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Where's Jack Bauer When You Need Him?
Creators Syndicate ^ | January 17, 2007 | Ben Shapiro

Posted on 01/17/2007 7:25:19 AM PST by UltraConservative

Two weeks ago, in this column, I suggested that Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, would have difficulty wooing conservatives because of his "anti-torture positions." Commentator Andrew Sullivan immediately pounced on my phraseology: "Good to see plain English being used on the right. Pity the use of torture is now a plus for some in the Republican primaries. But, hey, that's what American conservatism now stands for."

Sullivan is perhaps the leading proponent of a blanket ban on torture of terrorist detainees. In an article he wrote for The New Republic back in December 2005, he elucidates his position. "Torture is the polar opposite of freedom," he states. To this platitude he adds that the development of Western civilization is a progression from torture to freedom; that if we turn our enemies into monsters to justify torturing them, we will dramatically increase the amount of torture we inflict generally; that we blur the line between our own values and those of the terrorists we fight and, in doing so, alienate potential allies in the Muslim world.

These are not empty arguments. Nevertheless, they remain unconvincing. No one doubts that arbitrary torture is wrong. Were we to pull random American citizens from their homes and drag them into a cell for a bit of waterboarding, we would undoubtedly be destroying our own moral fiber and discrediting our history. We would be no better than the Islamists we fight. But there is a fundamental difference between our treatment of non-citizens and our treatment of citizens. There is a fundamental difference between how we treat our friends and how we treat our enemies.

What distinguishes us from our enemies is not how we treat our enemies, but what we fight to ensure for our friends. We seek to make the world a freer place, a safer place. We fight against the jackboots arriving in the night to steal away religious or political minorities. Our enemies seek to destroy us, and our way of life. They fight for the rape rooms, for the public beheadings, for the murder of religious and political minorities. They seek to make torture the rule, not the exception.

Western civilization, and American civilization in particular, is based on opposition to torture. But Western civilization has never been based on the idea that we must treat enemies of Western civilization with the same care we treat allies. Outsiders are not members of the social pact that guarantees them the rights insiders enjoy.

This does not mean we should treat all outsiders as terrorists. We should treat outsiders with civility as long as they do not threaten our civilization -- this in and of itself distinguishes us from our enemies. If, however, outsiders threaten our civilization, we should do what we deem necessary. If we must sometimes get our hands dirty to protect Western civilization, so be it. Western civilization is not a fragile edifice, infinitely susceptible to fruits of fascism. We will not become Nazis because we torture terrorists. We can safely fight our enemies without destroying that which makes us what we are.

In deciding how to treat our enemies, then, we must answer one question: Do the benefits of torture in this case outweigh the harms? In the case of uniformed soldiers, the answer is clearly no. Treating uniformed soldiers with care encourages enemies to identify themselves as soldiers rather than civilians, keeping civilians safer and thereby greasing the wheels for post-war reconstruction.

In the case of terrorists, however, the answer is that torture will often serve a useful purpose. The "ticking time bomb" scenario, wherein torture is necessary to save lives from imminent destruction, is an obvious example. But it is not the only example. If a terrorist has information about sleeper cells; if he has information about future attacks; if he has information about locations and identities, we should torture him.

Sullivan, citing Abu Ghraib, questions whether the benefits of such information outweigh the negative impact on our perception in the Muslim world. This is a reasonable concern, but it is not the only concern. If torturing a particular terrorist is useful -- if we engage in the complicated calculus that tells us that the benefits outweigh the harms -- torture is not only justified, it is morally right.

This does not mean we must treat our enemies as subhuman, opening the door to widespread abuses. Our enemies are eminently human in their evil; only humans can be evil. But their status as homo sapiens should not shield them and their allies when it comes to preserving Western civilization. The first duty of Western civilization is self-preservation. Self-immolation, not torture, is the polar opposite of freedom.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 24; andrewsullivan; benshapiro; jackbauer; torture
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Excellent, as usual.
1 posted on 01/17/2007 7:25:21 AM PST by UltraConservative
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To: UltraConservative

Sullivan seeks to protect those that would kill him in a millisecond.


