Hate Crime Is Charged in Attack on Sikh Boy

NY Times ^ | May 26, 2007 | CARA BUCKLEY

[Old Student]

In so far as I know, most Muslims abandon the turban as soon as they arrive here. Sikhs wear it as a religious devotion, along with the kirpan and iron bracelet. I can’t imagine a young man (IIRC, this kid was 17) not having been trained to use such a thing, and taking scissors away from an attacker seems to me sufficient proof of self-defense. So would using a pencil to stab him after he forcibly removed the turban.

I know there are people who have feces for brains here in the US who can’t tell the difference between a Muslim and a Sikh. That doesn’t mean he’s not allowed to defend himself.

[Old Student]

wrong. Attacker was 17, victim was 15... Otherwise, I still wonder about all this.

[Gideon Reader]

This forum and this subject is not meant to be a Dick measuring contest.
When you are one 15 or 16 year old boy with no desire to rule or dominate among your peers and outnumbered and outsized; the subject of vastly superior opposing raiding force, all of the one on one bullshit in the world does not add up to a moment of reality.
South Bronx rules as played by South Bronx residents are a mite different than the ordinary schoolyard push and shove.
Alone against four or five or more is not the odds a young and civilized kid wants to go against everyday for the foreseeable future. Capish? Lunch money was forfeitable as was the ephemeral concept of honor. Death or disfigurement is so much more permanent.
So,....one contains oneself and one waits and waits.
Revenge against nonentities? Useless. Besides, who wants it? Police protection or reports were unobtainable without hard evidence or grievous bodily harm.
School administration assistance? Less than useless. The New York City School system has always been less than helpfull, whether attempting the forlorn hope of education or protecting their students.
So one waits. And one learns. Eventually the individual blooms, becomes skilled in subjects that moot threats that once seem unsurmountable. Real life experiences and acquired skills liberate greatly. And one blesses the 2nd Amendment and sanctifies it by going armed every single day of ones life in it's honor.

This anecdote was not a thinly disguised racist screed against the poor black kids. It is a simple relating of a circumstance that was a wonderful learning experience.
Everybody in my neighborhood was poor. However, we were NOT all antisocial animals who found joy in being predators and the feeding as would canibals on our contemporaries. Hmmmm.Sometimes this is a nasty old world. So I wish Kol HaKovod (all strength) to the young Sikh boy and advise him to wait. This terrible experience will turn out to be a liberating lesson in who he is and how he may overcome it in the end.

[Gideon Reader]

Muslims are bareheaded or wear a Kufi, sort of an over sized Kippa.
Generally not turbans, exceept in particcular /national ethnic circumstances.

[DieHard the Hunter]

> Thats the first and the biggest misconception and for you.....its a sure give away that you have no idea or knowledge about Pakistan.

No, it’s a sure giveaway to your pro-India bias. Having been born and bred in Vancouver I have a fair knowledge of Pakistanis and Pakistan. And Indians and India, for that matter. There are a fair few of each over there, ya know...

> If you have enemies, you have enemies. You can choose your friends, not enemies. Closing your eyes and and pretending that the Pakees are your friend wont make actually make them your friend.

So far the Pakistanis have done a credible job in the WOT — certainly more than India has done.

> On the contrary it actually would, if only America had any sense to realise that.

So this Muslim kid who bullied the Sikh kid would somehow be directly punished by India foolishly attacking Pakistan? Get off the grass, mate, you’re stoned already!

> How so? When was the last time India was allowed to take care of Pakistan without America intervening to save Pakistan’s ass?

India couldn’t keep Pakistan from separating once the Brits left, and India has not been able to cope with Pakistan since. No point blaming the US for that: India outnumbers Pakistan AND the US combined. India is a subcontinent with untold wealth and natural resources: without excuse. So why not just go do it? (Answer: because India just CAN’T.)

> Spare me the geography lesson kid, I am originally Indian and been across 3 different continents. The Kiwis too have a funny shape.

Son, if you have only been to three continents then you need to get out more. Kiwis do have a funny shape: look on your atlas to the lower-left-hand corner, further than even Hawaii. That’s us! Just to the right of Australia (we call OZ “West Island”)

> the NZ SAS cant catch a chicken.

(guffaw!) And the Indian army couldn’t catch a cold! They had better stay away from the Pakistanis with both feet, else the Pakistanis might spank them. Hard.

India can’t dominate Pakistan at the cricket — what makes you think you could sort them out by force of arms?

> I bet you are “rooting” for Pak. You would know what I am talking about if you are a real Kiwi ;)

If you’re a real Indian you’d know that you’d be truly rooted if you attacked Pakistan. Poked beyond all possible recovery.

*DieHard*

[DieHard the Hunter]

> You could have enlightened him a little more gently, you know. Could be he’s just not as informed as you are.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

[DieHard the Hunter]

> Also, DieHard, India now dwarfs the old Empire in power, common sense and morality. We leave the things of yesterdays empires in the past. Cultures that follow the tenet, pride goes before destruction, have risen. India is one of those cultures. It was also an ancient Hebrew proverb and has been part of our US culture (until recently, may we realize it again).

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Big words do not an Empire make.

[gotribe]

Again. With the greatest respect.

Well, that clues it. Perhaps we should take this out in the street.

[Gengis Khan]

“The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

Be sure you wont be eating any pudding but a humble pie. Wait another decade or so.

[familyop]

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Big words do not an Empire make."

We in the USA are more oriented toward independence and willing allies than to empire and condescending dominion. Most of the FR allegiance to "empire" went away with radical Giuliani support. Let those foreigners who pine for lost empires continue with their support of Islamo-fascism.

[familyop]

"Be sure you wont be eating any pudding but a humble pie. Wait another decade or so."

