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Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, John Adams and James Madison: Young America’s Fight with Islamism
Hawai`i Free Press | 01/03/07 | Andrew Walden

Posted on 01/03/2007 11:01:38 AM PST by AndrewWalden

America has been fighting Islamists for longer than many realize. Even before independence was declared, American ships were pirated and their Christian crews enslaved by Muslim pirates operating under the control of the “Dey of Algiers”—an Ottoman Islamist warlord ruling Algeria. When the colonists rebelled against British rule in 1776, American ships lost Royal Navy protection. A Revolutionary-War era alliance with France offered French protection to US ships, but it expired in 1783. Immediately US ships came under attack and in October 1784 the American trader “Betsey” was taken by Moroccan forces. This was followed with Algerians and Libyans (Tripolitans) capturing two more US ships in 1785.

Lacking the ability to project US naval force in the Mediterranean, America tried appeasement. In 1784, Congress agreed to fund tributes and ransoms in order to rescue US ships and buy the freedom of enslaved US sailors.

In 1786 Thomas Jefferson, then US ambassador to France, and John Adams, then US Ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Dey’s ambassador to Britain, in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress’ vote of funding. To the US Congress these two future Presidents later reported the reasons for the Muslims’ hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts.

“…that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

Sound familiar?

In this 1790 satirical piece, his last published letter, Ben Franklin, in the midst of a Congressional debate on slavery, compares the arguments of pro-slavery Southerners (“Mr. Jackson”, a South Carolina delegate) to the arguments of a hypothetical Algerian Muslim “Mussulmen” pirate, Sidi Mehemet Ibrahim. The rationalizations, justifications and excuses of Franklin’s “Sidi” are almost word-for-word those of the Georgia and South Carolina Congressional delegates. The Algerian Islamic “Erika” sect was an allegory to members of the American Christian “Quaker” sect who in 1790 unsuccessfully petitioned Congress, with Franklin’s support, for an end to the importation of slaves from Africa. (Text and link below)

Ben Franklin died on April 17, 1790 just twenty-five days after his letter was published.

Congress in 1790 did not come up with a means to end the slave trade, much less slavery itself. This is largely because representatives of South Carolina and Georgia threatened secession which would have led to war. As with any appeasement of evil to avoid war, the problem continued and festered, growing worse until finally a much larger war--the Civil War-- broke out 71 years later causing 600,000 US casualties. Also killed by appeasement; untold numbers of African slaves during the Atlantic crossing and while held in slavery in the US.

And the Muslims? By 1800 the annual tribute and ransom payments first agreed in the mid 1780s amounted to about $1 million--20% of the federal budget. (For fiscal year 2007, 20% of the US revenues would equal $560 billion.) In May, 1801 Yussif Karamanli, the Pasha of Tripoli, declared war on the US by chopping down the flagpole in front of the US Consulate. Seventeen years after appeasement and tribute payments had begun; President Thomas Jefferson led America into the First Barbary War.

From May 1801 to June 10, 1805 sailors and Marines of the young American nation fought battles immortalized in a line of the Marine Hymn: “…to the shores of Tripoli”. As American forces approached Tripoli on land threatening to capture it, Karamanli suddenly became interested in negotiations. The war ended with a treaty exchanging prisoners, Americans giving Karamanli another $60,000 in ransom and an agreement from the Muslims to cease attacks on US ships.

But for a Muslim to keep his word to an Infidel at the expense of opportunities to expand Islamic power is the Islamic equivalent of a mortal sin. In 1807 Muslim pirate attacks on American ships began anew. As a result Americans led by President James Madison fought Algerians in the Second Barbary War in 1815, leading to another treaty under which the Muslims paid American $10,000 for damages. The Algerian ruler almost immediately repudiated the new treaty after the US departure and again began piracy and the enslavement of captured Christian sailors necessitating an 1816 Anglo-Dutch shelling of Algiers and ultimately the colonization of Algeria in 1830 and Tunisia in 1881 by France and Libya in 1911 by Italy. By then most of the Islamic world was under Christian domination. With the Ottoman Empire defeated in WW1, secularist Turkish rebels in 1923 overthrew the last Islamic Caliphate, destroying the pinnacle of Islamist power and ending a line of succession allegedly reaching back to Mohammed.

