Posted on 08/18/2007 4:06:09 AM PDT by Kaslin
What about the Green State Strategy? That is, who will offer her the most money for the VP slot?
Wrong. I am not against compromise, but there are certain issues/principles that can't be compromised. Everything is not negotiable, e.g., the future of this country. You sound like the "Better Red than dead" crowd during the 60s.
When you point to those dems who didn't vote for cloture, you don't realize that they are holding out for something before they compromise. Or, why the United Farm Workers would support the bill, and the AFL-CIO would oppose it.
Au contraire. I am involved in a grassroots immigration group that goes up to the Hill often about this issue and others related to it. I follow the issue very closely. What I do understand is how this issue cuts across partisan lines in terms of the public. My group contains dems, reps, inds, blacks, whites, and hispanics.
Very simply put, the dems are in the driver's seat. And the pivot point of the compromise shifts a little to the left every time the issue comes before the Senate.
The dems are definitely the ones pushing the issue behind the scenes. They just don't want to appear to be doing that publicly. They realize that many of their constituents don't agree with their position on immigration issues. It is a potentially losing and divisive issue for them. They want and need the WH/Rep cover.
This is because the GOP is split. And immigration is not the only issue on which the GOP is split.
Immigration splits the Dems even more. The rank and file Dems, except for Hispanics, agree with the majority of the American public on this issue. Why do you think in this Sunday's ABC Dem debate that there was not one question about immigration? The Dems are very afraid of the issue and Georgie boy knows that, which is why he took the line of questioning he did.
Grassroots organizations are springing up all over the country as the problem metastasizes outside of the border states. Oklahoma and Georgia have passed sweeping legislation dealing with illegal aliens. Local communities like Herndon, Manassas, Prince William County, VA, Hazelton, etc. are addressing the problem as well. Many of the states have passed propositions declaring English as the official state language, including AZ in 2006. Immigration is the elephant in the room and it is growing larger and larger. Today, one in eight residents of America is foreign born [including my wife and daughter] and in several years that number will be one in seven, the highest it has ever been in our history.
If you followed the debate as it was broadcast on C-Span, what were Dorgan and Saunders [sic] saying? What else do they want before they allow immigration reform to go forward?
I followed the debate very closely. Taped it and watched it all. Dorgan voted against the 2006 bill. He doesn't want any kind of guest worker program. Sanders is a socialist who is concerned about current workers pay and benefits. He understands how an endless supply of cheap, exploitable labor depresses wages and gives business more "evil" profits. My two senators, Webb and Warner, would like to vote for comprehensive immigration reform but they were overwhelmed by the size and volume of public opposition.
The Dems aided by Specter et. al. are getting ready this September to put forward another bill and/or do it on a piecemeal basis. They have invested so much into this effort politically that they must come up with something before the 2008 election, just as they did in October 2006 with the Fence bill, which passed the Senate 80-19 with even Hillary voting for it. As was the case in 2006, the politicians want the issue to be neutered by passing some phony legislation that won't be implemented and hide behind the WH, which most of the Dems did by saying that they supported the WH/McCain position.
If Bill Gates were to sit down at the table with the Communications Workers of America and make a deal, would he get his 200,000 H1B visas?
If he bought off the union leadership the same way that the corporations buy off Congress, both parties, thru contributions, yes he would get them.
We already have many guest worker programs in the form of various visas such as H1B, H2B, TN Nafta Work visa, L-1 Intra-company Transfer Work visa, Nurse Work visa, O-1 Visa, P Visa, R-1 visa, etc. We have millions of people working here as guest workers under those programs.
We don't need to increase the number of the current one-million legal immigrants we take in annually. We do need to change the existing immigration laws that are not serving us well as a nation. We are taking in more legal immigrants than ever before, just not the ones we need to provide us with the skills and talents required to keep us competitive in the global economy. We don't need to import high school dropouts from Latin America to keep our economy going.
And we are witnessing one of the greatest mass migrations in history, which has changed the demographics and culture of this country in less than 40 years. In 1950, Hispanics comprised 1 percent of the population. Today they are about 15% and by 2050 will be 24.4% per Bureau of the Census projections. What is going on is unprecedented. Little did anyone know that when the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 was passed, the demographics would be so significantly affected. Teddy Kennedy said on the effects of the act in 1965, "...our cities will not be flooded with a million immigrants annually.... Secondly, the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset...." The act's supporters not only claimed the law would not change America's ethnic makeup, but that such a change was not desirable.
