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Gay Marriage is a Socialist experiment
Morse Code ^ | June 15, 2007 | Chuck Morse

Posted on 06/15/2007 8:20:07 AM PDT by Chuckmorse

Socialists have historically understood that in order to implement total government, which is what socialism is, institutions that foster freedom and individual independence would have to be weakened. Total government is, after all, against human nature, which is inclined toward individual rights, private ownership, belief in a divine creator, and the sovereignty of nation-states designed to preserve, protect, and defend those natural rights.

Besides belief in God, private property, and private industry, the basic family unit is a bulwark of freedom and, therefore, an obstacle to socialism. Developed over millennia, conventional marriage has been universally respected as an essential institution. Marriage represents the most formidable obstacle to government control.

Hence, the totalitarian minded socialist figured out how to undermine marriage. Overt as well as subtle attempts have been undertaken over centuries to undermine marriage and gay marriage is only the most recent effort. Since two men or two women cannot actually be married, legal recognition of gay marriage should be viewed as a manufactured straw dog invented to weaken and ultimately destroy the natural and freedom fostering institution of marriage. As recently as seven years ago, gay marriage was unheard of.

The pro gay marriage advocates sold the idea of state recognized gay marriage to the general public by arguing that gay couples were being deprived of certain marriage benefits such as inheritance rights, health insurance, and hospital visits. Yet many of these issues have been rightfully resolved by private sector social pressure on business and by could be resolved by state legislation. State recognition of gay marriage actually discriminates against other alternative families who could also argue that they should receive these benefits. The states, and the private sector, do not have to recognize a gay relationship in order to provide benefits that should, at any rate, be made available to alternative families especially when minor dependents are involved.

Committed relationships for homosexuals should be encouraged and these relationships have generally not viewed as controversial. Especially gay men are well served to find a life partner and, therefore, reduce promiscuous behavior which increase exposure to disease and violence. A stable gay relationship, with many of the trappings of traditional marriage, is a conservative development, which should be encouraged for homosexuals. The controversy is not over the committed relationship between homosexuals but rather with the insistence that the relationship be turned into a state recognized marriage.

Legal gay marriage will mean that the gay marriage will be legally equal to conventional marriage. This opens the door to conflict with people and organized religions that consider homosexual activity to be immoral. Neither side in this thorny debate should have a right to impose its belief on the other by using the force of law. Our society should encourage tolerance of differences and respect for opposing views without resorting to laws that would banish the opposition. Legally recognized gay marriage will lead to government outlawing opinion as has already happened in Canada. The trend is already underway as “hate crime” legislation is being debated in Congress.

There was no way gay marriage would lose in Massachusetts, which is why there will never be a vote on the issue. Now that gay marriage will be legal in Massachusetts, it will be interesting to see how swiftly state schools move toward teaching young people about homosexuality in the name of tolerance, how rapidly political crimes are established in the name of safety, and how soon the Defense of Marriage Act, signed into law by President Clinton, which allowed the respective states to craft their own marriage legislation, is challenged. Now that it’s legal in Massachusetts, gay marriage will not likely to fade into the distance, which is what would likely happen if left to its own devices. Instead, we can expect to see more agitation. This should be as much proof as is needed to conclude that the issue is no actually gay marriage but, rather, a socialist agenda.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: gay; homosexualagenda; marriage; modernliberalism; romneylegacy; samesexmarriage

1 posted on 06/15/2007 8:20:10 AM PDT by Chuckmorse
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To: Chuckmorse

TO Mr. Chuck Morse... We the Sound-minded People of the United States don’t need any Socialism and We don’t need or want Homosexuality, even Homosexual Marriage.


2 posted on 06/15/2007 8:23:41 AM PDT by ExcursionGuy84 ("Jesus, Your Love takes my breath away.")
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To: Chuckmorse
Marxists use anarchism as a means to their end.

Marxists seek to seize total power.


3 posted on 06/15/2007 8:25:16 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Chuckmorse

Not an experiment.

Part of a many-pronged strategy to continuously question legal authority, and make the legal system so bound up, that no serious challenge can be dealt with. All these frivolous issues keep the attention of almost everybody diverted from the REAL problems that face all of us collectively.


