Hollywood's terrorists: Mormon, not Muslim (Medved reviews "September Dawn")

USA Today ^ | 8/13/07 | Michael Medved

[tantiboh]

Due to USA Today's copyright complaints, I couldn't link to the actual editorial, and I didn't think it wise to excerpt the actual piece, but here's the address:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/08/hollywoods-terr.html

The review is also discussed here:

http://www.romneyexperience.com/2007/08/14/new-defenses/

Excerpt: "Michael Medved reviews September Dawn, the upcoming flick about an episode of 19th century Mormon violence. Medved makes the very good point that Mormons generally take their public opinion licks pretty well, with no signs of rioting in the streets or driving explosives laden cars into crowds. Given this, Medved argues that Hollywood’s drive to portray Mormons as terrorists, while giving Islamic Jihadists a complete pass, is a little suspicious. This is not a Romney-focused argument, but it’s nice to see a vigorous defense of a minority religious community that is full of nothing if not good citizens."

[Rameumptom]

>>That's a tempting conclusion to draw, but was it widely known that Mitt Romney was going to be a presidential candidate when the movie was greenlighted?

Hugh Hewitt details the DNC attack machine back in 2004 requesting all public records about Romney from birth until the resent in preparation for his possible presidential run. They came up with a list and his name was on top. To date they have hit him more than any other candidate. So that the movie was made in 05 a year after the DNC started their opposition research on him may or may not be connected but it is plausible.

[Rameumptom]

see post #141

[Rameumptom]

see post #141.

[Sherman Logan]

Please note I excluded Indian Wars atrocities.

In none of the other cases, as far as I know, were the victims lured into surrendering on terms, them massacred afterwards, with the treachery planned in advance.

All aspects considered, I’m quite comfortable with my assertion that it was the most horrifying atrocity committed by Americans in North America, again with the possible exception of various Indian Wars incidents.

[Rameumptom]

The Qu’ran does call for beheadings specifically. Neither the Bible or BOM do that I am aware.

[Sherman Logan]

Still doesn’t explain the poor tactics. If you have devastating ammo to use against a particular opposition candidate, you should do everything you can to get that candidate nominated, then use your ammo in the general election.

It would be very poor tactics to use this ammo to knock him out of the primaries, leaving the possibility that the opposition will then nominate a candidate you don’t have much on.

[Rameumptom]

Sam Houston the only Person in US history to be Governor of two states, Texas and Tennessee was a polygamist. (ie marrying without divorcing). (I see wiki leaves out this fact conveniently) It was more common than many realize on the frontiers and in the Founding of our Nation. Mormons seem to be the main historical figures that catch much flack for the practice though.

[Rembrandt]

“Jesus never told his followers to go out and physically expel people from a land and take it over, and he explicitly rejected an earthly kingdom.

Joseph Smith did believe in territorial domination and his kingdom was very earthly. And it got even more earthly when he had the “revelation” about polygamy.

In any case, I hope you’re not equating your “prophet,” Joseph Smith, with Jesus, the Son of God. Joseph Smith himself did, with his doctrine that he and all of us become gods. Well, actually, not all of us, only the white men. Although I believe that black men now get in on it, after the revelation of the head Mormon some years ago permitting black males to be considered priests.

I suspect you are probably one of the Mormons who is attempting to come back to a good evangelical-style Protestant Christianity, and I think this is a wonderful thing. I wish you all the best, but I think there needs to be some honesty about Mormon beliefs first, and then perhaps Mormons can be reconciled with Christianity.

An excellent book that I read some time ago was Krakauer’s Under the Skies of Heaven, about Mormon fundamentalists.

I have always been interested in this because about 30 years ago, purely by accident, I happened to camp at the place where the Mountain Meadows massacre occurred. I did a lot of reading about it at the time, and unfortunately for the good Mormons, I think this movie is pretty accurate.”

---

Your posts remind me of the character who played the mother of the lead actress in the movie “Carrie.”

[Rembrandt]

“This movie is extremely accurate from what I’ve seen of it so far.”

---

We’ve been told that Democrat Senator Robert Byrd’s previous membership in the Ku Klux Klan and ascension to Grand Kleagle did not constitute a pattern of behavior. Therefore, this one time episode of barbarism should be viewed the same, right?