Yes. We'll find out as to where the pursuit of empire in Eurabia leads them.

[Gideon Reader]

“Well, that clues it.Perhaps we should take this out in the street.”

What the hell does THAT mean?

Verbal obfuscation appears to be the rule here.
Make your point. Defend your position. Or retire from the field.

[steve8714]

Many Pakis hate everybody. I’ve known many, they are nice guys, then they go home for a visit and come back with a beard, a round hat and an attitude.

[DieHard the Hunter]

>> “Be sure you wont be eating any pudding but a humble pie. Wait another decade or so.”

> Yes. We’ll find out as to where the pursuit of empire in Eurabia leads them.

“Hippocleides cares not!” (Herodotus)

From my viewpoint, I care not. The entire Indian subcontinent can go hang for all we care in the South Pacific, except you lot tend to play a decent game of cricket.

Nobody wants an empire in Eurabia. What a waste of time!

Anybody in India with any get-up-and-go got-up-and-went yonks ago. What are left are those who didn’t because they couldn’t.

*DieHard*

[DieHard the Hunter]

> Let those foreigners who pine for lost empires continue with their support of Islamo-fascism.

Whatever that means. I’m a republican.

[familyop]

"Anybody in India with any get-up-and-go got-up-and-went yonks ago. What are left are those who didn’t because they couldn’t."

Hindus continue to come to the USA and get along here better than most others. They're very generous, and it's a pleasure to work with them.

My western European clients/bosses were extremely anti-American and hateful. They concentrated on hiring only people of foreign cultures and American women.

The Muslim Pakistanis I've worked with for more than a few months were eventually threatening and vulgar against others.

The Hindus I've worked with and gone to for services, on the other hand, were more competent, considerate and friendly.

[DieHard the Hunter]

> The Muslim Pakistanis I’ve worked with for more than a few months were eventually threatening and vulgar against others.

> The Hindus I’ve worked with and gone to for services, on the other hand, were more competent, considerate and friendly.

I find generalizations about people to be unhelpful at best.

Lumping people together into subjective categories is just plain wrong.

It’s like saying all Jews are greedy (definitely some are) or all Scots are mean (definitely some are — I am) or all Cretans are liars (definitely some are) or all Frenchmen are cowards (definitely some are) or all Germans are gross (definitely some are) or all Chinese are sneaky (definitely some are) or all Japanese are cheats (definitely some are), or all Americans are braggarts and bullies (definitely some are), or all Catholics are Apostate (definitely some are) or all Protestants are Bigots (definitely some are)...

Would that life were that simple! But it just isn’t.

The mere notion that “all we need to do is let India attack Pakistan and all will be well in the world” is merely puerile silly bloody nonsense-on-stilts. Jolly-bollix.

As if India could manage a full-on war with Pakistan! Crikey, it is to laugh! India is a great country with fantastic food and very brave soldiers (particularly the Sikhs and the Ghurkas borrowed from Nepal) but let’s get real: to conduct a war you need a unified country and India is everything but that! The Hindoos are not the Sikhs, and the Christian Indians aren’t any of either. A few thoroughly corrupt family dynasties run the show, most the rest of India lives lower-middle-class or subsistence level. And nevermind Ceylon / Sri Langka, just to the south: they have a much better cricket team than India, and their Tamil warriors tend to fight to the death...

Go ahead, tho’ — attack Pakistan if you must, but at your peril. Pakistan would open a large can of whup-ass on India and it would serve you lot right.

[design engineer]

I agree with your first few paras on how sweeping generalizations are often untrue, since there must be atleast a few decent people everywhere - even in Pakistan.

Indians do love Ghulam Ali and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan as much as Pakistanis love Lata Mangeshkar and Mohammad Rafi. Culturally, we are much closer to Pakistanis than to any other people in the entire world, afterall..since most Indians and Pakistanis speak the same language.

Its just that their "social" culture of Islamic fundamentalism, which has been gradually encouraged by their politicians and some Arab nations, that has created a very potent radical minority. A virulent anti-Indian sentiment has been continually nourished by those Islamic fundamentalists over there.

That said, the latter part of your post is quite speculatory and condescending towards India.

You know, its not just Sikhs and Gurkhas and Rajputs, there are people from all communities who are involved. Lots of Christians are in Indian navy.. The general who led Indian armies to victory against Pakistan in the 1971 war was an Indian JEW ? Or the fact that the first Indian Chief of staff was a PARSI ?

While I'm no expert on army related issues or who can fight better or not, I definitely think the following statement you made is utterly ridiculous -->

Go ahead, tho’ — attack Pakistan if you must, but at your peril. Pakistan would open a large can of whup-ass on India and it would serve you lot right.

Surely, they have shown how brave they were in 1947, 1965, 1971 and 1999. The humiliation of having the entire world (especially US and China) supporting them on the Bangladesh issue and still surrendering their entire eastern armed forces with 95,000 soldiers ! says a lot about their "bravery"... not to mention the Kargil war of 1999, when their own army did not even pick up the bodies of their dead soldiers.

[sheik yerbouty]

The knife must be sewn into the garment to prevent it from being used..

[DieHard the Hunter]

> Alone against four or five or more is not the odds a young and civilized kid wants to go against everyday for the foreseeable future.

Alone against four or five opponents would be insurmountable odds for most trained fighters — let alone a civilized kid.

As you said: hand over the lunch money and wait. A sensible response whether it be in the South Bronx or in the South Pacific.

OTOH, if they won’t be satisfied with lunch money, if instead they are after *you*, then a different response is necessary: one that requires tacit acknowledgement that during the next few moments of concentrated violence you are certainly going to get badly hurt. And, hopefully, so will at least one of your assailants.

This is a difficult mental leap for many people to make: it goes contrary to our built-in survival instinct.