Oh, how wrong they were. We are not only taking in 1 million legal immigrants a year [60% from Latin America,] up from 178,000 a year prior to the Act, but the ethnic composition of the US has changed dramatically and will continue to do so at warp speed. The additional 500,000 to 1 million illegal aliens, mostly from Latin America add to this flood of immigrants. In 1965 when the Act was passed, the United States was overwhelmingly composed of whites of European descent (89% in 1965), with the only minority group of significant size being blacks (10%). By 2050 non-hispanic whites will be 50% and declining fast. It is not politically correct to state what is happening in this regard, but the real question is can America retain its national identity and culture or will we become Balkanized along linguistic and cultural lines? Demography is destiny.
You rely on the antiquated "public opinion" position on immigration and fail to comprehend the modern immigration issue between the dems and the GOP which is, simply, "permanent visas versus temporary visas"
You, like many others, also have an antiquated view of immigration. As the world continues to shrink, and mobility increases, citizenship becomes more of a mental state rather than a physical state. Mexico is not giving all these immigrants to the US, they are merely "loaning" them.
LOL. Ditto.
You rely on the antiquated "public opinion" position on immigration and fail to comprehend the modern immigration issue between the dems and the GOP which is, simply, "permanent visas versus temporary visas"
You fail to understand how widespread this issue has become across the country. There are close to 2000 legislative initiatives that have sprung up in states and local communities throughout the land. Accompanying those initiatives have been grassroots organizations that transcend party and racial lines [I belong to one of them] who are becoming bigger and more active. It is the political elite who are just beginning to learn that "antiquated" public opinion is becoming a major force in this discussion and that those who ignore it do so at their own peril. It boils down to whom do you believe, the politicians or your own lyin' eyes?
As someone who has actually issued visas, I don't buy your simplistic distinction that this is an issue of permanent versus temporary visas. It has to do with sovereignty and national identity. Can we control who comes into this country and how? People are not widgets or units of labor. As Germany and many other countries have learned, you don't bring in "guest workers" and expect them to leave when the need no longer exists.
You, like many others, also have an antiquated view of immigration. As the world continues to shrink, and mobility increases, citizenship becomes more of a mental state rather than a physical state.
LOL. First, I have lived 25 years of my adult life abroad in 9 different countries. My wife is an immigrant. Your idealized version of a "shrinking" world where "citizenship becomes more of a mental state rather than a physical state" is pure hogwash. The nation state still exists and is thriving, i.e., the numbers continue to grow. Citizenship still means something in very practical terms whether it is voting, paying taxes, or being eligible for the draft. And there are political institutions, values, and culture that also matter in order to have a civil society. You can't have significant portions of the populace not part of a sense of shared endeavor and be successful as a nation.
Mexico is not giving all these immigrants to the US, they are merely "loaning" them
That statement is a keeper. Mexico isn't giving us anything. The fact that there are almost 11 million Mexican born residents of the US speaks of a failed country that cannot provide for its own people who are fleeing corruption and hopelessness. The fact that we have unscruplous businesses willing to exploit cheap, plentiful labor subsidized by the taxpayer regardless of the long term consequences to this nation is reprehensible.
"No other First World country has such an extensive land frontier with a Third World country. The significance of the long Mexican-U.S. border is enhanced by the economic differences between the two countries. “The income gap between the United States and Mexico,” Stanford University historian David Kennedy has pointed out, “is the largest between any two contiguous countries in the world.” Contiguity enables Mexican immigrants to remain in intimate contact with their families, friends, and home localities in Mexico as no other immigrants have been able to do."
As for the perm/temp visa, look to test vote in 2005. In that vote it was determined that 40 dems and 13 pubs would support a new guest worker program and amnesty onto the path for the illegals(McCain-Kennedy), while an additional 22 pubs would support the new guest workers and amnesty to guest worker for the illegals(Bush Plan).
With 13 plus 22 = 35 pubs supporting some form of comprehensive reform, it follows, that at any given time, the numbers could be massaged enough to get the required pub votes, depending on how many perm and temp. Which is exactly what happened with S 2611. There were not enough votes for cloture on McCain Kennedy, but if they massaged the numbers into Hagel-Martinez, 10 pubs woulds abandon Bush to support Hagel Martinez. In fact, Bush had to reluctantly abandon the Bush Plan.
Of course, now that the dems control Congress it is a different equation and if the dems can take the presidency next year, it will be another new equation.
What is happening today is historically unprecedented. It exceeds the Great Wave of immigration in 1910. The big change came in 1965 with the passage of the The 1965 Immigration Act: Anatomy of a Disaster . Prior to the act, the United States was overwhelmingly composed of whites of European descent (89% in 1965), with the only minority group of significant size being blacks (10%). Hispanics were about 1% of the population, By 2050, non-Hispanic whites will be 50% of the population and falling fast. Today, half of the children ages 0-5 are minorities. This massive demographic change in less than 100 years is the result of legal immigration policies and porous borders. What is of particular concern is that Hispanics and blacks have the highest high school dropout rates by far. The social pathology of what is happening is disturbing. We are creating a permanent underclass and the gap between rich and poor is growing as wages are depressed at the lower end of the wage scale by this influx of cheap, exploitable labor.