4 posted on 06/15/2007 8:25:32 AM PDT by alloysteel (Choose carefully the hill you would die upon. For if you win, the view is magnificent.)
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To: Chuckmorse

Leftists believe in the perfectibility of man.

Conservatives believe in the fallen nature of man.

Gay Marriage is an experiment Leftists find reasonable, as if the nature of man established in every society in the history of the world can be overcome by changing enough peoples’ minds.

Gay Marriage is an overthrow of foundational principles of civilization for Conservatives, which we viscerally expect to be destructive because it contradicts human’s general nature.

Marriage is about children, and society approves of Marriage of one man and one woman as the optimal functional unit for raising children. No other construct has ever proven more successful. Regardless of equality arguments for the adults involved, the child is the point.

Are you willing to bet generations of children on alternative marriage models?

Leftists say “Yes.” Conservatives say “No.”


5 posted on 06/15/2007 8:29:01 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (NY Times poll: 69% of Americans think illegal immigrants should be prosecuted & deported)
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To: Chuckmorse
Socialists have historically understood that in order to implement total government, which is what socialism is, institutions that foster freedom and individual independence would have to be weakened.

I'll let others debate the rest of the article, but the first paragraph is something I've been saying for some time. By my view, libertarians and social conservatives should be natural allies.

For libertarians who dismiss the role of church and family in society, the destruction of those institutions inevitably leaves a vacuum for the state to fill. The breakdown of the family as an organizing institution in society is a major reason for the size and intrusiveness of the state today. Roles that were once the province of families have now been assumed by the state. The same can be said of the church, particularly when you look at charity and welfare.

Likewise, social conservatives who would see the state instill more moral regulation in society in order to instill "family values" should know that the state is utterly incapable of instilling family values. Only families can do that. Where the state is involved, only state values are promoted. When the state is relied upon to strengthen families and promote religion, families and religion are instead weakened and made subservient to the state.

Limited government depends on traditional values and institutions, and traditional values and institutions require limited government. Libertarianism and social conservatism should not exist in dichotomy.

< / tangental rant>
6 posted on 06/15/2007 8:31:03 AM PDT by The Pack Knight (Duty, Honor, Country. Friend of Fred.)
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To: Brad Cloven
Are you willing to bet generations of children on alternative marriage models?

I totally agree that a stable home with married parents is the best way to raise children.

I just don't see how letting other people who generally do not have kids get married ruins it for married people and their children.
7 posted on 06/15/2007 8:50:00 AM PDT by HaveHadEnough
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To: Chuckmorse

Anybody know this quote from Margaret Thatcher? I couldn’t find it but paraphrased she said something like “Whenever I am swayed by the left in an argument I examine the proposal and see that it ultimately is designed to increase dependence and reduce the self-reliance of the individual.” That’s nowhere near the actual words, but the idea is a very good one. Cuts through the B.S. very well in most cases.


8 posted on 06/15/2007 8:51:22 AM PDT by Greg F (<><)
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To: Chuckmorse

Another nail in society’s coffin.


9 posted on 06/15/2007 8:52:35 AM PDT by bannie
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To: Chuckmorse

If anyone would like historical documentation of the ideas expressed in this article I would strongly recommend the book by E. Michael Jones, LIBIDO DOMINANDI: Sexual Liberation and Political Control.


10 posted on 06/15/2007 8:56:58 AM PDT by Madam Theophilus
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To: bannie

WRKO has a Liberal host on today who is arguing that the Church is violating Separation of Church and State by getting involved in the Marriage argument. It’s been a Sacrament for almost 2,000 years! The State is usurping Doctrine from the church. This is how the gays won. They got the State to buy into the notion that Marriage is between a Tax Levying Entity and its Subjects.


11 posted on 06/15/2007 9:01:13 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: The Pack Knight; Chuckmorse; Brad Cloven; alloysteel; HaveHadEnough; Madam Theophilus
You boys might want to cast your eyes on this here:

http://www.newtotalitarians.com/PsychicIronCagePartII.html


12 posted on 06/15/2007 9:03:16 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("I like to legislate. I feel I've done a lot of good." Sen. Robert Byrd)
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To: bannie

What were the following things?

Milk Price Fixing
The Numbers Racket
Booze distribution

They were all rackets once run by organized crime

Now what are they?

The New England Dairy Council
The Lottery
Licensed Liquor Establishments

The Government took them over by changing the meaning of the words.

