Skip to comments.Can't Muslim men control their urges?
Posted on 11/01/2006 3:50:00 PM PST by MadIvan
All the debate about Muslims and the veil has centred around women. What should they wear and how should they wear it? Perhaps its time we looked at what the veil tells us about Muslim men.
The Koran is little help. The verse cited in support of women wearing headscarves or veils is hardly specific: And say to the believing women to cast down their eyes, and guard their private parts, and reveal not their adornment save such as is outward. Islamic scholars have argued ever since about what precisely that means.
The presumption, though, is that immodest dress, however defined, will inflame mens lust. But more extreme Muslim clerics suggest also that if it does, it is the woman who is to blame. Sheikh Taj Aldin al-Hilali, the Mufti of Australia, recently preached: If you take uncovered meat and place it outside . . . and the cats come to eat it . . . whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meats? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.
Unsurprisingly, this has led to a furore in Australia, with moderate Muslims speaking out against the Mufti, who finally agreed to take leave from preaching this week after suffering a minor heart attack. For, coming soon after several particularly nasty cases of gang rape by young Muslim men in Australia, the sheikhs sermon seemed to be absolving the attackers from responsibility.
In the Sydney case to which he was referring, the 18-year-old victim was raped 25 times by up to 14 men. She hadnt been walking, skimpily dressed, down a dark alley at 3am. She had been sitting on a train, wearing her best suit for a job interview and reading The Great Gatsby. Yet the rapists still called her a slut and an Aussie pig.
Of course only a minuscule fraction of Muslim men are rapists; the rest are upright, law-abiding citizens. But the premise of the dress code is still that mens impulses cannot be controlled unless women hide themselves. Why should not Muslim men start to take more responsibility for their sexual desires, rather than expecting women to dress absurdly modestly, lest the sight of a bare arm or even a lock of hair should lead them to uncontrollable sexual urges?
The Mufti also preached that, in adultery, Responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement. Cant the man be expected to resist the enticement? And what if he entices her?
If it were true that human beings were incapable of reining in their sexual desires, then men should dress modestly, too otherwise we women would be tempted to jump on men in T-shirts or even those not wearing hats. That is what the Victorians believed: both men and women were covered head to toe for the sake of modesty.
It is the asymmetry that I object to in Muslim thought, the fact that men can wear what they like while women cannot. Are women supposed to be more evolved than men, more in control of their passions? In that case it seems odd that they are not even allowed to enter many mosques, let alone preach in them.
No, Muslim men seem to want to have it both ways. They want complete leadership of their community, with womens voices seldom heard, but then they are happy to reduce themselves to the status of animals feral cats in the Muftis sermon when it comes to sex, unable to resist the charms of a woman with an uncovered head.
The issue ranges beyond the Muslim community. For its not much fun for the rest of womankind, dressed perfectly modestly in their own eyes, to know that, because their heads are bare or their calves exposed, many Muslim men will see them as tarts.
What is more, Western women are prepared to cover right up if they visit a strict Muslim country where local people would be offended by skimpy shirts or shorts. Yet there are still many Muslim women living in liberal Britain who continue to wear the full veil, hiding their face, whatever offence or alienation it might cause here. For Aishah Azmi, the Dewsbury classroom assistant, to refuse to uncover her face to a class of young children is as culturally insensitive as it would be for me to walk through a Middle Eastern souk in a pair of shorts.
It takes time for cultural change to take its course. I dont blame Muslim men who were brought up in more traditional countries, such as Pakistan, for holding traditional views about womens garb. But it is incumbent on the next generation, born and brought up here, to re-examine their parents prejudices in the context of this countrys values.
Young British Muslim men, surrounded by respectably dressed non-Muslim women who do not feel it necessary to cover their hair or swathe themselves in shapeless black cloth, ought to realise that such a society can exist without horrific levels of sexual predation. After all, in head-covering Pakistan, according to its Human Rights Commission, a woman is raped every two hours and gang-raped every eight hours.
Whose fault is that?
Their tiny endowments have Muslim men in a perpetual rage which can only be assuaged by brutalizing women.
Clearly not, that's why they wear diapers. The one on their head is a spare for emergencies.
Quote: "In the Sydney case to which he was referring, the 18-year-old victim was raped 25 times by up to 14 men. She hadnt been walking, skimpily dressed, down a dark alley at 3am. She had been sitting on a train, wearing her best suit for a job interview and reading The Great Gatsby. Yet the rapists still called her a slut and an Aussie pig."
