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From Russia, minus love
The Age ^ | November 25, 2006 | Vanora Bennett

Posted on 11/24/2006 5:34:19 PM PST by A. Pole

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To: M. Espinola
''at least 80% of the Russian population' supports their leader. "
Take them at their word for it. It is not a compliment re the population, quite the opposite, for when has that population ever produced a decent leader? see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1743732/posts?page=3#3
51 posted on 11/25/2006 10:08:59 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

Did you read post #48?


52 posted on 11/25/2006 10:09:29 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

same thing. Those having polonium for the nukes are not going to part with it. Dirty bomb is best done with high grade nuclear waste - spent fuel rods, or concentrates from their re-processing. Polonium is way too valuable a stuff to waste on a dirty bomb. Besides, Litvinenko was no threat to iranians. WhyAnd to suggest a suicidal deal is the top of absurdity. kegebuns [like litvinenko] went through enough military-style training - if there were polonium spill next to the food, they would be running out of there screaming, to burn their clothes and to take good long showers. Most certainly they would not be eating there. Besides, polonium for the nukes does not happen as a loose dusty powder [too dangerous in manufacture and usage], nor as dilute solution to spray on the food. Weapons grade nuclear materials come as compact bodies, with protecting [chemically and mechanically] containers. So, even the attempted assembly of a working nuke in London does not hold water.


53 posted on 11/25/2006 10:30:32 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob
I was thinking that he may have been part of a smuggling ring quietly smuggling Polonium 210 etc. on behalf of Russia to destinations such as Iran. The dirty bomb idea occurred to me towards the beginning of my thinking on an alternative theory on Litvineko's death. The following from Epstein's website changed everything:

"Then there is the polonium 210 used to explode the bomb. The AIEA determined that Iran has obtained polonium 210, an isotope. And the likely source is Russia, which uses it (in combination with beryllium) to ensure the chain reaction leading to a nuclear explosion begins at the right time."

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/2003question/IransWMD.htm

I would think it at least deserves a thorough looking into at the very minimum.
54 posted on 11/25/2006 10:42:07 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Smuggling to iran from russia needs not to be done through England [why not New Zealand as a transit point?]- they share a water border in Caspian. Simpler, easier, no prying eyes, less possibility for the things going awry. As William of Occam used to say, "thou shalt not complicate". Why scratch one's left ear with the right hand from behind over one's groin?


55 posted on 11/25/2006 10:50:13 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob
All good points. But it still doesn't rule out that they were involved in a smuggling operation. If so, the natural question would be where was the Polonium destined for, and why through (or to) England? Of course, he could have been just murdered by Putin's Russia. Or he could have been working for Putin's Russia and died by accident. Given what I have learned about "former" KGB defectors, I'm leaning toward the latter. As I said, time will (hopefully) tell--GGG
56 posted on 11/25/2006 10:57:21 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Of course, he could have been just murdered by Putin's Russia.<BR.
Precisely. And no alternatives, if one has any idea of what putin's [and even without putin's] russia is. It is in the character.


57 posted on 11/25/2006 11:07:49 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

==It is in the character.

It is also in their character to smuggle polonium 210 to rogue regimes.


58 posted on 11/25/2006 11:10:04 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Government-to government transfer [even through special services] would be done by an airplane from one of their military fields straight to tehran or some other place in iran. Do not complicate. Do not allow your imagination to run too wild. Do not see magicians, dungeons and dragons where there are none - just a bunch of the worst scoundrels you could imagine. They are not geniuses, though.