Now they are taking Marriage from the Church.


13 posted on 06/15/2007 9:04:59 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: HaveHadEnough
I just don't see how letting other people who generally do not have kids get married ruins it for married people and their children.

I'm agreed. How does the availability of a sanctioned couples relationship (call it domestic partnership, civil union, or gay marriage, it's all pretty much the same thing) tempt heterosexual young people to not find each other attractive, marry each other, and then procreate?

I can understand where legalizing marijuana might make it acceptable to try it, but what law changes would make a straight guy find another guy sexually attractive?

14 posted on 06/15/2007 9:12:43 AM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: Chuckmorse
Gay Marriage is a Socialist experiment

Too kind.

15 posted on 06/15/2007 9:13:36 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: massgopguy
Now they are taking Marriage from the Church.

Ever since the government started registering marriages, then handing out benefits based on it, the church has had it taken away.

16 posted on 06/15/2007 9:14:29 AM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: hunter112
How does the availability of a sanctioned couples relationship (call it domestic partnership, civil union, or gay marriage, it's all pretty much the same thing) tempt heterosexual young people to not find each other attractive, marry each other, and then procreate?

Empirically, look at what has happened in Europe, where homosexual marriage has been closely followed by a drastic decline in the heterosexual marriage rate.

17 posted on 06/15/2007 9:20:20 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion
Empirically, look at what has happened in Europe, where homosexual marriage has been closely followed by a drastic decline in the heterosexual marriage rate.

Have marriage rates gone down even in those states that have not legalized gay marriage? Has the marriage rate gone down in the US, when gay marriage has not been legal?
18 posted on 06/15/2007 9:31:40 AM PDT by HaveHadEnough
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To: Campion
As anybody knows, correlation does not imply causation. In both the US and Europe, long before even Vermont civil unions, marriage has been disintegrating. I'm much more inclined to blame it on feminism, birth control, easy divorce laws, welfare, and the media, than to attribute a decline in heterosexual marriage rate to the availability of homosexual marriage.

Do you really think that Europeans who married a same-sex partner would have instead married an opposite sex partner, if the option were not available? I'd like to think that closeted homosexuals would NOT inflict themselves on an innocent straight person in an effort to 'treat' themselves. The story of Dina Matos McGreevey should NOT be relived by anybody else.

19 posted on 06/15/2007 9:33:45 AM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: ExcursionGuy84

You are wasting your pixels. This poster just sprays his grafitti and moves on to the next pillar. He can’t be bothered responding to comments.


20 posted on 06/15/2007 9:57:55 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: Chuckmorse

I learn a while ag ther eare 2 kinds of marxists. The first is the outright communist, fervent and outspoken in their idiotic belief. The second is the evolutionary marxist. These are the ones who believe that small incrimental steps will bring about their utopia. The second is what we have in the majority of our government.


21 posted on 06/15/2007 10:09:10 AM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: Chuckmorse

Government should get out of the marriage business entirely. In Texas, we have common law marriage. That should work for everyone. Why does anyone need a stinking piece of paper from the state? Just draw up a marriage contract. That the government would try to get involved is indeed communistic. Freedom to marry is a God given right.


22 posted on 06/15/2007 10:17:39 AM PDT by Eternal_Bear
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To: hunter112; HaveHadEnough

“I just don’t see how letting other people who generally do not have kids get married ruins it for married people and their children.”

Their children would be (and are in Massachusetts) taught that these relationships are normal, and that children don’t necessarily need both a mother and a father. The advent of easy divorce (instituted, in part, by feminists in the 1970s bent on destroying “the patriarchy”) has gotten us used to depriving children of either fathers or mothers. I believe this is part of the reason why younger people find gay marriage so reasonable. They have only known marriage within the context of no-fault divorce. Many of them have been deprived of full-time mothers and/or fathers.
I have worked in inner-city schools. Boys especially need fathers. If feminists want to see one example of an area devoid of traditional marriage, look no further than the inner city. There is, of course, a lot of poverty there as well, but the breakdown of traditional families ensures continued poverty.
Children are being relegated to an after-thought by the sexual revolution, and I refer to the whole thing - sex outside of marriage, co-habitation, easy access to abortion, no-fault divorce and now gay marriage. This does not bode well for the future. When a child has two mommies, there is an underlying message that the father did not care to become involved in the child’s life.


