Posted on 04/20/2007 9:48:58 AM PDT by archy
Unarmed and vulnerable
Bradford B. Wiles
Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.
On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: "You need to get out of the building."
Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.
It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.
Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.
I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.
First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.
Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.
Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.
Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.
That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.
I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, "I would feel safer if you had your gun."
The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.
I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.
This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.
I know some will jump on me for this but I have a problem, again, with thousands of students carrying weapons on campus. Considering the original post, what do people think would have happened if these students had been armed and went running out of the building, weapons drawn, and met a bunch of heavly armed police? I think we would have had another big disaster on our hands. The police would not have know who these kids were. There’s got to be another answer.
WHy would any of them have run out of the building with weapons drawn? Are they all stupid or something?
They would have come out with their weapons aloft, cheering, having toasted the perp.
Do you think the police would have killed 32 of them? Even one or two *friendly fire* incidents by incompetent cops would have been better than more than 50 shot, 32 killed.
Hi, we're the police and we're here to save you. Now get your hands up or you're a dead mother****er!* 
Then you prefer unarmed corpses? Do you "have a problem" with however many students have carry permits carrying around Blacksburg? I don't seem to remember reading that it ever caused any problems, and I'm sure I would have remembered.
During hunting season at my high school in West Virginia , just about every student car in the parking lot had one or more guns in them. And a lot of the teachers cars did, too. Granted there was never any shootings, but it wouldn’t have last long, if there were.
Unarmed and Vulnerable...
Just the way Rudy Giuliani likes us.
What if, what if, what if.......
God, people likeyou make me sick! The 32 dead are not “what if’s”....they are real dead people!
What if an asteroid hit right at the time the shootings started....that might’ve stopped it too!
Militant
get your head out of your a$$.
no one who’s been trained in firearms safety and earned a concealed carry permit is going to go off half-cocked (pardon the pun) in an emergency. They’re not going to confront law enforcement; they will focus on reducing the threat—and once the threat has been neutralized, the weapons are laid down on the ground.
Responsible concealed carry training delineates when one can and cannot use a firearm. Rational people who have gone to the length of being trained in firearms use (and abuse) are not the problem.
The bottom line determinator is “are you in fear for your life?” If you are, there’s no rational reason for you to be deprived of the use of the “great equalizer.”
I think it's time for America to become an armed camp for a while.
I don't think that is what would happen. A more likely scenario is that the armed students would seek cover inside, and engage a gunmen if he happened upon them. If asked to evacuate the building, they would do so with their sidearms still holstered and concealed.
You make it sound like everyone would be running around wild-eyed waving handguns in the air, but that's Hollyweird stuff.
There isn't. Face the hard facts of life. Why would some nut risk pulling his weapon if he knew he was surrounded by people who would shoot him down? The fact that so many would be carrying terrifies these cowards. And these wacko shooters are cowards. Else they would go in police stations instead of schools.
Every time some state debates legal carry, the cacophony from the nei-sayers is monosyllabic “its gonna be blood in the streets, Tomb Stone, gunfights on EVERY corner, carnage......”
I’m still waiting for this to happen.
Because he's an irrational nut. Poor fellow.
Drop him before he can hurt anyone/ anyone else.
I doubt there would be ‘thousands’ of students carrying weapons on campus. It would only have taken one, in this case.
Oh no. There's already a law in place for dealing with school administrators and others who've deprived the victims of their constitutionally-guaranteed right to bear arms with which to protect themselves. It's time to use it.
United States Code, TITLE 18, U.S. Criminal Code
PART I, CHAPTER 13, Section 242
Deprivation of rights under color of law:
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both;
and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
It's not going to be "thousands" . . . it will be those students who are trained, dedicated, and willing to go through the necessary hassle to get a carry permit.
They would have the sense and education not to go running around like liberal chickens, waving their firearms in the air (why do you think any trained person would do such a silly thing?)