Unbelievable....and soon coming to a town near you.
No, no they can't.
No, no they can't.
Almost men will control themselves if there are sufficient social or legal penalties for not doing so.
These creeps are encouraged by their culture to rape women. They should be shot.
That is, "almost all men."
Which is why at some point Western women will arm themselves and will not hesitate to shoot a Muslim man as soon as they feel at all threatened. They reap what they sow...
Oh I don't know,, could it be ............................
Goat: "My rear end wishes they could!"
"So many sheep, so little time..."
Psychosexual illness runs rampant among Muslim males.
Believe me I know, but not from personal experience Thank The Lord.
"The presumption, though, is that immodest dress, however defined, will inflame mens lust."
I'm of the opinion that God made men and women with a fair amount of lust, for a purpose.
Islam presents an inconsistent notion. On one hand, sex is to be AVOIDED.
On the other men take multiple wives, and have many children with each. Sex here is hardly avoided.
I don't get it. And if I was a woman, I'd get it even less.
where the fu*k are the australian men??????
The Islamic law that prohibits women from going out in public unless accompanied by a male relative is wrong. It should be that Muslimn men should not be allowed in public unless accompanied by their mothers.
I have developed a real pathological Hatred of these korananimals,
time for some medieval punishment as regards muslims
If that were true Western men would constantly be chewed up with lust. No telling what they would be committing.
Indirectly, Eastern men are being taught they are weaker and not as good as Western men. So what Argus says is in a big sense true. What they suffer from is not lust of Western women but resentment. Its no wonder they are 1200 years behind the times.
Was that supposed to be a rhetorical question, Ivan?
Not enough bacon in their diet...
Very interesting question, Oyez.
I have never heard any of them, in the 5 years I've been paying attention, ask their "Allah" to give them strength or wisdom, just this "If it's Allah's will" stuff.
I suspect they don't think they need to pursue goodness to be one with the heaven of the Koran, or their virgins.
Thanks for making that point.
"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
The Muslims have rejected God (the real one) and have accepted a cult that tries to deflect the blame for their own sins onto others.
Sometimes I read the question, and the answer is so obvious that it makes me wonder why the question was asked in the first place.
It is good that the new lurkers can read the facts about these things though.
Thanks for posting.
....These creeps are encouraged by their culture to rape women....
un mitigated drivel
Not feasible in New York.
Not legal in New York, yet if things become bad, feasible.
Deflect the blame for their own sins onto others....that sounds like the perfect religion for John Kerry.
When I was a young teenage girl, with a head full of mush, I used to attend teen dance clubs. I went to one that was full of young arab males. They treated the girls horribly and made all of us very uncomfortable. I never went back and have been wary of arab males ever since.
Until they feel enough pressure to adopt better attitudes toward women, they will never get along in our society.
Are you the cat or the meat?
What a crock. Name a single time in American history when a woman was responsible for rape. And don't give the the line about, "In courts, lawyers blamed..."
It is the job of a lawyer to blame someone besides his client. It was also a factor in determining if a woman had consentual sex and then changed her mind.
But we have never said that a woman showing her ankles should be raped because she was raw meat, and men cats.
"...values regarding modesty..."
Values that proscribe rape and murder for not walking around like a rag-draped zombie in 2006?
Values that ok the murder of a woman by her parents, siblings or anyone else for her manner of dress?
When in our most restrictive period-say the Victorian age, when even the legs of furniture were covered- did anyone declare rape and death upon 'immodest' women? When did our culture take fashion punishment to that level?
Values set a standard of approval, or disapproval ,in a culture. There is NO comparison between how Western cultures react to those who break those rules and the reaction of Islam. When someone in Western cultures tries the ' she deserved it because of her dress' bit, re. attacking a woman, sane people see it for the insane excuse it is.
Islam ,itself, blames the woman and not only exonerates the men, but ENCOURAGES them to do treat a woman like an animal based on her attire!
Shunning and disapproval are lightyears apart from rape and execution!
If you don't see a difference between " Look at that half-naked woman, she looks like a slut dressed like that." and " Look at that woman without a hijab/burkha, rape/kill the slut!" it's frightening as hell.
Values regarding modesty are not what is being condemned.
What is being condemned is an inability, or a wanton disregard, for self-control in the face of temptation.
And now is the time to condemn that.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her
Let's cut out the nonsense.
Well- you're going to hear this.
How many women do you think would CHOOSE to obscure their humanity totally, or suffer in layers of clothing, if there were not an element of FEAR involved?