23 posted on 06/15/2007 11:45:44 AM PDT by beejaa (HY)
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To: HaveHadEnough

“Have marriage rates gone down even in those states that have not legalized gay marriage? Has the marriage rate gone down in the US, when gay marriage has not been legal?”

I don’t know the answer, but your question is beside the point. Do we value traditional marriage or not? Do we wrap society around maximizing freedom of choice or do we continue with some restraints in the interests of society as a whole? Those who wish to maximize freedom of choice do not appear to understand the necessity of social restraints and norms.
Liberals have been attacking traditional marriage for some 40 years, and the attacks are working. I do not think that sexual anarchy is a good thing. The most aggressive predators gain the most from such situations. We need restraints in order to protect weaker individuals like children and poor young women. (Love ‘em and leave ‘em to care for the child for the next 18 years.)


24 posted on 06/15/2007 11:59:54 AM PDT by beejaa (HY)
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To: beejaa
When a child has two mommies, there is an underlying message that the father did not care to become involved in the child’s life.

You could make the same statement about a child with one mommy. Or, perhaps you could take the point of view that perhaps Daddy did care, but the court system shut him out of the child's life. We have support enforcement, but we do not have equivalent 'visitation enforcement' to assure that dads who pay get to see their kids.

Besides, whether gay marriage, civil unions, or domestic partnerships are sanctioned by a state or not, there is nothing to stop a pair of lesbians with a male friend and a turkey baster. The observations you make about these fatherless children will continue to be made. Why not have a system that at least makes two people (if the non-biological parent so desires) financially responsible for the life they decided to bring into the world?

25 posted on 06/15/2007 12:24:19 PM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: beejaa
Do we value traditional marriage or not? Do we wrap society around maximizing freedom of choice or do we continue with some restraints in the interests of society as a whole?

Is "traditional marriage" where a woman was not enabled to get herself a job to leave an abusive spouse, only to be branded a "divorcee" (and be suspect the rest of her life) worth returning to?

Even if the answer is yes, how do we put that toothpaste back into the tube?

And why should homosexual people, not being part of the problem of drive-thru marriage, serial monogamy, no-fault divorce, or child abandonment, be made to wait longer at the gates, because the heterosexuals screwed up matrimony?

26 posted on 06/15/2007 12:28:57 PM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: Chuckmorse
It's now open season on Massachusetts gov't school inmates.

The children will be exposed to the most vile "homo ed" imaginable, and parents will be unable to stop it.

27 posted on 06/15/2007 12:30:20 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: hunter112
How does the availability of a sanctioned couples relationship (call it domestic partnership, civil union, or gay marriage, it's all pretty much the same thing) tempt heterosexual young people to not find each other attractive, marry each other, and then procreate?

They're going after the kids.

There have already been incidents of "fisting ed" in MA gov't schools. Now that "homosexual marriage" (i.e., sodomy) is a recognized legal institution, hell's the limit.

28 posted on 06/15/2007 12:32:49 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: hunter112
And why should homosexual people, not being part of the problem of drive-thru marriage, serial monogamy, no-fault divorce, or child abandonment, be made to wait longer at the gates, because the heterosexuals screwed up matrimony?

LOL! Because "homosexual marriage" is a meaningless term. What does it mean?

Marriage is a lifelong commitment between a man and woman for the purpose of begetting and raising children and the mutual care of the spouses.

Two men committed to sodomizing each other on a regular basis doesn't constitute a marriage.

29 posted on 06/15/2007 12:39:38 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Aquinasfan
There have already been incidents of "fisting ed" in MA gov't schools.

Nobody supports teaching fringe sexual practices in school, nobody with a brain, anyway. That goes for stuff that's done by straight people, too. Excesses of all kinds in the government schools needs to be stopped, whatever the nature of it.

But, what does that have to do with the government regulating the genders of who it distributes benefits to?

30 posted on 06/15/2007 1:07:31 PM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: Aquinasfan
Because "homosexual marriage" is a meaningless term. What does it mean?

It means that two people of the same sex get the same deal that two people of opposite sexes can get in regards to taxes, employment benefits, visitation rights, etc.

Marriage is a lifelong commitment between a man and woman for the purpose of begetting and raising children and the mutual care of the spouses.