2 posted on 01/17/2007 7:27:25 AM PST by kromike
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To: UltraConservative

Bauer's goin a little soft in his old age...... :-)


3 posted on 01/17/2007 7:30:06 AM PST by showme_the_Glory (No more rhyming, and I mean it! ..Anybody want a peanut.....)
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To: UltraConservative

The problem with Andy Sullivan is that he would probably have enjoyed Abu Ghraib ... let alone Midnight Express.


4 posted on 01/17/2007 7:34:39 AM PST by sono (There are only two exit strategies - One is victory, the other defeat - Joe Lieberman)
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To: UltraConservative

Bump. Great article by young Ben.


5 posted on 01/17/2007 7:34:47 AM PST by Sans-Culotte ("Thanks, Tom DeLay, for practically giving me your seat"-Nick Lampson)
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To: UltraConservative
The indecisiveness and tortured mind of Jack Bauer is exactly why John McCain can't be allowed to be president.

The difference is, Jack will recover.

6 posted on 01/17/2007 7:35:01 AM PST by evad
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To: UltraConservative
I am against torture against detainees! I think it is best to apply torture while in the field! I suggest if torture is to be used detainees should be released and given a running start!
7 posted on 01/17/2007 7:35:12 AM PST by eastforker (.308 SOCOM 16, hottest brand going.2350 FPS muzlim velocity)
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To: UltraConservative
On a related note...

A Deadly Kindness

8 posted on 01/17/2007 7:37:35 AM PST by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: UltraConservative

Extremely well said.


9 posted on 01/17/2007 7:37:51 AM PST by quesney
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To: UltraConservative

Torture is really not the issue at all. The true issue is the discursive reality of torture.

When Americans engage in torture-- that is wrong.

When Saddam engages in torture-- that passes without comment.

The "talking about" problem is precisely what Sullivan and other softies are loathe to talk about. To pretend that any form of American torture approaches some of the most basic and normative prision abuses in the global community is ridiculous.

Sullivan and other naysayers are happy to participate in this silent complicity because it serves a political agenda of undermining support for violence to stop torture-- which was one of the important warrants for the war.

I have long said that Bush and other war supporters should take the Mission Accomplished sign off the aircraft carrier and put it up over Abu Ghraib.

Why?

Because the incredible thing about Abu Ghraib is not that torture happened there-- an observation positively pedantic. The incredible thing is that American soldiers embarked on a discursive process associated with democracy about how to identify and deal appropriately with issues of torture. That is the American success and would alone justify the war.

But Sullivan and other silly naysayers are too happy crying crocodile tears about torture.

They have no sincere regard for the matter and I have no problem saying so.


10 posted on 01/17/2007 7:37:54 AM PST by lonestar67 (Its time to withdraw from the War on Bush-- your side is hopelessly lost in a quagmire.)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: lonestar67
To pretend that any form of American torture approaches some of the most basic and normative prisons abuses in the global community is ridiculous

Exactly! We don't torture people, not out of any concern about the terrorists but for what it does to our people. In addition it provides ammo to our enemies. For better or worse we must be like Ceaser's wife..above reproach
12 posted on 01/17/2007 7:44:11 AM PST by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: UltraConservative

You want to see what torture is really like?
Saddam's chambers of horrors

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1419920/posts

By MARGARET WENTE

Toronto Globe and Mail Saturday, November 23, 2002

Abu Ghraib, 30 kilometres west of Baghdad, is Iraq's biggest prison. Until recently, it held perhaps 50,000 people, perhaps more. No one knows for sure. No one knows how many people were taken there through the years and never came out.

For a generation, Abu Ghraib was the centrepiece of Saddam Hussein's reign of torture and death. Yahya al-Jaiyashy is one of the survivors.