The trend of Muslim defeat began to reverse after the Second World War even though many Muslim leaders had backed Hitler’s Third Reich. Most Islamic countries became independent of Christian colonial rule between 1946 when Jordan achieved independence and 1971 when Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and the UAE finally became independent of Britain. The next year Muslim terrorists killed 11 Israeli athletes and one German police officer at the Olympic Games in what became known as the Munich massacre, an attack which some see as opening the current war between Islam and the West. In an echo of the Barbary Pirates, an airliner was hijacked in October 1972 causing Germany to release to Libya the two terrorists being held for trial in the attack.

And the Quakers? Today the Quaker “American Friends Service Committee” no longer demands resolute action against slavery. They are on the other side--serving the modern equivalents of Franklin’s allegorical Sidi Mehemet Ibrahim by demanding that America once again appease the Islamists. Their demand for withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan in the face of Islamist attacks aimed to re-enslave the populations of those countries will get US into a much larger war a lot sooner than the 17 years to took for appeasement to lead to war at the end of the 18th Century.

Ben Franklin’s use of an imaginary Algerian pirate to satirize a pro-slavery Congressman shows his clear understanding of the danger posed by Islamism. Modern-day Americans would do well to consider the lessons of the War with Islamism fought by Thomas Jefferson and again by James Madison and this alternate meaning in Franklin’s final words of warning.

XXX

Full Text of Ben Franklin’s last letter:

On the Slave-Trade To the Editor of the Federal Gazette March 23d, 1790

Sir,

Reading last night in your excellent Paper the speech of Mr. Jackson in Congress against their meddling with the Affair of Slavery, or attempting to mend the Condition of the Slaves, it put me in mind of a similar One made about 100 Years since by Sidi Mehemet Ibrahim, a member of the Divan of Algiers, which may be seen in Martin's Account of his Consulship, anno 1687. It was against granting the Petition of the Sect called Erika, or Purists who pray'd for the Abolition of Piracy and Slavery as being unjust. Mr. Jackson does not quote it; perhaps he has not seen it. If, therefore, some of its Reasonings are to be found in his eloquent Speech, it may only show that men's Interests and Intellects operate and are operated on with surprising similarity in all Countries and Climates, when under similar Circumstances. The African's Speech, as translated, is as follows.

"Allah Bismillah,&c. God is great, and Mahomet is his Prophet."

"Have these Erika considered the Consequences of granting their Petition? If we cease our Cruises against the Christians, how shall we be furnished with the Commodities their Countries produce, and which are so necessary for us? If we forbear to make Slaves of their People, who in this hot Climate are to cultivate our Lands? Who are to perform the common Labours of our City, and in our Families? Must we not then be our own Slaves? And is there not more Compassion and more Favour due to us as Mussulmen, than to these Christian Dogs? We have now about 50,000 Slaves in and near Algiers. This Number, if not kept up by fresh Supplies, will soon diminish, and be gradually annihilated. If we then cease taking and plundering the Infidel Ships, and making Slaves of the Seamen and Passengers, our Lands will become of no Value for want of Cultivation; the Rents of Houses in the City will sink one half; and the Revenues of Government arising from its Share of Prizes be totally destroy'd! And for what? To gratify the whims of a whimsical Sect, who would have us, not only forbear making more Slaves, but even to manumit those we have.

"But who is to indemnify their Masters for the Loss? Will the State do it? Is our Treasury sufficient? Will the Erika do it? Can they do it? Or would they, to do what they think Justice to the Slaves, do a greater Injustice to the Owners? And it we set our Slaves free, what is to be done with them? Few of them will return to their Countries; they know too well the great Hardships they must there be subject to; they will not embrace our holy Religion; they will not adopt our Manners; our People will not pollute themselves by intermarrying with them. Must we maintain them as Beggars in our Streets, or suffer our Properties to be the Prey of their Pillage? For men long accustom'd to Slavery will not work for a Livelihood when not compell'd. And what is there so pitiable in their present Condition? Were they not Slaves in their own Countries?