I've had a vasectomy, and my lady is post-menopausal. If and when we get married, we're going to be no more "productive" than that couple of gay guys down the street that you're worried about.

31 posted on 06/15/2007 1:10:29 PM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: Chuckmorse
Homosexual Agenda: Categorical Index of Links (Revision 1.1)
32 posted on 06/15/2007 1:21:08 PM PDT by paltz
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To: gcruse

Me? Or Chuck Morse? Cause I don’t want to come across as a pot-stirrer (on Free Republic) or be seen as a troll.


33 posted on 06/15/2007 2:07:40 PM PDT by ExcursionGuy84 ("Jesus, Your Love takes my breath away.")
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To: ExcursionGuy84

Check Chuck’s ‘in forum’ page, and you’ll see what I mean.


34 posted on 06/15/2007 2:11:35 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: hunter112

“When a child has two mommies, there is an underlying message that the father did not care to become involved in the child’s life.”

“You could make the same statement about a child with one mommy...”
“And why should homosexual people, not being part of the problem of drive-thru marriage, serial monogamy, no-fault divorce, or child abandonment, be made to wait longer at the gates, because the heterosexuals screwed up matrimony?”

You’re making the assumption that one type of marriage is as good as another. People with your views ensure that we will continue to conduct yet another social experiment on ourselves, since gay marriage has never existed until recently and we have no idea what the long-term ramifications will be. How will these children fare as adults? Wait another 30 years, the same way we did with no-fault divorce. It takes time for the results of these experiments to become apparent. The reason why the sky has not fallen in Mass. over same-sex marriage is because the children are only a few years older, not 20 or 30 years older. Gradual social erosion is much more common than drastic change.

It amazes me that some people think that it is a matter of high principle to set up marriage so that children can be deliberately deprived of a mother or father. Left-wing people continue to attack traditional marriage, and when they see the results of their attacks, the erosion of traditional marriage, they point to that as a reason to procede with gay marriage.

A lot of us here sense that all of this is leading us to a bad place. We’re already paying a price for past social experiments and you favor enacting more of them.


35 posted on 06/16/2007 7:55:14 AM PDT by beejaa (HY)
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To: Chuckmorse
One time, I happened to stumble across another forum. I have no clue what the name of it is. Three was a thread debating gay marriage. Only one person was opposed, and the gay members and liberals of the board were of course calling him intolerant and what not. Anyway, he posted this series of links with snips from the links showing the relation between socialism and communism and promotion of the homosexual agenda. I saved and will post these:

Democratic rights and the struggle for socialism

We defend the unrestricted right of women to abortion on demand and uphold the right of gay people to marry . . .SOCIALIST EQUALITY PARTY

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/ap...stat-a28.shtml

Full Equality and Liberation

Capitalism divides the working class, based on sexual, racial and national distinctions. Black liberation, women’s liberation and lesbian and gay liberation are essential to socialist revolution and impossible without it. We fight for real social, economic and political equality for women and for an end to discrimination against lesbians and gays.

INTERNATIONAL SOCIALIST ORGANIZATION http://www.internationalsocialist.or...ewestand.shtml

THE STRUGGLE FOR GAY AND LESBIAN RIGHTS!

Gay marriage

Why should gays and lesbians not have the same rights as heterosexuals?

Behind the attack on gay marriage

Socialist Worker looks at the roots of the right wing’s offensive

We won’t accept any "separate but equal" compromises Birth of a new movement for civil rights

THE SOCIALISTS WORKER! http://www.socialistworker.org/Featured/GayRights.shtml

DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM - LESBIAN and GAY LIBERATION

1. Educating Children in our schools on lesbian and gay concerns and on the equal validity of same sex and opposite sex attractions; let the cycle of homophobia be broken with this generation.

SOCIALIST PARTY USA http://sp-usa.org/literature/lesbiangay-flyer.pdf

FREEDOM SOCIALIST PARTY - RADICAL WOMEN!!

This trailblazing socialist feminist organization is the revolutionary wing of the women's movement and a strong feminist voice within the Left. Immersed in the daily fight against racism, sexism, homophobia, and labor exploitation, Radical Women views women's leadership as decisive to world revolution . . . vast ranks of militant women from the working class, especially women of color and lesbians.

http://www.socialism.com/

Socialist Party Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender group

Thousands of people took to the streets last Saturday for London's gay Pride. The Socialist Party Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) Group and the youth group International Socialist Resistance (ISR) marched on the parade and distributed leaflets that were part of a joint campaign against homophobic bullying.

