FairTax bus on the road in Iowa!

Americans Fo Fair Taxation ^ | August 2, 2007

[lucysmom]

Try clicking on the link provided. That may help.

Your link claims, for instance, that it makes sense to tax government because government is now taxed for its employees through withholding and payroll taxes and must pay contractors a sufficent amount to cover payroll taxes for their employees and withholding. The pdf says that to leave government untaxed gives it an unfair advantage over private enterprise.

It seems that government, under the FairTax, is treated as an end user (private consumer taxpayer) rather than as a business. Assuming that government employees too, will get their entire paycheck without taxes deducted, that would put government expense where it is now - in other words it would still be paying the same amount for its employees; however, if government is required to pay an additional 30% FairTax for each employee (something private business or nonprofits are not required to do), it is paying almost a third more under the FairTax than it is now.

While I may not be fond of government, I do recognize that government generates income through taxes, and people pay taxes. FairTax on government is like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

[lucysmom]

Never mind that their calculations were flawed, they proceeded to announce that government was as large as 87% of retail sales in the USA.

If you read the tax panel's report you would know that they made calculations based on several different scenarios; the one you reference assumes that purchases now generally exempt from sales taxes would also be exempt under the FairTax.

BTW, why did Florida give up its plan to implement a sales tax on services? Do you think an attempt to implement the FairTax would raise the same issues? What is the FairTaxers plan to address those issues?

[lewislynn]

however, if government is required to pay an additional 30% FairTax for each employee (something private business or nonprofits are not required to do), it is paying almost a third more under the FairTax than it is now.

Uh huh, and sometimes their response is:
"The government is just paying it to themselves...
Yes, but they can't pay anything, not even to themselves untill they collect it.

[lewislynn]

Get the right Pub’s in place and give em the majority and we could get this done.

I think a lot of us thought we gave "the right Pubs" the majority. Then the majority said they needed a "Pub" President to get the job(s) done. Apparently we were lied to...from the top down.

[Bigun]

FairTax on government is like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Is that so?

Have you not seen this graphic?

Government Growth:
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/piechart.htm

 

Relative Shares of Economy
pre-1930	post WWII (1947)	TODAY (2004)

 

---

Do you doubt, even for a moment, it's validity?

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain the trend shown here, which by the way has entirely taken place after the current income tax system became firmly entrenched, if it is not in your opinion attributable to the government voting itself advantages over the private sector.

Government consumption is included in the FairTax base in order to put personal and government consumption expenditures on an equal footing. Government consumption expenditures currently include payroll taxes paid by government and income taxes and payroll taxes paid by its employees with respect to government wages. They also reflect payroll and income taxes paid in the course of producing consumption goods bought by government from private-sector firms. The intent of the FairTax is to substitute a sales tax for all of these taxes. Failing to tax government consumption, while taxing only private consumption, would make government consumption expenditures artificially cheap in comparison to private consumption expenditures, and could cause the provision of some goods and services to migrate from the private sector to the government sector. Activities such as trash collection and transportation services are taxed under the FairTax, whether provided by government or the private sector.

[lewislynn]

Activities such as trash collection and transportation services are taxed under the FairTax, whether provided by government or the private sector.

Nice try but those are government enterprises not government consumption.

If taxing government consumption is a revenue producer we should double the rate and tax only government consumption.

And Lucysmom was right on with:

Assuming that government employees too, will get their entire paycheck without taxes deducted, that would put government expense where it is now - in other words it would still be paying the same amount for its employees; however, if government is required to pay an additional 30% FairTax for each employee (something private business or nonprofits are not required to do), it is paying almost a third more under the FairTax than it is now"

And they pay more means we pay more...30% more.

[xcamel]

What does it mean to "fully fund" the government?

"...continued taxation in any form that maintains the 400% bloat rate of the fed as it exists currently."

[Bigun]

Nice try but those are government enterprises...

Yes indeed Lewis! They ARE government enterprises but have they always been such? SHOULD they, and hundreds of other formerly private sector enterprises be such?

I don't think so but you have made my point for me and I thank you for it.

When the playing field is leveled maybe, just maybe we will see the size and scope of government begin to shrink. Wouldn't THAT be something?

[Bigun]

BTW, Kotlikoff (mentioned in your linked pdf) now says the rate for 2007 is 23.8% inclusive, or 31.2% exclusive.

In case I haven't told you this before, this is NOT about rates in my view it is a about FREEDOM!

The income tax is the governments primary tool for social engineering (it comes directly out of the communist manifesto) and needs to be put onto the ash heap of history ASAP if we are to preserve anything of this great republic for our posterity.