59 posted on 11/25/2006 11:15:41 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

It's still possible that the P 210 was destined for England itself. There is a large and radical Muslim community there with connection to rogue regimes that would love to get their hands on it (for use in England, or elsewhere). Or, conversely, it may have been destined for England to accomplish the very purpose that Gordievsky would have us believe...to murder Litvinenko. To my mind it's too early to tell. But the fact that Gordievsky is pushing this theory makes me very suspicious. I Googled Gordievsky and came up with the following excerpt. I know Golitsyn is a controversial figure, so let's put him aside for the moment. It is the evidence against Gordievsky himself that concerns me (Epstein has the same distrust and suspicions about him btw):

"Oleg Gordievsky, an officer in the KGB’s First Chief Directorate, joined this growing list of double agents in 1974, when he first began leaking secrets to England’s MI6. In 1985, he defected to the West under suspicious circumstances. Although supposedly arrested by the KGB on suspicion of spying for England, he was not executed. 'A generation earlier he would simply have been liquidated,' writes Gordievsky (with a co-author) of himself. 'Nowadays the KGB had to have evidence.'8 Starting with this obvious lie, Gordievsky’s story becomes even more absurd. Despite his arrest for treason, he claims the KGB nevertheless allowed him enough freedom that he could repeatedly make contact with British agents and even escape the Soviet Union itself — on foot.9 To top it all off, his family was subsequently released from the Soviet Union.10 "

"Unlike Golitsyn, who still remains under deep cover to prevent assassination by the Soviets, Gordievsky maintains a high-profile life in London. Gordievsky insists that the KGB has had no spies in British intelligence since 1961, and ridicules former MI5 officer Peter Wright for fingering over 200 suspects — including former MI5 director Sir Roger Hollis — as a result of investigations under project FLUENCY. Gordievsky also bitterly denies Golitsyn’s revelation of the existence of Department D in the KGB, while he staunchly defends Nosenko as a genuine defector. Gordievsky has advised such prominent individuals as Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, and his 1990 book, KGB: The Inside Story, has been published widely.11"

http://www.attacreport.com/ar_archives/art_iswr5_cia2.htm


60 posted on 11/25/2006 11:28:00 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

It is still possible that I win Powerball jackpot, although I do not even play lottery. Do not complicate. I see the case is open and shut, with the only thing left to do is naming, tracing, and liquidating the kegebuns involved.


61 posted on 11/25/2006 11:35:18 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

As someone else mentioned, there could be a variety of reasons why the P 210 was smuggled to England. All we know is it got as far as London. There are a variety of reasons why it could have been smuggled there. For instance, it could have been in transit, a test or to provide bona fides, etc. The most obvious conclusion, the one that is being broadcasted to anyone who will listen by Gordievsky, may just be a cover. I'm not ruling out your interpretation, but let's remember the KGB have carried out many similar operations in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. On that, there is no doubt in my mind.


62 posted on 11/25/2006 11:44:46 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

"When you are dealing with the wilderness of mirrors,"

What wilderness of mirrors?

What part of "Russians are the worst genocidal murders of all time" do you not understand?

http://genocidecurriculum.org/


63 posted on 11/25/2006 11:53:30 AM PST by spanalot
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To: spanalot

I understand that very well. It's one of the reasons, combined with the KGB's history and their building of Iran's nuclear program, that makes me believe there is more to this picture than meets the eye. If my suspicions are correct, this case involves Russia in something far worse than the murder of a Putin critic.


64 posted on 11/25/2006 11:56:28 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: A. Pole
"Shove your bear
Up your rear
And keep it thear"
It's hard to teach the kids the proper spelling of "there" when they like rhymes.
65 posted on 11/25/2006 11:58:22 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

==naming, tracing, and liquidating the kegebuns involved.

On that, we both agree. I would only add conclusively figuring out why the P 210 was there in the first place, and, potentially, where it was going.


66 posted on 11/25/2006 12:08:04 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

it was going in Litvinenko's food.


67 posted on 11/25/2006 12:09:36 PM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob; spanalot
Either the Russians thought of an extremely novel use for Polonium 210 (to murder), were conducting a test (such as the ease they can smuggle it past Western detection), proving someone's bona feds, or they were smuggling it to rogue elements (inside or outside England) and/or rogue regimes. I think these are all viable possibilities at this point, especially after reading the following:

The agency's chief executive, Pat Troop, said the high level of polonium-210 indicated Litvinenko "would either have to have eaten it, inhaled it or taken it in through a wound."