SOCIALISTS FOR PRIDE http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/200...tml?id=np8.htm

Communist Party of Canada

"Another important advance over the last year has been the movement for marriage rights and other forms oflegal recognition for same-sex couples. Once again we condemn Parliament's definition of marriage as "a union between a man and a woman."

http://www.communist-party.ca/news/...1/equalnjus.htm

The false debate on gay marriage:

Personal emancipation impossible under capitalism "Many radicals, and even some self-described Marxists, have been at the forefront of the movement advocating for the legal recognition of same-sex marriage."

http://www.internationalism.org/inte...y_marriage.htm

Midwest Socialist Conference

Resisting US Empire!! Separate is not equal—the fight for gay marriage

http://www.campusactivism.org/displayevent-395.htm

Lesbian Socialist Journalist Deserves Her Bias

In an August 20 essay appearing in the Sioux City Journal, syndicated columnist Bonnie Erbe discusses the unfolding story of a journalist who had been stripped of her writing duties because she campaigns for lesbian and gay rights in her off-time and is a registered member of the Freedom Socialist Party.

http://www.glaad.org/publications/ar...il.php?id=2353

Making marriage laws indifferent as to gender.

• Repealing all censorship laws.

• Defending the rights of gay and lesbian refugees and couples in immigration and removing HIV from the health test for visas.

• Defending and extending gay and lesbian programs on national and community broadcasting.

• Funding for lesbian and gay community-based information and education programs.

DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS AGENDA AND POLICY http://www.dsp.org.au/ds/lesgay.htm

EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT ANARCY

"The women's movement also illustrates another promising development the tendency to organise in small groups and collectives. Other movements, such as parts of the gay movement, claimants unions, squatters, self-help health groups, and so oil, are good for the same reason."

http://www.totse.com/en/politics/ana...g_anarchy.html

MARXISTS CRITIQUE - SOCIALISM AND THE POLITICS OF GAYS AND LESBIANS

"Gay and lesbian liberation must become more thoroughly, militantly, and sophisticatedly radical in order to enable gays and lesbians to struggle successfully against heterosexism and homophobia. Gay and lesbian liberation must fight against the forces which oppress gays and lesbians by pushing forward what gay and lesbian liberation uniquely has to offer towards the progressive development . . . emergence of proto-communist modes of sexual community and culture."

http://www.etext.org/Politics/Altern...v1n5_msp5.html

Socialist Party of the USA - Educate Children on Lesbian and Gay

"1. Educating Children in our schools on lesbian and gay concerns and on the equal validity of same sex and opposite sex attractions; let the cycle of homophobia be broken with this generation.

2. Supporting and defending our gay and lesbian youth.

DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM - GAY AND LESBIAN LIBERATION! http://sp-usa.org/literature/lesbiangay-flyer.pdf

Socialists rally behind gay marriage

PARIS, May 11 (AFP) - France's opposition Socialists, spurred on by their allies in the Greens party - one of whom plans to celebrate France's first gay marriage next month - on Tuesday urged the French to back homosexual marriage.

Socialist party leader Francois Hollande told AFP he would ask his party to file a draft law that would put civil marriage on France's statute books, no matter what the gender of the two people asking to be married.

"Every society should be organised on the principle of equal rights and respect. As a result, marriage should be open to everybody," Hollande said.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site...8&story_id=7488

Gay pride: Moving forward, remembering the past

"There are many things that can divide the movements – homophobia, anti-communism, racism and male supremacy, just to name a few.

http://www.pww.org/article/view/1454/1/94/

Honor for Gay Rights Activist

Advisory Council for the City Center wants an Ulrichs-Square

After a history lesson, the representatives of several political parties (christian democrats, socialists, greens, and communists), agreed unanimously to dub a long-time unnamed square in Ostertor near the Café Engel "Ulrichsplatz".