"Are not Spain, Portugal, France, and the Italian states govern'd by Despots, who hold all their Subjects in Slavery, without Exception? Even England treats its Sailors as Slaves; for they are, whenever the Government pleases, seiz'd, and confin'd in Ships of War, condemn'd not only to work, but to fight, for small Wages, or a mere Subsistence, not better than our Slaves are allow'd by us. Is their Condition then made worse by their falling into our Hands? No; they have only exchanged one Slavery for another, and I may say a better; for here they are brought into a land where the Sun of Islamism gives forth its Light, and shines in full Splendor, and they have an Opportunity of making themselves acquainted with the true Doctrine, and thereby saving their immortal Souls. Those who remain at home have not that Happiness. Sending the Slaves home then would be sending them out of Light into Darkness.

"I repeat the Question, What is to be done with them? I have heard it suggested, that they may be planted in the Wilderness, where there is plenty of Land for them to subsist on, and where they may flourish as a free State; but they are, I doubt, to little dispos'd to labour without Compulsion, as well as too ignorant to establish a good government, and the wild Arabs would soon molest and destroy or again enslave them. While serving us, we take care to provide them with every thing, and they are treated with Humanity. The Labourers in their own Country are, as I am well informed, worse fed, lodged, and cloathed. The Condition of most of them is therefore already mended, and requires no further Improvement. Here their Lives are in Safety. They are not liable to be impress'd for Soldiers, and forc'd to cut one another's Christian throats, as in the Wars of their own Countries. If some of the religious mad Bigots, who now teaze us with their silly Petitions, have in a Fit of blind Zeal freed their Slaves, it was not Generosity, it was not Humanity, that mov'd them to the Action; it was from the conscious Burthen of a Load of Sins, and Hope, from the supposed Merits of so good a Work, to be excus'd Damnation.

"How grossly are they mistaken in imagining Slavery to be disallow'd by the Alcoran? Are not the two Precepts, to quote no more, 'Masters, treat your Slaves with kindness; Slaves, serve your Masters with Cheerfulness and Fidelity,' clear Proofs to the contrary? Nor can the Plundering of Infidels be in that sacred Book forbidden, since it is well known from it, that God has given the World, and all that it contains, to his faithful Mussulmen, who are to enjoy it of Right as fast as they conquer it. Let us then hear no more of this detestable Proposition, the Manumission of Christian Slaves, the Adoption of which would, by depreciating our Lands and Houses, and thereby depriving so many good Citizens of their Properties, create universal Discontent, and provoke Insurrections, to the endangering of Government and producing general Confusion. I have therefore no doubt, but this wise Council will prefer the Comfort and Happiness of a whole Nation of true Believers to the Whim of a few Erika, and dismiss their Petition."

The Result was, as Martin tells us, that the Divan came to this Resolution; "The Doctrine, that Plundering and Enslaving the Christians is unjust, is at best problematical; but that it is the Interest of this State to continue the Practice, is clear; therefore let the Petition be rejected."

And it was rejected accordingly.

And since like Motives are apt to produce in the Minds of Men like Opinions and Resolutions, may we not, Mr. Brown, venture to predict, from this Account, that the Petitions to the Parliament of England for abolishing the Slave-Trade, to say nothing of other Legislatures, and the Debates upon them, will have a similar Conclusion? I am, Sir, your constant Reader and humble Servant,

(Signed) HISTORICUS. (Pseudonym of Ben Franklin)

LINK: http://www.jmu.edu/madison/center/main_pages/madison_archives/era/african/elite/trade.htm


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Foreign Affairs; Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: islam; islamism; jefferson; jihad; war
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1 posted on 01/03/2007 11:01:44 AM PST by AndrewWalden
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To: AndrewWalden
I just saw via the DrudgeReport that the muslim congressman is planning on swearing his oath of office on Jefferson's copy of the Koran. Interesting. Link
2 posted on 01/03/2007 11:07:14 AM PST by Horkster (MoHAMmed...pork be upon him.)
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To: AndrewWalden

bump for later


3 posted on 01/03/2007 11:09:39 AM PST by true_blue_texican (...against all enemies, foreign and domestic...)
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To: AndrewWalden

Clearly -- the ONLY permanent solution is to totally destroy militant Islam and all who follow the militant directions in the Koran.