...

Chris Lloyd, a British radiation protection adviser, said it would be relatively easy to smuggle polonium into a country, because its alpha radiation would not set off radiation detectors.

...

Professor Dudley Goodhead, a radiation expert at the Medical Research Council, said that "to poison someone, much larger amounts are required and this would have to be manmade, perhaps from a particle accelerator or a nuclear reactor."

...

The Health Protection Agency said the use of polonium as a deliberate poisoning would be "an unprecedented event." Several experts also said they were unaware of any other known poisonings from the element.

"I've been in radiation sciences for 30-odd years and I'm not aware of any such incident," said Roger Cox, director of the agency's center for radiation, chemicals and environmental hazards.

http://wtop.com/?nid=383&sid=985629&sidelines=1
68 posted on 11/25/2006 1:01:52 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GSlob; spanalot

Also...

What is the risk to other people from the dose Mr Litvinenko received?

It cannot pass through the skin, and must be ingested or inhaled (or delivered through a wound as per above--GGG) into the body to cause damage.

And because the radiation has a very short range, it only harms nearby tissue, so those who came into contact with him are at very little risk.

William Gelletly, professor of physics at the University of Surrey, said: "Polonium-210 is very unlikely to have contaminated any staff who treated Mr Litvinenko or anyone who came in contact with him since they would have had to ingest or breathe in the contaminated fluids from his body."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6181688.stm


69 posted on 11/25/2006 1:11:05 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

"If my suspicions are correct, this case involves Russia in something far worse than the murder of a Putin critic."

Nobody's biting - if it walks and talks like a duck - guess what?

This is another in a LONG line of enemies of the Kremlin that have been liquidated - well over 100 million by now.


70 posted on 11/25/2006 1:13:12 PM PST by spanalot
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To: spanalot

That's too bad. Well, I pretty much have it narrowed down to either Litvinenko was setup by Gordievsky (probably a phony defector) and co., or he died accidentally in a smuggling operation. Time will tell (hopefully).


71 posted on 11/25/2006 1:19:34 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

"Well, I pretty much have it narrowed down to either Litvinenko was setup by Gordievsky (probably a phony defector) and co., or he died accidentally in a smuggling operation."

Pray tell by what leap of faith are you ignoring Putin's duplicity in liquidating his enemies.


72 posted on 11/25/2006 1:27:02 PM PST by spanalot
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To: spanalot
I'm not ignoring Putin's duplicity in liquidating his enemies. Either Litvinenko was genuine and thus set up by phony defector Gordievsky and co., or Litvinenko is himself a phony defector who was working with Gordievsky when he died in a smuggling operation gone bad (there have been plenty of documented cases where the very people smuggling radioactive materials die of radiation poisoning). As I said in my last reply to you, to my mind, both are still open possibilities. So I will be looking for evidence in both directions. BTW, the Soviets/Russians have a long history of sending phony defectors. Why should this time be any different (whether it be Gordievsky, or both of them)?
73 posted on 11/25/2006 2:42:16 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

"Litvinenko is himself a phony defector "

Next you'll announce Christmas is canceled as he was also Santa Claus.


74 posted on 11/25/2006 3:34:28 PM PST by spanalot
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To: Sawdring
Who poisoned Yushchenko? (just two years ago)

Certainly Moscow did not do it. If they did they would use something else than dioxin. As well you can try to poison someone with DDT. It is loony and dumb to believe such conspiracy theory.

75 posted on 11/25/2006 6:51:12 PM PST by A. Pole (Slavery is a natural and logical consequence of the free market.)
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To: A. Pole
Arrogant bastards want people to know they murder whoever they feel like murdering, and Putin is and always has been the lowest sort of snake.
76 posted on 11/25/2006 6:52:48 PM PST by JasonC
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To: GSlob
Of course, he could have been just murdered by Putin's Russia.