But, actually, the simple knowledge that carry-permitted citizens were allowed to be on the VT campus would have probably given this evil SOB pause. If it hadn't, a carry-permitted citizen could well have stopped him before he slaughtered 31 disarmed, helpless students.
I've had a CCP ever since Georgia put the legal machinery in place to get one . . . back in the 70s some time, I think. I've never had to shoot anybody, I've never had a problem with the police. I have had two encounters with wannabe muggers, who immediately decided to seek easier prey when I took up a defensive position. Naturally, no police happened to be around on either occasion.
This is not a flame, but you appear to be letting your fears of the unknown overtake you. You probably didn’t grow up handling firearms and may be uncomfortable around them. You are not alone. You also apparently don’t understand the training, testing, and thorough background checks you have to go through to get a CHL. You can be sure that only good guys, reasonably proficient with a firearm, and with clean records can get a CHL.
To your concers, “thousands” of students would not be armed at any campus. The CHL process has been around a long time and the percentage of people who actually get one is fairly low. Most students are not of proper age anyway, so it would be primarily professors and grad students (such as the man who wrote the article) that choose to carry a handgun.
Next, anyone who has gone through the process of obtaining a CHL understands that an unjustified shooting can land you in jail for a long time, so they aren’t likely to draw or shoot unless they are truly in fear of losing their life. Also, as a CHL holder, if you actually have to take out a bad guy to save your life, your next worry is going to be the police, who were not there to know you are actually a good guy, taking you out. Therefore, you will take every precaution in such a situation to make sure they know you are not a bad guy. Running out the door with your gun in your hand would not be advised in that situation.
Anyway, I hope that helps you better understand what the author is suggesting.
I totally understand what you are saying. To help though, I have a total of seven weapons in my home. I was in the military and I know what happens in a fire fight. Thousands of rounds can be fired without hitting the target.
My concern is not reacting after the fact. The point I want to reach is to stop this from happening in the first place. People seem to jump to the idea of “arm everybody” that is of the age to carry a weapon. I am an excellent shot, I know what happens when being fired at. Going to a firing range and being shot at are two different things. I am very good at both. But thank you for your concern. Again, people need to get together and come up with a way to stop this from happening. It won’t happen by reacting after the fact.
Looks to me like that law is tailored for the occasion. Hope someone uses it.
This is an excellent op-ed piece..... thank the author for writing it at bwiles@vt.edu
Concur. *More* at FReeppost *here*.
My response was to ask him if he had heard about the incident in that gun store where this fellow walked past the patrol car parked out front, into the store and past a customer, to where the cop was talking to the owner at the counter, and then pull out a pistol and demand money... upon which the cop, the store owner, and the customer all pulled out their weapons and dropped him?
In other words, I might sympathize politely with him and would feel badly if a relative or someone I knew began wildly waving a weapon about and paid with their lives, but only a complete loon would think that that was an acceptable manner of behavior, and I might express sympathy with their demise -but inwardly I would know that the gene pool is better off when they can no longer affect it. There is a reason why most people find the "Darwin Awards" so apt and oftentimes so amusing.
You seem to be deferring to others to solve that.
Thanks for the reference, mate. Copied and saved.
“You make it sound like everyone would be running around wild-eyed waving handguns in the air, but that’s Hollyweird stuff.”
Since the incident I have been closely watching the DUmmie postings. When this subject of concealed carry is brought up this is EXACTLY what they think would have happened. People shooting wildly in all directions and a higher number of dead than the 32. In the past I have seen this mentioned multiple times over there. Poor saps really do not have a clue.
Link to original and *partner* statute text here:
18 US Code, § 241. Conspiracy against rights
18 US Code, § 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law
“The police would not have know who these kids were. There’s got to be another answer.”
leave it to the armed students as they are not as easilly confused as the cops apparently were.
Actually, that student should sue the school for reckless endangerment. Their decision to keep their students helpless resulted in death and injury.
The school removed the right to self defense while not providing adequate security.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Your post is filled with absurd assumptions.
