/19/2006 9:54:17 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: El Gato
"needed to pump the heat "uphill" from cold to hot"

I don't know if there's a point in discussing this with you, you clearly don't understand the physics. Of course There are IR losses which end up as extra heat on the hot side, however the bulk of the heat transfered comes from the cold side, not from IR losses.

An analogy to a refrigeration system would be a conveyor belt that moved a bucket of hot water from one side of the room to the other. Although it does take power to run the conveyor, that power is not directly related to the amount of heat transfered.
27 posted on 10/19/2006 10:26:49 PM PDT by babygene
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To: SirLinksalot

Food for thought and discussion. Thanks.


28 posted on 10/19/2006 10:40:15 PM PDT by OriginalIntent (Undo the ACLU revision of the Constitution. If you agree with the ACLU revisions, you are a liberal)
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To: El Gato
This guy's version of the first and seconds laws of thermodynamics are not the ones I was taught in an Engineering Thermodynamics.

That is funny because they are the same ones I learned in Engineering Thermodynamics. Putting them in equation form does not contradict the article. Saying "people decrease entropy all the time" supports an intelligent design as the only verifiable way things in a local space can contradict entropy. But even the refrigerator example does not really contradict it. Take a 'fridge, hook it to a battery and put it in a 'closed system'. For a while it will decrease the local entropy of a part of the system, until finally it runs out of batteries and breaks down. And even while it is working the total disorder of the close system will be increasing. And when the power runs out even the local order will degrade away. BUT none of that contradicts what he said. The whole refrigerator example requires first a human to wander up to the closed system and stuff a really HUGE piece of order into it, a refrigerator. Lets say the statistical order of the refrigerator (the likelyhood of it forming randomly) is the amount of 'order' added to the system at the start of the experiment. Moving a little heat around, in a probability sense, is a drop in the bucket compared to the order increase of stuffing a refrigerator into the box in the first place.
29 posted on 10/20/2006 6:37:19 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: dr_lew
Why doesn't the DNA simply decay or dissipate? Where is the maintenance crew that keeps it going?

There are enzyme systems that DO act as maintenance crews to repair dna damaged by radiation and decay.
30 posted on 10/20/2006 6:40:10 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: bobdsmith
If anyone here cannot be bothered to read all that then I will sum up the spirit of the article for you in an analogy.

Good summary. The poor boy's brain's made of mush.

31 posted on 10/20/2006 6:42:19 AM PDT by ahayes (On the internet no one can hear you scream.)
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To: El Gato

Gah! From the quality of this article I assumed he was an undergrad!


32 posted on 10/20/2006 6:44:32 AM PDT by ahayes (On the internet no one can hear you scream.)
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To: bobdsmith
Your analogy doesn't work, actually -- primarily because you seem to have seriously missed the point Sewell is making.

The Second Law says (among other things) that within a given system, entropy increases globally, even if it might increase at particular locations within the system. In a simple example of heat transfer, one side of you can be warmed by a fire (more order, local decrease in entropy), even as the net entropy of the room is increasing. His basic question is, in the case of so-called self-ordering systems, where does the "order" come from globally, such that it can increase, locally?

That's a pretty good question.

Having laid out his point, we can now turn to your analogy. Sewell actually addresses your analogy head-on, in his comment that "order may walk in through the door." As it applies to the airplane/gravity problem, we'd apply that idea in the obvious way: the airplane would always fall down, unless some other force "walked through the door" to hold it up.

There are problems with Sewell's discussion. Your analogy, however, fails to address them.

33 posted on 10/20/2006 2:49:26 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: ahayes

Gah! From the quality of your replies, I'd say you don't have a real response. Care to take an honest crack at it?


34 posted on 10/20/2006 2:50:17 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: TalonDJ

These enzymes are, of course, coded for in the DNA, activated by mechanisms coded for in the DNA, etc. etc. etc. All cellular activity transpires spontaneously, and in accord with physical law, without the direction or intervention of any external agent.


35 posted on 10/20/2006 4:08:31 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: TalonDJ
Moving a little heat around, in a probability sense, is a drop in the bucket compared to the order increase of stuffing a refrigerator into the box in the first place.

This is exactly backwards, and it is just what is wrong with the examples of entropy increase, such as broken teapots, that Sewell cites.

Entropy is a calcuable quantity of a physical system in thermal equilibrium, and the "order" imposed by macroscopic manipulation of objects implies an incredibly miniscule decrease in entropy, which is dominated by the dynamics at the level of atoms and molecules.

The concept of entropy lends no weight whatsoever to intuitive appeals for the rejection of self-organizing physical systems.

36 posted on 10/20/2006 4:57:15 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: r9etb

I'm sorry, I'm not in a mood lately to suffer fools.


37 posted on 10/23/2006 6:00:01 AM PDT by ahayes (On the internet no one can hear you scream.)
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To: Oberon

ping for later.


38 posted on 10/23/2006 6:05:12 AM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Nor are they the ones I learned in graduate chemical thermodynamics courses.

Beat me to it!

39 posted on 10/23/2006 6:15:44 AM PDT by grey_whiskers
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To: Centurion2000
Why should we think that random mutation accounted for all of the developments in life?

One answer, from a naturalistic perspective, is something like this: 1. The mutations that led to speciation were either directed by intelligence, or they happened randomly. 2. It's outside the realm of science to consider the existence of some intelligence that manipulates the mutation of organisms. 3. Therefore, from a scientific point of view, the mutations in question must have happened randomly.

This line of reasoning, of course, has holes in it you could fly a C-5 through. The first of these is that point 1 is a false dichotomy; just because a process happens naturally, without exterior guidance, emphatically does not mean that the process is random. A large subset of science is devoted to the derivation of mathematical formulae that describe the operation of the universe, and there's no reason to believe that speciation doesn't operate according to its own attendant formulae.

I didn't go through this exercise to construct a straw man, however. I just mean to point out what I see may be inarticulated assumptions in the common naturalistic point of view.

40 posted on 10/23/2006 6:18:34 AM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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