For a peaceful and tolerant Islam to evolve or survive, one must assume there are "peace loving, moderate Muslims"....
A belief with little empirical evidence to support.

Semper Fi


4 posted on 01/03/2007 11:13:05 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: AndrewWalden

Chilling. History not shared is lost. How many Americans know this? We are doomed to suffer and repeat History again and again, unless we destroy the enemy.


5 posted on 01/03/2007 11:15:36 AM PST by SolidWood (Sadr lives. Kill him.)
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To: river rat
"peace loving, moderate Muslims"....

Try looking at Turkey or Bangladesh. Not all Muslims are radicals, although Osama bin Laden would like us all to believe that.

6 posted on 01/03/2007 11:15:59 AM PST by You Dirty Rats (I Love Free Republic!)
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To: AndrewWalden
The "History Channel" had a great documentary on last night, Saddam and the Third Reich.
7 posted on 01/03/2007 11:19:15 AM PST by TexasCajun
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To: You Dirty Rats

Turks are neither peace-loving, nor moderate. Many of them used to be moderate decades ago, but so were Iranians. Today Turkey is drifting more and more into Islamism and anti-Americanism. And they were never peace-loving or tolerant. Ask the Kurds, Greek, Assyrians and Armenians.


8 posted on 01/03/2007 11:21:16 AM PST by SolidWood (Sadr lives. Kill him.)
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To: TexasCajun

9 posted on 01/03/2007 11:21:26 AM PST by TexasCajun
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To: AndrewWalden

Very good read!


10 posted on 01/03/2007 11:23:15 AM PST by SouthernBoyupNorth ("For my wings are made of Tungsten, my flesh of glass and steel..........")
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To: SolidWood
This is extremely important history lesson for those who urge us to withdraw inside our borders and avoid "foreign entanglements".

As long as you have anything of value, there are evil people in the world who will take it by force. And if you have nothing of value they will take your land.
11 posted on 01/03/2007 11:26:22 AM PST by BigBobber
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To: You Dirty Rats

I think Turkey has a Christian masacre or two in their not-to-distant past and the Islamists have been running amock in Bangladesh.


12 posted on 01/03/2007 11:28:41 AM PST by dangerdoc (dangerdoc (not actually dangerous any more))
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To: TexasCajun
Iraqi fascist President Ali Gailani with Adolf Hitler: ”image”

”image”

13 posted on 01/03/2007 11:30:33 AM PST by SolidWood (Sadr lives. Kill him.)
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To: AndrewWalden
In Jefferson's War: America's First War on Terror 1801-1805 the point is made that Jefferson understood a bit of the danger faced by the Tripolitan and associated Muslim pirates. His (Jefferson's) use of extreme force in crushing the enemy was a lesson that we would do well to repeat.
14 posted on 01/03/2007 11:36:00 AM PST by pop-aye (For every journey, there is a higher path.)
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To: AndrewWalden

I always think of the irony of when I found this out. Because of 9/11 we started our homeschool schedule a week later. We were to learn about pirates. The only pirate documentary I could find in the library was on the Barbary pirates.


15 posted on 01/03/2007 11:36:38 AM PST by HungarianGypsy
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To: BigBobber

Muslims will also chop off your head in front of your daughters and then rape them. Their "Prophet" did so - read the Koran for the details.


16 posted on 01/03/2007 11:37:26 AM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon Liberty, it is essential to examine principles, - -)
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To: AndrewWalden

Payment in Iron

Few people know that the impetus in creating the United States Navy and the Marines was to combat Islamic pirates.

After all, the United States could have gotten by with a coastal patrol force if it were not necessary to send men half way around the World to protect our interests. This war we are in is nothing new, not even for a young country like ours.