No wonder you came to an irrational conclusion.
You suffer from a bad case of inability to be in another's shoes. Up against the wall with a crazy executing your friends by walking down the line while YOU cry? Maybe you need to be there.
Whats unsafe about "thousands" of trained individuals carrying hand guns? We have tens of thousands of young folks carrying weapons now in Iraq, How do they manage not to shoot each other?
Ones safety is ultimately ion one'sown hands. There is nothing you or anyone can do about that fact, but still we got people lookin' for Momma to protect us. Is there something inherently dangerous about one being able to use deadly force? Many can use their bare hands to generate deadly force, or a chair, or a lamp. Its not about guns, its about a culture war that conservatives are losing because they do not have very clear ideas.
“I know some will jump on me for this but I have a problem, again, with thousands of students carrying weapons on campus. Considering the original post, what do people think would have happened if these students had been armed and went running out of the building, weapons drawn, and met a bunch of heavly armed police? “
I’m not going to “jump” on you, simply point out the logical fallacy of your argument. In Virginia, there are roughly six million people, of whom just over 100,000 have concealed handgun permits. Add to that those who carry openly without a permit, which while legal in Virginia, is relatively uncommon. So for the sake argument let’s assume that of 6,000,000 people in Virginia, 150,000 people have the ability and the willingness to lawfully carry a handgun. I think that number is high, but let’s go with it.
Now, let’s consider how many at any given time are actually carrying. Those who don’t actually carry a gun assume that people with permits carry guns all the time. They don’t. Actually, I’d be surprised if the average CHP holder carries more than 25% of the time. The plain truth is that a gun is heavy and quite literally a pain in the hip to carry around with you all the time. Then there are the idiotic laws to contend with, such as Virginia’s restaurant ban which restricts where a gun can be carried and thus further reduces the likelihood of someone carrying at any given time. If you carry a gun, you must have a way to secure it when you go some place where you can’t carry.
Do the math, and it’s highly unlikely that you’re going to find more than 1-2% of the population actually carrying a gun in most social circumstances, with the obvious exception of events like gun shows that attract those who carry guns. The reason why you’re not going to have this mass shootout scenario that we keep hearing about is because you’re just not going to find a lot of people carrying guns at any one given time.
Even if students and faculty at Virginia Tech had been able to carry, it is doutful that more than a handful would have been carrying at the time and place that this murderer went on his rampage. But you see that’s the key. All that was really needed was one or two people with both the tools and willingness to resist.
Larry Hincker; VA Tech spokesman and Vice President.
2005 - "I think it's fair to say that we believe guns don't belong in the classroom. In an academic environment, we believe you should be free from fear." - Larry Hincker2006 - "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions, because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." - Larry Hincker celebrating the defeat of the bill allowing guns on campus
Larry Hincker; VA Tech spokesman and Vice President
First, I want to see him lose his job. Then I want to see the civil suits by parents and family members break him financially.
And having him sentenced to prison would be fitting, but I don't expect it. However, if the father or brother of a murdered student kills Hincker, there'd be no problem about it if I was on the jury.
Hincker was Cho's accomplice, plain anbd simple.
“I know some will jump on me for this but I have a problem, again, with thousands of students carrying weapons on campus.”
Ridiculous assumption. Almost nobody under the age of 21 has a CCW permit. It is way more likely that a few professors and grad students could be armed, not thousands of students.
Unfortunately I expect that he won't be held personally responsible in any lawsuit the university will. I think it's right that the university be held accountable for negligence and irresponsible acts but on the other side of that coin the whole university community will suffer if they have to pay out tens of millions of dollars.
I'd like to see a strong community push to end the PC Gun Free Zone policy. Students getting very vocal about ending that and establishing firearms and self-defense classes and CCL prep classes in the school. Establish a shooting club and a range. Get hardcore 2nd Amendment on them. Let no liberal illogic go unchallenged in the harshest loudest terms.
