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U.S. Would Have Fired on The Iranians
UK Independent via. Hot Air ^

Posted on 03/25/2007 5:30:55 PM PDT by Weight of Glory

The executive officer - second-in-command on USS Underwood, the frigate working in the British-controlled task force with HMS Cornwall - said: “The unique US Navy rules of engagement say we not only have a right to self-defence but also an obligation to self-defence. They [the British] had every right in my mind and every justification to defend themselves rather than allow themselves to be taken. Our reaction was, ‘Why didn’t your guys defend themselves?’”…

(Excerpt) Read more at hotair.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: geopolitics; iran; rulesofengagement; selfdefence; uk; wot
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To: farlander

Sinking the whole Iranian Navy might prevent this from happening again in the forseeable future.


151 posted on 03/26/2007 5:41:59 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: reardensteel

We should also take over their oil fields. hehe


152 posted on 03/26/2007 5:41:59 AM PDT by angcat ("IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM")
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To: Weight of Glory
Yep! Our troops would have fired on the Iranian Sonovabitches , evaded capture and came home to be tried, condemned and sentenced to long terms in prison by anti-American-anti-Military sonovabitches in one of our politically correct courts.

At least the British troops know that they are screwed whatever they do and can act accordingly.
153 posted on 03/26/2007 5:57:35 AM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (Democrats are free to do as they please, Republicans are free to please Democrats too.)
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To: ASA Vet; BIGLOOK; rlmorel; george76

"I don't blame the Captain or crew. I blame the president of the US who called off the two F4C's that were enroute."

More than a few of us felt the Crew of the Pueblo had been set up to justify the call up of over 14,000 Air Force reservists and guard members by one of the worse presidents in history, LBJ.


http://www.usspueblo.org/v2f/incident/incidentframe.html


154 posted on 03/26/2007 6:00:12 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (GW has more Honor and Integrity in his little finger than ALL of the losers on the "hate Bush" band)
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To: TheRedSoxWinThePennant

I'm with you. First thing I said to my wife, was put up the fighter jets, fully armed and give them a small taste of the destruction that awaits them.

They will only recognize force. This wait,and wish diplomacy only emboldens them.


155 posted on 03/26/2007 6:06:14 AM PDT by patriotspride
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To: patriotspride

You are right. I believe War with Iran is not only inevitable it is a nessecity. They are the head of the snake and will not negotiate. That is why I am waiting for Bush to wake up and start selling this because it aint going to be easy convincing the public when the drive by media is already running stories on how bloody a war with Iran would be.


156 posted on 03/26/2007 6:17:07 AM PDT by TheRedSoxWinThePennant
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To: farlander
They need to retire this guy - quick!

I'm glad to know the USN had a reasonable ROE for this situation.

The UK ought to issue an issue an ultimatum: give us our sailors and marines back or we, and all of NATO, declare war.
157 posted on 03/26/2007 6:24:06 AM PDT by Little Ray (Proud to be one of "...the most paranoid, xenophobic and reactionary characters...")
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To: Little Ray

Yep. In a perfect world. In the world we live in... maybe the Brits can offer the Iranians to keep the boat in exchange for the sailors...


158 posted on 03/26/2007 6:28:04 AM PDT by farlander (Try not to wear milk bone underwear - it's a dog eat dog financial world)
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To: Elsiejay
Failure to thus secure the ship constitutes dereliction of duty, probably at multiple levels in the chain of command, not excluding the Dept. of State and the Oval Office especially including the State Department and Oval Office.
159 posted on 03/26/2007 6:34:35 AM PDT by snowrip (Liberal? YOU HAVE NO RATIONAL ARGUMENT. Actually, you lack even a legitimate excuse.)
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To: Daveinyork

bttt

Sinking the whole Iranian Navy might prevent this from happening again in the forseeable future.


160 posted on 03/26/2007 6:52:22 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Cicero

Hearing now that both a US and GB helicopter were above the scene when the Iranians took the sailors and marine.

Were they videotaping for a future documentary or were they realizing it's WAR!