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebra...bremeneng.html

Marxism Against Postmodernism in Educational Theory

"Beyond simply resurrecting a modernist Marxism for the new millennium, the authors thoughtfully incorporate lessons we on the educational Left have learned from feminism, anti-racist theory and struggles, indigenous knowledge, and anti-homophobic theory and struggles, in pursuit of a new radicalism for these times of ultra-exploitation.

http://www.ieps.org.uk.cwc.net/marxreviews.html

Walt Brown (Socialist USA) Volunteer attorney, Consumer Justice Alliance.

Minority Issues: Brown is a member of the NAACP. We strongly support affirmative action, civil rights, and anti-discrimination laws and programs to end institutional racism. We call for the repeal of all sodomy laws and anti-lesbian and gay restrictions, and the legalization of same-sex unions.

http://selectsmart.com/president/Socialist.html

Same-Sex Marriage

Moreover, they hold, marriage has little to do with religion. While they often intersect, they are not dependent in any way. (Refer to the above commentary.) Men and women of no particular faith or god can and do join in marriage. Since marriage is not governed by any religious authority when it comes to “straights,” why shouldn’t it be the same for gays?

http://www.socialistviewpoint.org/j...july_04_27.html

The International Communist League

For the Right of Gay Marriage...and Divorce!

Marriage and the Capitalist State

Workers Vanguard

“Abolition of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

“On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution. “The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.”

—Communist Manifesto (1848)

“The family structure—whether monogamous or polygamous—necessarily oppresses women. As Marxists we understand that the family serves a real social purpose and cannot simply be ‘abolished,’ even in a workers state, but must be replaced with alternate social institutions.”

http://www.icl-fi.org/ENGLISH/2004/GayMarriage-824.html

United action needed to repeal same-sex marriage ban

Pursuing only de facto couples' rights would be a mistake because this means leaving the marriage ban unchallenged. The Marriage Amendment Bill wound back the our rights by deliberately excluding us from the legal and social rights enjoyed by heterosexuals. Ignoring a repeal campaign on the marriage ban would be a travesty. United national action, rallies and forums is what we need to get this bill off the books and win full equality for [lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex] people.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/596/596p9b.htm

PHOENIX ANARCHIST COALITION

There was a call put out for "all Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queers of color, Drag Queens, Sex Radicals, Political Militants, and ALL OTHERS being excluded from "traditional" culture to meet for a peaceful march and demonstration of protest outside of the Presidential Debate." Meet with everyone else at Daley Park at 3pm.

http://www.phoenixanarchist.org/modu...id= &topic=17

International Socialists/Socialist Workers Party

Black liberation, women's liberation and lesbian and gay liberation are essential to socialist revolution and impossible without it.

We fight for real, social, economic and political equality for women and for an end to discrimination against lesbians and gays, and youth. We support the struggles of all oppressed groups against any form of discrimination.

http://www.socialister.dk/english/standist.htm

Keep the Juices Flowing

Sex, and enjoying it, is natural, it's a major part of our lives. When we have consenting sex, with however many partners, male, female, gay, straight or bisexual, why shouldn't it be with passion, pride, excitement and experimentation? If no one is hurt or exploited, if power isn't used over another, then our sex is just that - our own.

It's in the interests of all our class to discuss sex and sexuality, to control our own bodies, and to learn lessons about what's good and what's not. Good medical advice aside, the moralists, politicians and middle classes have no right to hinder us or intefere.

The Spunk Library collects and distributes literature in electronic format, with an emphasis on anarchism and related issues.

http://www.spunk.org/library/sex/sp001711.html

Female Bonding And Lesbian Identity

In this chapter, I will be arguing that lesbian practices in relation both to popular and counter-cinemas in the 1970s and 1980s were produced, primarily, in discourses of lesbian feminism. I shall not be attempting any comprehensive overview of feminist theory and politics, however; nor, to address the broad range of feminist engagements with Marxism.

http://home.clara.net/pgraham/bklst.htm

A Socialist Approach to the Bill of Rights

The constitution of the GDR abolished the concept of illegitimacy, [a key ideological weapon of the ultra-right] and guaranteed homosexual rights long before the modern LGBT rights movement.

http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/94/1/67/

CLASS DIVISIONS IN THE GAY COMMUNITY

At the same time alternatives to Marxism are in crisis. The gay movement, as any sort of radical coherent force, collapsed into the reformism of the Labour left in the 1980s. That has been followed by an even more stark collapse of its ideas. No sooner had identity politics and the tactics of groups like Queer Nation in the US and OutRage! Consequently, Marxism can find a ready audience among gays and lesbians

http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org...j78/morgan.htm

Civil partnership law stalled

Socialists and progressive people should expose the hypocritical nature of those who are say they are widening the legislation when they have no intention of doing so. Workers' Liberty