Honestly, there shouldn’t be any publicly funded schools, because the concept of running a school is inconsistent with the concept of providing all Constitutional rights that a person would have on public property. But as long as there are, they should be free to set their own policies on guns just as a private school should be (though most private schools aren’t, due to state laws prohibiting guns at any school). There are different kinds of colleges. reasonably selective ones should reasonably be able to allow guns on campus IF they are allowed to kick out and decline to admit students based on mental illness (which is unfortunately not the case with the current ADA). On the other hand, a open-admissions or near open-admissions college in a crime infested area is by definition admitting a lot of sketchy people as students, and also has all sorts of random non-students roaming through some of its facilities. Prohibiting students (not faculty or staff) from carrying guns on that sort of campus makes a lot of sense, given that the student body may include gang members, professional drug dealers, etc. Needless to say, this latter sort of school also needs metal detectors for enforcement, to avoid the phenomenon of the criminals having guns while the law-abiding students don’t. And lockers in which to check guns at the entrance to campus must be available, to avoid infringing on students’ rights to carry elsewhere while going to and from the campus.
There should also be a federal law, or if necessary a Constitutional amendment, protecting any individual or institution, public or private, from liability for anything that happens as a result of (or arguably as a result of) a policy of permitting guns on their property. That fear of liability is what drives most prohibitions on guns at both public and private establishments, and this ends up being a huge threat to the Second Amendment, since it results in many people regarding carrying a gun as a very unusual and thus suspect activity. It makes no difference what the Second Amendment says now, if a sufficient percentage of the population is shifted to a belief that it needs to be repealed.
I'm afraid from reading his/her previous posts, the head is firmly planted therein.
You do know that RC2 has told us he/she was once an armed guard for foreign dignitaries, don't you? Believe it?
Re RC2’s post #20, now he’s former military. Previously he guarded foreign dignitaries. Could be both, but the story keeps getting changed.
I sent this on to a friend in the Metropolitan Police in Wales. I await his reaction.
Yes, it would be nice if there was "another way". But until moral character is reintroduced into the mentality of the general population, being prepared to defend one's life with lethal force is a *real good idea*. Of course, lacking that, a chair thrown, a knife, ANYTHING is better than just cowering behind a desk waiting your turn to be slaughtered. Again, the mind is the real weapon.
Of course, that still leaves the problem presented by creatures like Cho, who are not American citizens and bring their own foreign brand of brainwashing to our shores when they come here. Again, the solution is to be able to neutralize the threat as soon as it presents itself. And if the threat has a gun, you damned well better have one too. I'm not saying I like it; I'm saying that's the way it is.
It is sad to note that a large undercurrent to the whole cowardice-as-courage mindset is the simple fact that these sheep do not trust themselves with their own preservation, and thus they do not trust their peers either. Of course, just slap a badge on someone and *Bingo!*, there's their superhero to save the day.
Pathetic, really, and all too common.
So it was better to just have one?
considering the original post, what do people think would have happened if these students had been armed and went running out of the building, weapons drawn, and met a bunch of heavly armed police?
Nowhere in the letter did this CC holder say he would have charged out of the building with his gun drawn. In fact, he said it wasn't until he saw all the heavily armed police running around that he felt helpless. It is entirely reasonable to infer he would not have drawn the firearm prior to being helpless due to his training to obtain the CCPermit.
That same training would also dictate that he didn't draw the weapon until he saw an immediate threat - which means, since he is alive to write this letter that has you so bothered, he never would have drawn his firearm.
Hundreds of thousands of CC holders regularly carry and never draw their firearms...so your concern is unfounded.
It is the non CC holders who draw their concealed firearms...and kill unarmed people.
He could be DITHF for all we know. (Obscure FR reference)
As almost all defensive firearms instructors teach:
Never escalate the level of violence.
Sorry archy- I didn’t notice at 1st that you HAD posted the original date.....mea culpa...LOL
You have absolutely NO clue about gun ownership.
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