Mr. Jaiyashy is an animated, bearded man of 49 whose words can scarcely keep up with the torrent of his memories. Today he lives in Toronto with his second wife, Sahar. This week, he sat down with me to relate his story. With him were his wife, a lovely Iraqi woman in her mid-30s, and a friend, Haithem al-Hassan, who helped me with Mr. Jaiyashy's mixture of Arabic and rapid English.

"Nineteen seventy-seven was the first time I went to jail," he says. "I was not tortured that much."

He was in his mid-20s then, from an intellectual family that lived in a town south of Baghdad. He had been a student of Islamic history, language and religion in the holy city of Najaf, but was forced to quit his studies after he refused to join the ruling Ba'ath party. His ambition was to write books that would show how Islam could open itself up to modernism.

In Saddam's Iraq, this was a dangerous occupation, especially for a Shiite. Shia Muslims are the majority in Iraq, but Saddam and his inner circle are Sunni. Many Shiites were under suspicion as enemies of the state.

"My father was scared for me," says Mr. Jaiyashy. " 'You know how dangerous this regime is,' he told me. 'You know how many people they kill.' "

Mr. Jaiyashy continued his studies on his own. But, eventually, he was picked up, along with a dozen acquaintances who had been involved in political activity against the regime. They were sent to Abu Ghraib. The others did not get off as lightly as he did. One was killed by immersion into a vat of acid. Ten others, he recalls, were put into a room and torn apart by wild dogs. Several prominent religious leaders were also executed. One was a university dean, someone Mr. Jaiyashy remembers as "a great man." They drove a nail through his skull.

For three decades, the most vicious war Saddam has waged has been the one against his own people. Iraq's most devastating weapon of mass destruction is Saddam himself. And the most powerful case for regime change is their suffering.

Sometimes, it is almost impossible to believe the accounts of people who survived Saddam's chamber of horrors. They seem like twisted nightmares, or perhaps crude propaganda. But there are too many survivors who have escaped Iraq, too many credible witnesses. And Mr. Jaiyashy's story, horrible as it is, is not unusual.

Saddam personally enjoyed inflicting torture in the early years of his career, and he has modelled his police state after that of his hero, Stalin. According to Kenneth Pollack, a leading U.S. expert on Iraq, the regime employs as many as half a million people in its various intelligence, security and police organizations. Hundreds of thousands of others serve as informants. Neighbour is encouraged to inform on neighbour, children on their parents. Saddam has made Iraq into a self-policing totalitarian state, where everyone is afraid of everybody else.

"Being in Iraq is like creeping around inside someone else's migraine," says veteran BBC correspondent John Sweeney. "The fear is so omnipresent, you could almost eat it."

To Stalin's methods of arbitrary arrests and forced confessions, Saddam has added an element of sadism: the torture of children to extract information from their parents.

In northern Iraq -- the only place in the country where people can speak relatively freely -- Mr. Sweeney interviewed several people who had direct experience of child torture. He also met one of the victims -- a four-year-old girl, the daughter of a man who had worked for Saddam's psychopathic son Uday. When the man fell under suspicion, he fled to the Kurdish safe haven in the north. The police came for his wife and tortured her to reveal his whereabouts; when she didn't break, they took his daughter and crushed her feet. She was 2 then. Today, she wears metal braces on her legs, and can only hobble.

"This is a regime that will gouge out the eyes of children to force confessions from their parents and grandparents," writes Mr. Pollack in his new book, The Threatening Storm. "This is a regime that will hold a nursing baby at arm's length from its mother and allow the child to starve to death to force the mother to confess. This is a regime that will burn a person's limbs off to force him to confess or comply. This is a regime that will slowly lower its victims into huge vats of acid. . . .

"This is a regime that practises systematic rape against the female victims. This is a regime that will drag in a man's wife, daughter or other female relative and repeatedly rape her in front of him." And if he has fled the country, it will send him the video.