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/2340

Behind the attack on gay marriage

Socialists are for the full liberation of women and gays. Full sexual freedom is a precondition for genuine human liberation. The fight for gay marriage should be linked to the fight for national health care and abortion rights

http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-...dAttacks.shtml

League for the Revolutionary Party (LRP)

Communist Organization for the Fourth International (COFI)

Defend Gay Marriage The right of gays and lesbians to marry is moving to the front line in the long struggle for gay rights. The increasingly reactionary character of our ruling class, and its mounting defense of conservative social and religious institutions, dictate a showdown.

http://www.lrp-cofi.org/PR/gay_marriagePR70.html

INTERNATIONAL COMMUNIST CURRENT

The false debate on gay marriage: Personal emancipation impossible under capitalism

Many radicals, and even some self-described Marxists, have been at the forefront of the movement advocating for the legal recognition of same-sex marriage.

http://www.internationalism.org/inte...y_marriage.htm

Communist Party of Great Britain

Homosexuals have often been scapegoated or persecuted. They can be portrayed as deviants who threaten the family - the basic economic unit of capitalist society. Homosexual rights is therefore a key demand. Homophobic attitudes divide the working class and aid those advocating the authoritarian state.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/documents/cpgb/prog_demands.html

Permanent Revolution in the U.S. Today

Speeches by Freedom Socialist Party delegates to the Trotskyist and Revolutionary Socialist Conference, San Francisco, November 30-December 1, 1985

Among the topics up for discussion at the conference were the reasons for the degeneration of the SWP; the coming American Revolution and the role of Trotskyists within it; the centrality of feminism and lesbian/gay liberation in our time. The Freedom Socialist Party (FSP)--which left the SWP in part because the SWP refused to place women's emancipation on the level of a first-class . .

Our analysis of gay and lesbian oppression is based upon the Marxist theory expounded by Engels in The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State.

http://socialism.com/library/perm1.html

Untying the Knots: Marriage Equality and the Struggle for Civil Rights As the LGBT movement works for marriage equality, we need to also fight for the rights of immigrant families, and at the same time, need to challenge the use of marriage as a weapon against low-income women and their children. http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/762

Stonewall Democrats Create Black Caucus

The Republicans have often used the LGBT community issues such as "gay marriage" to distract African American voters from the issues that actually matter in their lives.

http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/10/stonewall_democ.php

California NAACP Endorses Same-Sex Marriage Bill

"In a place like California, you can not possibly work for rights if you don't work for gay rights," said Alice A. Huffman, California NAACP president. "You either believe in the rights of everyone or you are in the wrong business."

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Sect...entDisplay.cfm

36 posted on 06/16/2007 10:09:34 AM PDT by Pinkbell (Duncan Hunter for President in 2008)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: beejaa
A lot of us here sense that all of this is leading us to a bad place. We’re already paying a price for past social experiments and you favor enacting more of them.

This toothpaste is already out of the tube, and somebody's still got their finger on it, squeezing even more.

If social conservatives want to remove that finger, and maybe even put some of the toothpaste back in the tube, they have got to come up with arguments that make sense to the mushy middle. Right now, that middle is uncomfortable with the label "gay marriage", and there is an opportunity there.

Those favoring alternative marriage arrangements are pounding that mushy middle with images of successful same-sex-parent families. Those opposing alternatives are just crowing on and on about how "marriage is being destroyed". I don't see any impediment to heterosexual young people finding each other, marrying, and starting families. They don't feel that letting the homosexual couple down the street marry, or civil unionize, or domestically partner is taking any rights or options away from them.

Poll after poll shows that they're the group that is most amenable to these alternative arrangements, even though many of them are products of broken heterosexual marriages. When the people who are the most adversely affected by social experiments of the past are relatively unopposed to further social experiments, then its only a matter of time before the finger squeezes out all of that toothpaste.

Their generation has grown up knowing homosexual people, and not just from television. Come up with a reason that convinces them that marriage is just for heterosexual people, and you'll win this battle.

37 posted on 06/18/2007 8:55:55 AM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

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