161 posted on 03/26/2007 6:54:37 AM PDT by OldFriend ( TOM DeLAY FAN)
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To: Elsiejay

Slick willie actually honored the Commander of the USS Cole.


162 posted on 03/26/2007 6:56:02 AM PDT by OldFriend ( TOM DeLAY FAN)
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To: xjcsa

A US helicopter and a British helicopter is reported to have been monitoring the scene.


163 posted on 03/26/2007 6:57:10 AM PDT by OldFriend ( TOM DeLAY FAN)
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To: Grampa Dave; BIGLOOK

I was hoping that Bush would do it better than LBJ.

LBJ was terrible in so many ways.

Second : Was this an American or a British decision ?

After the Cole and all the other attacks, I thought that the local commanders did not have to get permission to defend themselves immediately.


164 posted on 03/26/2007 6:57:40 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Weight of Glory

Our boys would have raised shields and executed evasive manuver Picard Beta 3, sent a volley of photo torpedoes at the interlopers and showed them their humanity by picking up any survivors that had managed to crawl into an escape pod


165 posted on 03/26/2007 6:59:21 AM PDT by The Louiswu (Never Forget!)
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To: OldFriend

The title of michael moore's new movie : How we surrendered to a few gun boats ?


166 posted on 03/26/2007 7:02:36 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

"I was hoping that Bush would do it better than LBJ."

These are Brit Sailors and Marines, and they are not under the command nor responsibility of President Bush, and our Sailors and Marines are not under the command nor responsibility of the UK.

"LBJ was terrible in so many ways."

Only Carter made LBJ look a little better.

"Second : Was this an American or a British decision ?"

Again, these are British Sailors and Marines. All decisions related to this crime come from the UK. All we can do is support them along the way.

"After the Cole and all the other attacks, I thought that the local commanders did not have to get permission to defend themselves immediately."

This was changed after 9/11 and probably before this. Again the Rules of Engagement are decided by the country where the ships, sailors and marines come from, not allies. The Iranians knew that if they tried to kidnap any of our sailors/marines, there would have been a response from our ships at the scene and probably our Naval Air Jocks.


167 posted on 03/26/2007 7:23:16 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (GW has more Honor and Integrity in his little finger than ALL of the losers on the "hate Bush" band)
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To: TheRedSoxWinThePennant

Damn, Your plan has my vote but who would implement?


168 posted on 03/26/2007 7:25:22 AM PDT by mcshot ("If it ain't broke it doesn't have enough features." paraphrased anon.)
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To: Grampa Dave

Why is there an Iranian Navy this morning ?

There is likely some diplomatic reason but the Iranians could not harass the shipping lanes if all their boats were sunk ?


169 posted on 03/26/2007 7:34:57 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68

Thanks.

That was an interesting article.


170 posted on 03/26/2007 7:36:01 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: mewzilla

"...If the Brits were unwilling to defend their personnel, those sailors and Marines should never have been sent out. That was their fist mistake..."


Bingo!

Looks like we're being done in by deescalation and our new rules will be in the form of guidelines for swapping prisoners.
Just think of all the money we'll save by switching to rubber replicas that don't shoot.


171 posted on 03/26/2007 8:05:44 AM PDT by mcshot ("If it ain't broke it doesn't have enough features." paraphrased anon.)
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To: mcshot

The Brits should have seen the warships from Iran coming and tried to sweep up the 15 members ASAP while fending off the Iran navy.


172 posted on 03/26/2007 8:20:25 AM PDT by thebaron512
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To: OldFriend

Rules of engagement. The British commander on the scene called headquarters and was refused permission to fire.

I hadn't heard about the US helicopter, but my reading of the situation is that this was a British operation, and British hostages, so the US could not very well intervene unless the British requested or agreed to it.

I think this would be the case even though the Americans are in command in the war theater. It's one of the complications when you fight with allies and they have their own rules of engagement.


173 posted on 03/26/2007 8:23:22 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: thebaron512

There were American and British helicopters apparently watching the Iranian boats come out from their bases and then attack.

Apparently permission was never granted from London for the navy to commence defending fire ?