[xcamel]

Indeed... Mexico has the ‘fairtax’ in place (NRST)..

If it’s so great, whay are they all coming here...

[lewislynn]

I don't think so but you have made my point for me and I thank you for it.

You're welcome?...What WAS your point exactly?
The Fairtax would defund the government?...The Fairtax would eliminate government enterprises?... The income tax created government interprises?...Think of anything you don't like, the Fairtax will fix it?...The Fairtax is the second coming?

[lewislynn]

Indeed... Mexico has the ‘fairtax’ in place (NRST)..

If it’s so great, whay are they all coming here...

To escape all that free enterprise and have more government control over their lives with the communist/marxist income tax? < /sarcasm >

[lewislynn]

The income tax is the governments primary tool for social engineering (it comes directly out of the communist manifesto) and needs to be put onto the ash heap of history ASAP if we are to preserve anything of this great republic for our posterity.

Right, and the Fairtax is carved in stone. It would be passed exactly as written never to be altered or amended and we'll all live in total freedom happily ever after with government checks every month to remind us of who works for us.

[lucysmom]

Have you not seen this graphic?

The Heritage Foundation puts government consumption at 36.4%.

Government consumption is included in the FairTax base in order to put personal and government consumption expenditures on an equal footing.

Government consumption and personal consumption are not the same. How many high tech tanks and rocket launchers are purchased annually for private use?

[lucysmom]

Bigun: Activities such as trash collection and transportation services are taxed under the FairTax, whether provided by government or the private sector.

Lewislynn: Nice try but those are government enterprises not government consumption.

In addition, those enterprises are not federal, they're local, subject to local control and local pricing. If an advantage exists, it is that to be successful, they don't have to make a profit for owners and shareholders, just break even. In a sense, residents ARE the shareholders and owners.

If those government enterprises are required to pay a tax where the private sector is not, then the tax does not equalize anything, but is punitive. It robs communities of the freedom to choose how and who delivers those services by pricing local governments out of the market.

[lucysmom]

The income tax is the governments primary tool for social engineering (it comes directly out of the communist manifesto) and needs to be put onto the ash heap of history ASAP if we are to preserve anything of this great republic for our posterity.

The thing is, government can not, not do social engineering. I am surprised you don't see the social engineering component of a 30% tax on just about everything with a prebate at the beginning of every month.

Ask Hostage about his social engineering vision for the FairTax - its stunning!

[Jacquerie]

With the demise of the income and capital taxes I suspect that the Fair Tax would usher in an era similar to our growth in the 19th century when we went from a nothing agricultural backwater to an emerging world power.

Also, and as you demonstrate, what constitutes revenue neutrality varies from 23% to 50%. Unlike today’s immoral, progressive income tax, the ultimate fair tax rate will be determined by what the people will accept and not what pols think they can impose on the high income earners.

From a big picture standpoint, if we had the Fair Tax these past 90 years and someone proposed a progressive, Byzantine system of income and capital taxation, it wouldn't have a chance.

[Bigun]

The Fairtax is the second coming?

No Lewis it isn't but it is FAR superior to the communist inspired mess we currently suffer and is much more in keeping with what our founders envisioned!

[lucysmom]

Also, and as you demonstrate, what constitutes revenue neutrality varies from 23% to 50%. Unlike today’s immoral, progressive income tax, the ultimate fair tax rate will be determined by what the people will accept and not what pols think they can impose on the high income earners.

Perhaps you underestimate the creativity of taxpayers to find ways to avoid paying the FairTax, and politicians to find ways to raise and collect taxes.

[Bigun]

If those government enterprises are required to pay a tax where the private sector is not...

Now pray tell just who is proposing that? Certainly NOT any FairTax proponent that I am aware of.

It robs communities of the freedom to choose how and who delivers those services by pricing local governments out of the market.

LOL! What has happened over the last century or so is the EXACT opposite! Government, at all levels, votes itself all manner of advantages over private sector concerns and has taken over an ever increasing segment of the economy as a result.

Why is the government in the insurance business competing with private sector companies and ONLY able to do so because they MANDATE a citizen's participation AND operate under rules that would have a private concern shut down and the proprietors thrown in jail if they tried to operate under the exact same model as the government?

Not so many years ago when Johnny left home to go to college he had to arrange for meals and lodging provided by some local PRIVATE concern in the college town. If that is the case today anywhere I would appreciate knowing where.

I could go on and on with this but it is obvious to anyone who looks. WE should NOT perpetuate this situation further.