After nearly two years in prison, Mr. Jaiyashy was released and sent to do military service in the north. Then the security police decided to round up the followers of one of the executed clerics. In 1980, Mr. Jaiyashy was arrested again, along with 20 friends, and taken to a military prison. He was interrogated about criticisms he was supposed to have made of the regime, and urged to sign a confession. During one session, his wrists were tied to a ceiling fan. Then they turned on the fan. Then they added weights onto his body and did it again. Then somebody climbed on him to add more weight. "It was 20 minutes, but it seemed like 20 years," he recalls.

He was beaten with a water hose filled with stones. When he passed out, he was shocked back into consciousness with an electric cable. They hung him by his legs, pulled out a fingernail with pliers, and drove an electric drill through his foot.

Mr. Jaiyashy took off his right shoe and sock to show me his foot. It is grotesquely mutilated, with a huge swelling over the arch. There is an Amnesty International report on human-rights abuses in Iraq with a photo of a mutilated foot that looks identical to his. The baby finger on his left hand is also mutilated.

He didn't sign the confession. He knew that, if he did, they would eventually kill him.

They put him in solitary confinement, in a cell measuring two metres by two and a half, without windows or light. Every few weeks, they would bring him the confession again, but he refused to sign. He stayed there for a year.

In 1981, he was sent to trial, where he persuaded a sympathetic judge not to impose the death sentence. He got 10 years instead, and was sent back to Abu Ghraib. "They put me in a cell with 50 people. It was three and a half by three and a half metres. Some stood, some sat. They took turns."

There was a small window in the cell, with a view of a tree. It was the only living thing the prisoners could see. The tree was cut down. There were informants in the cells and, every morning, guards would come and take someone and beat him till he died. "This is your breakfast!" they would say.

Mr. Jaiyashy spent the next six years in that cell. His parents were told he was dead.

Abu Ghraib contained many intellectuals and professional people. Among them was the scientist Hussein Shahristani, a University of Toronto alumnus who became a leading nuclear scientist in Iraq. He was imprisoned after he refused to work on Saddam's nuclear program. He spent 10 years in Abu Ghraib, most of them in solitary confinement, until he escaped in 1991.

Saddam has reduced his people to abject poverty. He wiped out families, villages, cities and cultures, and drove four million people into exile. He killed between 100,000 and 200,000 Kurds. He killed as many as 300,000 Shiites in the uprising after the Persian Gulf war. He killed or displaced 200,000 of the 250,000 marsh Arabs who had created a unique, centuries-old culture in the south. He drained the marshes, an environmental treasure, and turned them into a desert.

In a recent Frontline documentary, a woman who fled Iraq recounted how she and others had been forced to witness the public beheadings of 15 women who had been rounded up for prostitution and other crimes against the state. One of the women was a doctor who had been misreported as speaking against the regime. "They put her head in a trash can," she said.

In 1987, Mr. Jaiyashy and a thousand other inmates were transferred to an outdoor prison camp. There, they were allowed a visit with their relatives, so long as they said nothing of their lives in prison. Mr. Jaiyashy's parents came, hoping he might still be alive. He remembers the day all the families came. "There was so much crying. We called it the crying day."

In 1989, he was finally released from prison. Then came the gulf war and, after that, the uprising, which he joined. It was quickly crushed. He fled with 150,000 refugees toward the Saudi border. But the Saudis didn't want them. "They are Wahhabis," he says. "They consider the Shia as infidels." The United Nations set up a refugee camp, where Mr. Jaiyashy spent the next six years. He began to paint and write again.

Finally, he was accepted as an immigrant to Canada. He arrived in Toronto in 1996, and is now a Canadian citizen.

Mr. Jaiyashy has a deep sense of gratitude toward his adoptive country. Canada, he says, has given him back his freedom and his dignity. He paints prolifically, and has taken courses at the art college, and is the author of three plays about the Saddam regime. He makes his living stocking shelves in a fabric store. "I'm a porter," he says. "No problem. I'm happy."