17 posted on 01/03/2007 11:39:00 AM PST by bondjamesbond (Many Americans are invested in a US failure in Iraq, and will work diligently to bring it about.)
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To: AndrewWalden; jd777; All

Ironically, I just posted the following on another thread.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1742163/posts?page=24#24

To: jd777

A man who thought of himself as a "true" Christian, in that he believed Jesus brought the best moral code to humanity, a man who had to deal with the Barbary pirates and who had to compromise in the signing of a treaty with dubious wording so non-Muslims wouldn't have to pay Islamic tax? Jefferson was no fan of Islam, believe me. He studied law, including the Qur'an as a system of laws, but I don't think he gave it a lot of consideration for the very simple reason that he didn't have to deal with it on home soil. He didn't keep the Qur'an by his bedside and memorize it. It was just extraneous study material to him. He was more concerned with arguments between Christian denominations - irritated by them, really, because he thought the disagreements were ruining Christ's real message. Although there were those of his time who did know enough about Islam to discuss it and to be rightfully fearful of it, I don't think Jefferson was an Islamic scholar. Rather, I think he approached it with some amount of naivete and a sense of it being "far away" and thus not our problem. If it had become an issue on American soil, I think he would have become obsessive in studying and refuting Islam because the laws of Islam are polar opposites from our Bill of Rights and our Constitution, and therefore, against everything he believed in.

24 posted on 01/03/2007 11:20:22 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)


18 posted on 01/03/2007 11:43:26 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: sageb1

Do you think George W. Has a copy of the KORAN ?


19 posted on 01/03/2007 11:47:30 AM PST by jd777
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To: You Dirty Rats

As long as the Qur'an is available for indoctrination purposes, all believers are potential radicals. Islam needs to be shelved permanently. Forget Osama. Study Islam. That's all you need to do.


20 posted on 01/03/2007 11:49:24 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: MadLibDisease

Mark for later


21 posted on 01/03/2007 11:49:42 AM PST by MadLibDisease (Want a nanny state? You are no conservative.)
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To: jd777

I have a copy! What IS your point?


22 posted on 01/03/2007 11:50:31 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: bondjamesbond

1794: March 27 - President George Washington signs "an act to provide a naval armament." By authorizing the construction of six frigates (what we would call "cruisers" today) the Third Congress in effect creates the U.S. Navy. The immediate issue is the need to protect the large American merchant fleet from continuous and increasing attacks by the North African "Barbary pirate" states of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli-as well as from aggressive high-seas practices of the British. The ships are designed by Mr. Joshua Humphreys, a Philadelphia Quaker and an innovative naval architect, and are to be built at six different cities. The contract for one of these ships, to be named the CONSTITUTION, is given to Edmund Hartt's shipyard in Boston, Massachusetts.

--- From the USS Constitution's website


23 posted on 01/03/2007 11:52:44 AM PST by bondjamesbond (Many Americans are invested in a US failure in Iraq, and will work diligently to bring it about.)
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To: bondjamesbond

Ah, the irony! :)


24 posted on 01/03/2007 11:53:50 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: You Dirty Rats
Try looking at Turkey or Bangladesh. Not all Muslims are radicals, although Osama bin Laden would like us all to believe that. So I had a look at Bangladesh and only saw the "Muslim Persecution of Hindus."

Then I looked here: In Turkey, 'Honor Killing' Follows Families to Cities

Lovely people!

Hank

25 posted on 01/03/2007 11:54:58 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: You Dirty Rats

Add Guyana (South America) to the list and that is about all. Read my about page for details.


26 posted on 01/03/2007 11:59:57 AM PST by Jason_b
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To: river rat

"..the ONLY permanent solution is to totally destroy militant Islam.."


You mean all one billion of them?


27 posted on 01/03/2007 12:12:36 PM PST by 353FMG (I never met a liberal I didn't dislike.)
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To: AndrewWalden
As a result Americans led by President James Madison fought Algerians in the Second Barbary War in 1815, leading to another treaty

I believe that's the one where we said we are not a Christian nation.