More likely he was murdered by someone who wanted to embarrass Putin during the Helsinki meeting with EU.

There is one assassination for which one could suspect Russia. It was death of Yandarbiev in Qatar Such killing makes sense.

Litvinenko was a little fish. There are much more attractive targets in UK but it is very dubious that Russians would risk alienating the British.

77 posted on 11/25/2006 6:59:34 PM PST by A. Pole (Slavery is a natural and logical consequence of the free market.)
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To: JasonC
Arrogant bastards want people to know they murder whoever they feel like murdering, and Putin is and always has been the lowest sort of snake.

You logic is circular. You think that Putin ordered idiotic crimes because he is a nasty (and stupid) "snake", and this that he ordered it proves that his is indeed such a character.A because B and B because of A.

If he wanted to play such game he would start with Zakayev. It would be more useful and would gain more respect.

78 posted on 11/25/2006 7:11:51 PM PST by A. Pole (Slavery is a natural and logical consequence of the free market.)
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To: A. Pole
No, I know he is a snake because he does things like sell nukes to the worst criminals on the planet then covers their backsides diplomatically. That he also arrests exiles and murders his domestic opponents is just character acting filler. Destroying civilization as far as in him lies, heads the bill of indictment. He is a snake, he always has been a snake, he's on a rocket sled to a warm place and grabbing all the souls he can for the fryer. Yours included.
79 posted on 11/25/2006 7:20:22 PM PST by JasonC
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To: spanalot

No. But I do maintain that Litvinenko at a minimum got himself mixed up the a phony defector, Gordievsky. Gordievsky is either connected to the murder, or in on the smuggling operation IMO. And since he is still among the living, part of the investigation into Litvinenko's premature demise should focus on him.


80 posted on 11/25/2006 7:39:31 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: M. Espinola

LOL! You are too funny. "When an evil empire returns"


81 posted on 11/25/2006 7:48:19 PM PST by MarMema
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To: A. Pole
If he wanted to play such game he would start with Zakayev.

Maybe. It's definitely a thought. One I admit to not minding actually.

82 posted on 11/25/2006 7:54:14 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema; M. Espinola; GSlob

Many would argue that it never left in the first place.


83 posted on 11/25/2006 8:02:44 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: MarMema

=If he wanted to play such game he would start with Zakayev.

==Maybe. It's definitely a thought. One I admit to not minding actually.

Why is that exactly?


84 posted on 11/25/2006 8:14:41 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
"Many would argue that it never left in the first place."

The many would be right.

85 posted on 11/25/2006 8:45:37 PM PST by M. Espinola (Freedom is never free)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Of couse, it has never left. See # 31 on this very thread.


86 posted on 11/25/2006 11:55:21 PM PST by GSlob
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To: A. Pole

One cannot embarrass putin even if one wanted to, just like one cannot make sh*t even more sh*tty. It is a logical impossibility. And as for "making sense" - it has to make sense in the "Russity" reference framework. MadIvan summed it up for you [I believe] excellently, either on this or on another thread. "The message to defectors - we can get you anywhere, and we do not give a damn about it - was delivered, and delivered effectively" [quoting in paraphrase]. So, barbari sunt, barbarice egit. And returning to the start - how could one embarrass a barbarian, especially the chief one? His own barbarity makes him immune to any further embarrassment.


87 posted on 11/26/2006 12:07:12 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GarySpFc
"The businessman is going to fund the coup with his own money, earned by honest labor, he said. He was also deliberately making his intentions public, he added. It is vital that the Russian people realized just talking was not enough, that it is time for action.' As for personal security, Berezovsky said, he did not feel he was in any danger. 'My security is guaranteed by the state I live in. The UK takes care of all its residents, including the immigrants.'"

Yes, very interesting. But doesn't Berezovsky remember the fate of Georgi Markov in London? He best stay clear of all umbrellas...