But Saddam's spies are everywhere. After one of his plays was produced here, his father was imprisoned. His first wife and three children are still in Iraq. He hasn't seen them since his youngest, now 12, was a baby. He talks with them on the phone from time to time, but it is very dangerous. One of his brothers is in Jordan, another still in Iraq.

Sahar, his second wife, is soft-spoken. She covers her head and dresses modestly, without makeup. Her face is unlined. She arrived in Canada with her two daughters the same year as Mr. Jaiyashy; they were introduced by friends.

She, too, has a story. I learned only the smallest part of it. "I was a widow," she told me. "My husband was a doctor in Iraq. He wanted to continue his education and have a specialty. But they didn't allow him. He deserted the military service to continue his education on his own. They beat him till he died."

Today, her daughters are in high school and she teaches at a daycare centre. Her new husband pushed her to study hard here. "ESL, ESL," she says affectionately.

Like many Iraqis, they are conflicted about the prospect of war. They want Saddam gone. But they do not want more harm inflicted on their country. "I want Saddam gone -- only him," says Mr. Jaiyashy.

A few weeks ago, Saddam threw open the doors of Abu Ghraib and freed the prisoners there. Many families rejoiced, and many others, who did not find their loved ones, mounted a brief, unheard-of protest against the regime. The prison is a ghost camp now. Nothing is left but piles of human excrement that cake the razor wire.

Saddam's Iraq is a rebuke to anyone who may doubt that absolute evil dwells among us. No one has put it better than Mr. Sweeney, the BBC reporter. "When I hear the word Iraq, I hear a tortured child screaming."

_________________________________________

That's torture!


13 posted on 01/17/2007 7:51:03 AM PST by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: Valin

Give war a chance bump


14 posted on 01/17/2007 8:04:52 AM PST by B.O. Plenty (liberalism, abortions and islam are terminal)
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To: B.O. Plenty

Jihad is Not the Answer.


15 posted on 01/17/2007 8:42:37 AM PST by Misterioso
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To: UltraConservative

bttt


16 posted on 01/17/2007 9:40:04 AM PST by Christian4Bush (Too bad these leftist advocates for abortion didn't practice what they preached on themselves.)
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To: UltraConservative

Sad state of affairs when a fictional television show does a better job of educating the public on the realities of terrorism than the news media.

But if you'd really like to know where Jack Bauer is -- he is long since deceased. He died with demise of the O.S.S. after WWII and the birth of the C.I.A. The Church Commission danced on Bauer's grave in the 70's, insuring that any future Jack Bauers would be hancuffed, stifled and sued out of existence.

Intelligence is a distasteful business when it is done right. And the job description usually doesn't involve leaking to the NYT to undermine the security of the nation....


17 posted on 01/17/2007 10:08:10 AM PST by ConservativeGadfly
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To: UltraConservative

Andrew doesn't really care about torture one way or another. His bitterness toward us for not celebrating his homosexuality is what he lives for now. I mean, he TRIED to play a conservative! Why didn't we love him enough?!? (boo-hoo!)


18 posted on 01/17/2007 10:32:43 AM PST by AmericanChef
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To: UltraConservative
Commentator Andrew Sullivan immediately pounced on my phraseology..."Pity the use of torture is now a plus for some in the Republican primaries. But, hey, that's what American conservatism now stands for."


Hey Andy....

So kindly -- STFU

19 posted on 01/17/2007 10:52:08 AM PST by Condor51 (The demoncRATs don't want another 'Vietnam' - they want another Dien Bien Phu.)
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To: showme_the_Glory

I think he's a little bit more energized now after the end of that last hour...

Question is now...Who's going to step in and direct Field Ops...

I sent them my resume...;-)


20 posted on 01/17/2007 1:42:26 PM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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