The trend of Muslim defeat began to reverse after the Second World War even though many Muslim leaders had backed Hitler’s Third Reich.

More specifically, the grand mufti of Jerusalem worked closely with Hitler on a solution to their shared "Jewish problem." And today's Palestinians have the gall to play the innocent victim role.

28 posted on 01/03/2007 12:17:02 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: Horkster
I just saw via the DrudgeReport that the muslim congressman is planning on swearing his oath of office on Jefferson's copy of the Koran.

Thus signaling he intends NOT to keep the oath?!

29 posted on 01/03/2007 12:21:02 PM PST by nonsporting
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To: river rat
Clearly -- the ONLY permanent solution is to totally destroy militant Islam and all who follow the militant directions in the Koran.

Agreed. Then begin converting 'peaceful islam,' since that is the seed bed from which grows 'militant islam.'

30 posted on 01/03/2007 12:21:32 PM PST by RobinOfKingston (Man, that's stupid...even by congressional standards.)
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To: AndrewWalden

bump for later read


31 posted on 01/03/2007 12:52:46 PM PST by pt17
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To: bondjamesbond

Wonder if they had lunatics running around back then screaming "No blood for (olive) oil!"


32 posted on 01/03/2007 1:01:48 PM PST by Squidpup
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To: AndrewWalden
One of my favorite citations of all time was Ayn Rand's which went something like this:
America's founding fathers were the world's first intellectuals in government.
Unfortunately, they were also the last.
Rings true even today.
33 posted on 01/03/2007 1:05:33 PM PST by Bon mots
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To: 353FMG
"You mean all one billion of them?"

I mean as many of the lunatic militant murderous Muslims and their families and supporters as NECESSARY....

Sooner, rather than later....

They would not hesitate to murder 100's of millions to accomplish their "One world, under the flag of Islam"..

If we are not willing to do that which is necessary to defend our freedoms -- they will succeed..

Semper Fi

34 posted on 01/03/2007 1:05:34 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Pharmboy

ping


35 posted on 01/03/2007 1:12:00 PM PST by NonValueAdded (Saddam is Dead! Bush's Fault. [Pray for our patriot brother, 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub.])
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To: You Dirty Rats
"Not all Muslims are radicals,..."

To be a pious and Koran following Muslim - one must be a "radical" or support the "radical" behavior of the lunatic members of their murderous cult..

To see the barbarous practices of Muslims as justified by the Koran or it's interpretation by Islamic clerics -- as not "radical", indicates some folks have become so open minded their brains have drained out.

Semper Fi

36 posted on 01/03/2007 1:12:09 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: sageb1

Every "moderate" Muslim is but one impassioned mullah's sermon separated from becoming a murderous jihadist. The plain words of The Prophet, as recorded in the Koran, can be used to incite every Muslim to the central task of destroying "infidels."

I believe the U. S. Army's first major combat experience with Muslim fighters occurred duriing the Phillipine Insurrection, ca. 1899-1902. An interesting account is given in "The Regulars: The American Army," by Edward M. Coffman, The Belknapp Press of Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge 2004.


37 posted on 01/03/2007 1:19:46 PM PST by Elsiejay (\)
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bflr.


38 posted on 01/03/2007 1:31:52 PM PST by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: antiRepublicrat
I believe that's the one where we said we are not a Christian nation.

The Treaty of Tripoli never asserted that America was not a Christian nation. Article 11 of The Treaty of Tripoli said that the American government was not founded on the Christian religion. This is a difficult concept to grasp for those who have come to believe otherwise.

What Article 11 is actually reported to have said is:

ARTICLE 11 - As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The Avalon Project at Yale studied the translations in great detail and actually expressed doubts that Article 11 even existed.

Briefly, very briefly, the point was that if the America government was not founded in Christianity then the American Navy personal were not in need of conversion by the Muslims, who were referred to as Musselmen.