With 13 plus 22 = 35 pubs supporting some form of comprehensive reform, it follows, that at any given time, the numbers could be massaged enough to get the required pub votes, depending on how many perm and temp. Which is exactly what happened with S 2611. There were not enough votes for cloture on McCain Kennedy, but if they massaged the numbers into Hagel-Martinez, 10 pubs woulds abandon Bush to support Hagel Martinez. In fact, Bush had to reluctantly abandon the Bush Plan.
This issue transcends partisan politics. The political and corporate elite are out of touch with the American people. Each day the problem grows and metastasizes. It isn't going away. An economic downturn or a 9/11 type attack will exacerbate the problem. One in 8 residents of the US is foreign born, the highest in more than 80 years, and that will increase to one in 7 in the next few years, the highest in history. We are heading into uncharted territory.
We need to change our existing legal immigration policies including eliminating extended chain migration beyond the nuclear family, abolishing the visa lottery program that brings in 50,000 immigrants a year who can then sponsor more, revise the laws on birthright citizenship [anchor babies], and go to a merit based immigration system that brings in the talents and skills we need to be competitive in the global market.
Of course, now that the dems control Congress it is a different equation and if the dems can take the presidency next year, it will be another new equation.
If the Dems control the WH, it will be interesting to see what their policy will be. They won't have the cover of a Rep WH and will be held accountable for whatever is passed. If they legalize the status of the 12-20 million illegals already here giving them the ability to sponsor even more legal immigrants under chain migration, this country will be innundated within a decade. The political and social consequences will be immense threatening the future of this country as we know it. Immigration and out of control entitlement programs are the two biggest threats to this nation and they are related.
There will still be a significant level of border enforcement and as we saw this past year, there are some cracks showing up on interior enforcement/Real ID
Let me toot my horn and say, as I predicted in 04 and 05, the left leaners and the right leaners are now exhibiting remorse that they scoffed at the Bush Plan. Too late now.
What do you classify as "permanent" visas?
There will still be a significant level of border enforcement and as we saw this past year, there are some cracks showing up on interior enforcement/Real ID
Lots of show, little improvement. We still haven't fully implemented the US Visit Program. We lack a system to track and deport visa overstays, the source of about one-third of our illegals. Our borders remain open even though the Administration lacks to tout the fact that we are apprehending over a million illegals a year trying to enter. That works out to more than 80,000 a month coming across the border, which sounds like an invasion. And another 500,000 to one million make it across.
If this country suffers another 9/11 scale attack and it is discovered that the perpetrators were smuggled across the border or if they are visa overstays [like 4 of the 19 9/11 hijackers], the buck will stop in the WH. Our national security is being compromised yet there is no sense of urgency in securing our borders. Why?
Let me toot my horn and say, as I predicted in 04 and 05, the left leaners and the right leaners are now exhibiting remorse that they scoffed at the Bush Plan. Too late now.
The so-called Bush Plan was a disaster. It would have destroyed this country. The WH turned its back on the House passed enforcement bill in 2005-6. If the WH had supported it, we would be much better off now. Congress and the WH are learning to their dismay that is where the American people are. The worse the problem gets, the more Congress will come around. I have no idea about who is expressing remorse that the 2007 Senate bill was not passed given its 26% public approval level.
Which takes back to an earlier reply on this thread, the House went on tour, which led to the defeat of Hayworth.
BTW, you don't hear much of Sensenbrenner these days. He is the House GOP's crazy aunt and they keep him in the basement/on the back bench.
Pure nonsense. I went over with you the reasons why Hayworth lost. It wasn't due to his stance on immigration.
BTW, you don't hear much of Sensenbrenner these days. He is the House GOP's crazy aunt and they keep him in the basement/on the back bench.
You must be joking. He is currently Rankng Member of the Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming, on the Committee on Science and Technology Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight (Ranking Member), and a member of the Judiciary Committee.
This "crazy aunt" has a lifetime ACU rating of 88 serving almost 30 years in Congress. He has a very active record as a legislator in terms of bills he has sponsored and co-sponsored. We need more "crazy aunts" like him.
That’s why Hastert and Frist had to go network TV and apologize for him.
LOL. I would wear that like a badge of honor.
Frist left and Hastert is leaving. Eventually you will have a Govt that will implement your dream.
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