174 posted on 03/26/2007 8:44:34 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Grampa Dave; george76
The ROE change all the time. Remember the shoot down of the Iranian air liner by the USS Vincennes......that incident put a damper on the ability of a command to react to a perceived threat.
175 posted on 03/26/2007 8:50:09 AM PDT by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: george76

Winston Churchill must be spinning is his grave!


176 posted on 03/26/2007 8:58:29 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: BIGLOOK

Thanks.

It seems that the British commanders did little more than to call London for permission to do something.

Same on Clinton when the Cole was attacked.

If we are going into harms way, it seems that the commanders should have more freedom to respond ?

I remember the D-day stories of the German Generals were afraid to do anything until Hitler awoke that afternoon.

Sounds similar ?


177 posted on 03/26/2007 9:05:26 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: TheRedSoxWinThePennant

Thats because they can see that there is no end after leaving Iraq.

Iran exposes the foolishness of a Vietnam like retreat.

Watched Hannity last night, and Juan Williams and another lib were scared of this discussion when Shaun and Mark Levin pressed the issue.


178 posted on 03/26/2007 9:18:38 AM PDT by patriotspride
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To: ASA Vet

Iranian heavy cruiser?


179 posted on 03/26/2007 9:24:22 AM PDT by Thombo2 (I don't even bother trying to discuss Iraq with the lib/dims at work/)
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To: BIGLOOK

Oh yes, the Iranian airliner loaded with dead corpses which would taken out a US Navy Ship if it hadn't been downed.

Our navy has more danger from Islamo Kazi airliners filled with dead civilians than from the Iranian navy.


180 posted on 03/26/2007 10:44:03 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (GW has more Honor and Integrity in his little finger than ALL of the losers on the "hate Bush" band)
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To: OldFriend

c.f. USS Pueblo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uss_pueblo


181 posted on 03/26/2007 11:37:30 AM PDT by Locomotive Breath (In the shuffling madness)
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To: Enterprise
That song/Hymn got me through boot camp...I still get goosebumps when I hear it.
182 posted on 03/26/2007 11:53:06 AM PDT by TheGunny (Re-read 1&2 Corinthians)
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To: george76

I don't believe clinton was ever called for permission to fire on the small boat approaching the USS Cole.

Can you provide more details?

thanx


183 posted on 03/26/2007 12:13:03 PM PDT by OldFriend ( TOM DeLAY FAN)
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To: blackie

Winston Churchill would never have sent off his military with a no shoot ROE.


184 posted on 03/26/2007 2:00:13 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Grampa Dave

I always wondered if the Iranians were planning a 9-11 type civilian airliner crash into a naval war ship ?

The Iranians would not care if a few hundred civilians died ?



185 posted on 03/26/2007 2:03:32 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: OldFriend; Grampa Dave

I thought that the Cole did not have permission to fire their weapons in port and that their guns were not loaded.

My recollection ( could be wrong ) is that the DOD had given orders to the Captain to not post armed guards in port. Also that the Captain was not aware of the attack until after the explosion.

Please help me if I am wrong.




186 posted on 03/26/2007 2:11:19 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

The crew of the Cole were basically unarmed thanks to the Clintoons and the Goron.

Now we have President Bush, and things have changed.

However, most of us, who served in the Cold War in potentially hot areas, know that we often had PC ROEs, that placed us in danger if the commies decided to take us out or make an issue of us. It has been a problem since the Korean War, thanks to Truman and the UN.


187 posted on 03/26/2007 2:34:13 PM PDT by Grampa Dave (GW has more Honor and Integrity in his little finger than ALL of the losers on the "hate Bush" band)
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To: george76

Roger that!!


188 posted on 03/26/2007 3:27:24 PM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: gpapa

Humm hadn't seen that part. Well now we wait.


189 posted on 03/26/2007 4:09:22 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (We stand on the bridge and no one may pass.)
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To: Grampa Dave
Oh yes, the Iranian airliner loaded with dead corpses which would taken out a US Navy Ship if it hadn't been downed.

I heard that too, Dave. The Vincennes squawked the IFF and got conflicting signals; one from the air liner and one from a hostile. Aegis system took over and took out the air liner. Rumor has it the air liner was cover for a trailing old F-14 from the Shah's AF.