39 posted on 01/03/2007 1:35:36 PM PST by MosesKnows
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To: NonValueAdded; indcons; Chani; thefactor; blam; aculeus; ELS; Doctor Raoul; mainepatsfan; timpad; ..
Thanks for the ping, NonValueAdded; I indeed thought this worthy of a full RevWar/Colonial History/General Washington List Ping.

Shores of Tripoli...

40 posted on 01/03/2007 1:35:43 PM PST by Pharmboy ([She turned me into a] Newt! in '08)
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To: MosesKnows
The Treaty of Tripoli never asserted that America was not a Christian nation. Article 11 of The Treaty of Tripoli said that the American government was not founded on the Christian religion.

I know, it's semantics on my choice of words.

Briefly, very briefly, the point was that if the America government was not founded in Christianity then the American Navy personal were not in need of conversion by the Muslims

Under the Quran, Christians are actually supposed to be protected, converted by persuasion only. It's those who are neither Christian nor Jew who are supposed to fear the Muslims, since they are not "people of the book."

41 posted on 01/03/2007 1:39:06 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: AndrewWalden
I agree with most of this article, but this is absurd.


"...because representatives of South Carolina and Georgia threatened secession which would have led to war...."

Really? It would have led to war only if the rest of the colonies had attacked South Carolina and Georgia. They could have let them secede in peace. As in the civil war later, the south did not force the north to attack it..... Secession does not force wars.

the rest of the article was right on.
42 posted on 01/03/2007 1:44:28 PM PST by monday
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To: Pharmboy

Almost from the very beginning of Islam, there were wars upon wars between Christians and Moslems. We remember the Crusade wars, seven major and several minor, which lasted for centuries.

This is the story of the Battle of Lepanto, which marked the end of the Crusades and was a turning point in the history of Christianity.



Charles Martel's victory at Poitiers definitely stopped the Moslem invasion of western Europe. In the east Christians held firm against attacks of the Moslems until 1453. In that year, Mohammed II threw huge assaults against Constantinople and by the evening of May 29 the Byzantine capital fell.

By 1571 the Moslems were firmly installed in Europe. Their ships ruled the Mediterranean Sea from the Strait of Bosporus to the Strait of Gibraltar and constantly preyed on Christian vessels unless they flew the French flag.

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/lepanto.htm


43 posted on 01/03/2007 1:48:04 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Horkster

How long before Muslims claim Jefferson was a Muslim?


44 posted on 01/03/2007 1:50:10 PM PST by rintense (Just say no to McCain in 2008!)
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To: MosesKnows
Coming to the ACLU member's defense, one of the interviewers cited as proof that America was not founded by Christians – nor upon the principles of Christianity – the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, which declared in Article XI: "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/5/9/212811.shtml
45 posted on 01/03/2007 1:53:42 PM PST by anglian
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To: anglian

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/5/9/212811.shtml


46 posted on 01/03/2007 1:54:14 PM PST by anglian
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From: ORIANA FALLACI, The Force of Reason, New York 2006, page 56:

“In 1974 Boumedienne [President of Algeria]…spoke before the general assembly of the United Nations. …he said: “ “One day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere of this planet to burst into the northern one. But not as friends. Because they will burst in to conquer, and they will conquer by populating it with their children. Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women.”

Also on Page 57:

“That very same year… the Islamic Conference concluded its meeting in Lahore with a Resolution which included a plan to turn the then modest flow of immigrants towards Europe and penetrate the continent through “demographic preponderance”. A plan that is now a precept. … In every mosque of Europe the prayer is accompanied by the exhortation … “Bear at least five children each couple”

47 posted on 01/03/2007 1:56:29 PM PST by anglian
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To: Elsiejay

Thank you for that information. I'll have to see if I can pick up a copy of Coffman's book.


48 posted on 01/03/2007 2:11:59 PM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: Pharmboy

Thanks for the ping.


49 posted on 01/03/2007 3:07:36 PM PST by aculeus
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To: AndrewWalden
The American response needs to be the same now as in the days of Jefferson. No prisoners.
50 posted on 01/03/2007 3:11:26 PM PST by Ukiapah Heep (Shoes for Industry!)
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