88 posted on 11/26/2006 7:00:57 AM PST by Donna Lee Nardo (DEATH TO ISLAMIC TERRORISTS AND ANIMAL AND CHILD ABUSERS.)
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To: GarySpFc

Sheesh, not to mention the latest UK casualty, Litvinenko, also.

There is a rich report in the Independent UK today about a theory that Litvinenko poisoned himself to discredit Putin! How fantastic is that? The sources used by the Independent must be the FSB...

I cannot post the article here or even an excerpt though.


89 posted on 11/26/2006 7:10:45 AM PST by Donna Lee Nardo (DEATH TO ISLAMIC TERRORISTS AND ANIMAL AND CHILD ABUSERS.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

I heard that they are now trying to spin this as a smuggling ring of ex-KGB folks dealing with this type of material...Somehow it kind of makes sense...

But why if you are doing your own money making deal would you accuse Putin of poisoning you, if you screw up and get exposed???

None of the other folks in this deal got sick...

Nobody's really making a big deal out of this issue...


90 posted on 11/26/2006 4:54:00 PM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: stevie_d_64
Polonium-210 would not make the others sick. It is only effective against internal organs if it is swallowed, inhaled, or punctured through the skin (such as a needle or a wound). Also, what better cover could you have if you were working for Putin's Russia than being anti-Putin? I'm not saying this is in fact the case. But it has to be held out as a possibility, especially given the fact that Gordievsky was close to the victim. Gordievsky is almost certainly a phony defector (did you see my link about him?).
91 posted on 11/26/2006 5:04:25 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Yeah, that may be true...

That reverse psychology only works on mear mortals! hehehe

Maybe they wanted us to think that he was anti-Putin, while he was really pro-Putin, but thinking that we knew he was pro-Putin, but anti-Putin just to throw us off...

You know...Come to think of it...There's just too much Putin going around, don't you think???

I need some air...


92 posted on 11/27/2006 5:24:11 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: stevie_d_64

That's the crap you have to deal with when you enter the "wilderness of mirrors." \


93 posted on 11/27/2006 6:30:57 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GSlob; A. Pole

Polonium-210 [the most recent diagnosis as per poison used] is available in the corner mom and pop stores, one presumes. ==

Accually you may buy it on Internet. Link: http://www.unitednuclear.com/isotopes.htm .. The price isn't big: $69. What you say now?:)


94 posted on 11/28/2006 3:25:31 AM PST by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: GodGunsGuts
A uranium-conversion plant at Bushehr that can be used for uranium enrichment.

Wrong! The Iranians, not Russians, have constructed a uranium conversion plant at Isfahan, developed a uranium mine at Saghand, and constructed a pilot uranium enrichment plant at Natanz.
95 posted on 11/28/2006 4:35:17 AM PST by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Sawdring

Even Yushchenko's people now deny the Russians had anything to do with the poisoning.


96 posted on 11/28/2006 4:36:34 AM PST by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Donna Lee Nardo
But doesn't Berezovsky remember the fate of Georgi Markov in London? He best stay clear of all umbrellas...

Let's see, Putin has a nobody named Litvinenko murdered, but ignores Berezovsky who is at least one million times more of a threat.
97 posted on 11/28/2006 4:43:06 AM PST by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: GarySpFc

You read way too far into my point. My point is simply that the UK is obviously NOT 100% safe for Russian dissidents and the like, as Boris appears to claim.

And thanks for your helpful e-mails.


98 posted on 11/28/2006 8:32:47 AM PST by Donna Lee Nardo (DEATH TO ISLAMIC TERRORISTS AND ANIMAL AND CHILD ABUSERS.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
"Also, what better cover could you have if you were working for Putin's Russia than being anti-Putin?"

Good! You sound like you might have what it takes to be an intelligence analyst. The alphabets here in the U.S. are always looking for people like you.

99 posted on 11/28/2006 9:05:32 AM PST by Donna Lee Nardo (DEATH TO ISLAMIC TERRORISTS AND ANIMAL AND CHILD ABUSERS.)
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