The bodies recovered were dead....long dead... but the international incident had life.
190 posted on 03/26/2007 7:52:24 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: george76

The Cole incident never would have happened had the Clinton administration not denied UNREPS and left the Cole to replenish in a foreign port.


191 posted on 03/26/2007 7:56:39 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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As the crew members were surrounded in their two rubber dinghies, the Cornwall’s commander, Commodore Nick Lambert, frantically radioed back to his own top brass for instructions.

The response to the inquiry, which had been immediately patched through to Ministry of Defence headquarters in Whitehall, was to hold fire.

The order to show restraint has been observed throughout the forces and the British government in the 48 hours since, but it is unclear how long both sides will be able to maintain control.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=462812007


192 posted on 04/07/2007 9:20:44 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

The British navy has suspended all boarding operations of cargo vessels in the northern Gulf while a complete review of the practice is under way following the capture - and release - of 15 navy personnel by Iran, it was confirmed Friday. The head of the British Navy, Admiral Jonathon Band, said in a BBC interview that the boarding operations of merchant vessels suspected of illegal cargo had been suspended while a “complete review” of the incident which led to the sailors being seized is carried out.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1813593/posts


193 posted on 04/07/2007 9:42:27 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: ASA Vet
And he knows that how???? : )

Just wondering?

194 posted on 04/07/2007 9:53:52 AM PDT by Chgogal (Vote Al Qaeda. Vote Democrat.)
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To: Chgogal

Which “he” are you asking about?


195 posted on 04/07/2007 10:03:42 AM PDT by ASA Vet (The WOT should have been over on 11/5/1979.)
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To: Weight of Glory

I remember 3 US soldiers taken without a shot fired in Kosovo in, what? 97?


196 posted on 04/07/2007 10:06:07 AM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (There's an open road from the cradle to the tomb.)
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To: ASA Vet
Hi, I’m just wondering what your source was. It is a very interesting piece of information.

Just a friendly inquiry.

197 posted on 04/07/2007 10:06:47 AM PDT by Chgogal (Vote Al Qaeda. Vote Democrat.)
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To: Weight of Glory
"I don't know if the US Navy would have fired," True, always tough to say what you WOULD do. However, at least our guys SAY they would do it; and in the world of "don't-say-this-or-that" it is something!

Actually we do know what the US would have done. US Soldiers have already fired upon Iranians trying to capture them. Been there done that...kicked ass and they came home.

The soldiers who were there still talk about the September 7 firefight on the Iran-Iraq border in whispers. At Forward Operating Base Warhorse, the main U.S. military outpost in Iraq's eastern Diyala Province bordering Iran, U.S. troops recount events reluctantly, offering details only on condition that they remain nameless. Everyone seems to sense the possible consequences of revealing that a clash between U.S. and Iranian forces had turned deadly. And although the Pentagon has acknowledged that a firefight took place, it says it cannot say anything more. "For that level of detail, you're going to have to ask the [U.S.] military in Baghdad," says Army Lieut. Col. Mark Ballesteros. "We don't know anything about it."

Duh...thats what you do when you are fired upon by crazy Muslims...you fire back and kill the btards. Then you deny...hehe. Everyone gets the message...especially the soldiers under your command. They get the message that they are NOT expendable...contrary to the British wussies who now have gotten the message loud and clear that if you stray away from something too large to surrender peacefully, HMS Cromwell, you are done for...

198 posted on 04/07/2007 10:11:38 AM PDT by PierreLegrand
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

As long as John Howard is PM - Australia would come to our side. By the time the Brits appeased their muslims, it would be all over with.


199 posted on 04/07/2007 10:23:57 AM PDT by daybreakcoming
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To: daybreakcoming

Consider the diffences in “rules of engagement” under the various presidents.

Under ANY clinton presidency we would have Carter-esque surrender style rules. A paper tiger which holds all conflice is a “police matter”.

I think the British military is going to pay a serious price for their weakness for many years to come.


200 posted on 04/07/2007 10:40:50 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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