The fear of physical punishment and/or death is very real for some of these women. We can't know how much of their attire is 'chosen' because of 'modesty' until the intimidation and fear is removed as a factor.
With all the reports of family members actually killing their wives/daughters/sisters etc for 'immodest behavior' why do you insist that modesty-not fear- is the motivation for most Muslim women?
Even those who think they choose because of 'modesty' have been programmed to think that way. Psychological oppression, cultural pressure and group-think all play a part in what choices they think they have and are 'free' to make.
Buried Alive: Afghan Women Under the Taliban
by Jan Goodwin
February 27, 1998 Thirty thousand men and boys poured into the
dilapidated Olympic sports stadium in Kabul, capital of Afghanistan.
Street hawkers peddled nuts, biscuits and tea to the waiting crowd. The
scheduled entertainment? They were there to see a young woman,
Sohaila, receive 100 lashes, and to watch two thieves have their right
hands amputated. Sohaila had been arrested walking with a man who was
not a relative, a sufficient crime for her to be found guilty of adultery.
Since she was single, it was punishable by flogging; had she been married,
she would have been publicly stoned to death.
As Sohaila, completely covered in the shroud like burqa veil, was forced
to kneel and then flogged, Taliban "cheerleaders" had the stadium ringing
with the chants of onlookers. Among those present there were just three
women: the young Afghan, and two female relatives who had
accompanied her. The crowd fell silent only when the luckless thieves
were driven into the arena and pushed to the ground. Physicians using
surgical scalpels promptly carried out the amputations. Holding the
severed hands aloft by the index fingers, a grinning Taliban fighter warned
the huge crowd, "These are the chopped off hands of thieves, the
punishment for any of you caught stealing." Then, to restore the party
atmosphere, the thieves were driven in a jeep once around the stadium, a
flourish that brought the crowd to their feet, as was intended.
These Friday circuses, at which Rome's Caligula would doubtless have
felt at home, are to become weekly fixtures for the entertainmentÄstarved
male residents of Kabul. Now that "weak officials" have been purged
from key ministries, says the city's governor, Manan Niazi, who like many
of the regime's officials is also a mullah, the way has been cleared for such
displays. "We have a lot of such unpunished cases, but the previous civil
servants didn't have the courage to do what we are doing. These people
have now been replaced, and these events will continue." In fact, the next
scheduled program, as announced, would be one stoning to death and
un mitigated drivel -- bert
I agree. Why did you post it, bert?
Tabari IX:113 Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Quran.
Tabari I:280 Allah said, It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent. Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.
Quran 4:3 If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice (to so many), then only one, or (a slave) that you possess, that will be more suitable. And give the women their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, eat it with enjoyment, take it with right good cheer and absorb it (in your wealth).
Quran 4:11 Allah directs you in regard of your Childrens (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females . These are settled portions ordained by Allah.
Bukhari:V1B22N28 The Prophet said: I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful. When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, All the favors done for them by their husbands.
Muslim:B1N142 O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady said: Why is it, Allahs Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.
Quran 4:43 Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving. [The Quran claims women are unclean and pollutedworse than dirt.]
Bukhari:V4B55N547 The Prophet said, But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.
Quran 33:59 Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better.
Quran 4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.
V5B59N523 When we reached Khaybar, Muhammad said that Allah had enabled him to conquer them. It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him. Her husband had been killed, so Allahs Apostle selected her for himself. He took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad where her menses were over and he took her for his wife, consummating his marriage to her, and forcing her to wear the veil.
Bukhari:V5B59N524 The Muslims said among themselves, Will Safiyah be one of the Prophets wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions?
Ishaq:593 From the captives of Hunayn, Allahs Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another.
Bukhari:V3B48N826 The Prophet said, Isnt the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man? The women said, Yes. He said, This is because of the deficiency of a womans mind.
Ishaq:584 Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.
Ishaq:185 In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.
Quran 24:31 Say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty except what (must) appear; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display them except to their husbands...
Quran 24:34 Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And heres the freedom-to-pimp card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.
Ishaq:469 The Apostle said, Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sad.
Ishaq:496 Ali [Muhammads adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.
Ishaq:496 Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth. So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, Tell the Apostle the truth.
Quran 24:1 (This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Quran 24:6 And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.
It's all the fault of Islam being full of crap!
How long can this idiocy survive? As long as muslim men support it. And they love it.
It should be that Muslim men should not be allowed in public unless accompanied by their mothers."