[Rameumptom]

>>>All aspects considered, I’m quite comfortable with my assertion that it was the most horrifying atrocity committed by Americans in North America,

I consider the deaths at Winter Quarters just as bad. In effect what you are saying is a parrallel of saying Stalin's executions were worse than his forced starvations. It is something of a meaningless argument. Stalin committed atrocity through execution and forced starvation. Your definition of "atrocity" conveniently leaves out the forced starvation and exodus of thousands of Mormons.

Hundreds of Mormons over the few previous years had been killed. Thousands dies on the plains in the forced exodus. It may be convienient for some to not count these because they are not a one night event, but to me the cumulative atrocities suffered by Mormons are as wrong as the MMM. But to not count the Mormon deaths (which were a direct result of the forced migration) as an atrocity is a disingenuous use of defintions. Kind of like dismissing the forced starvation in Stalinist Russia or Cambodia as not an atrocity.

Even with the terrible atrocity of the MMM the numbers are nowhere close to the atrocities committed on the Mormons. I had ancestors who died on the plains in the forced migrations, so call me biased. I do not condone the MMM and agree it is an atrocity. I get bugged by the ignorance of murder of Mormons. So shoot me. Wait, it was only legal until the 1970's.

In just one grave site near Omaha there are over 500 dead, most of them are under 5 years old. I have been to this site and read the names and ages. We haven't even gotten into the systematic rape of Mormon women and girls or property crimes or other atrocities. Like when the liberty jail guards tried to feed the prisoners "Mormon meat" (ie human flesh).

FWIW also, the Mormons did spare those under 6. This was not the case in some of the exterminaton in Missouri. Mormon children were killed. (Joseph Smith's own infant son died as a result of mob violence). In the Haun's Mill Massacre one of the militia men said "nits make lice" as he blew the brains out of a young boy.

>>In none of the other cases, as far as I know, were the victims lured into surrendering on terms, them massacred afterwards, with the treachery planned in advance.

The murders in Carthage Jail match this description as well as others. You do not seem to be familiar with the disarming of the Mormons in the surrender terms at Nauvoo, Illinois just before the forced migration and execution of Mormons. So much for the whole surrender and well be peaceful thing. One 70 year old man was beaten on the temple steps and left to die for two days while the mob partied and got drunk inside.

___________________________________________

Winter Quarters Memorial. A couple buries their child.

The best starting point for mortality studies at Cutler's Park and Winter Quarters is the sexton records of both places. Three hundred sixty-one people were buried in the Cutler's Park burial ground and later in the nearby Winter Quarters cemetery (or cemeteries) between August 1846 and May 1848... more than twice as many people (248) died in the first year as in the succeeding year at Winter Quarters

For several reasons, the figure of 248 deaths can be used only as a starting point, as it is the number of known and recorded deaths and not the actual total. First, if the sexton's complaints are to be believed, many died without proper records."

Bennett explains that the sexton said that many would go and bury their dead in the grave yard without reporting the burial and that they would "sometimes bury between the graves thus altering the number of those already reported." He, the sexton, said, "that he did not know who were buried thus."1

"Although some of these may have been recorded eventually, the problem of non-reporting and undercounting constantly plagued officials. It is probable, therefore, that a large number of deceased were never officially tabulated"

[Sherman Logan]

Sam Houston ... was a polygamist

Depends on your definition. At most he was a bigamist, as he never attempted to maintain a marital relationship with two women at the same time.

1829 Houston marries Eliza Allen. Marriage disintegrates almost immediately. Reason still mysterious. Houston resigns as governor of TN.

1830 Houston marries Tiana Rogers in a Cherokee ceremony. Not considered a legal marriage by most, if not all, American jurisdictions.

1833 Houston divorces Eliza Allen.

Sometime during this period Tiana Rogers Houston divorces Houston under Cherokee customary law and marries another man.

1838 Tiana Rogers Houston dies of pneumonia.

1840 Houston marries Margaret Lea.

The only one way you can consider Houston a polygamist or bigamist is if you consider his marriage to Tiana Rogers under Cherokee law a legal marriage, which most American jurisdictions at the time did not.

[Rameumptom]

>>Please note I excluded Indian Wars atrocities.

As well as Blacks in Rosewood.

Why don't you just say MMM is the worst "Honkie on Honkie" massacre. We can then ignore the ones involving all the other groups just so it neatly fits your premise. /sarc

Here is another question. Since no one disputes the fact that Indians were involved in the murders, some of the murders would invariably fall into your excluding "indian" atrocities. Should we put a number on the percentage at MMM committed by the "non-white" and count them out of the final tally?

I am being specious here I don't wantto come across as condoning the MMM atocity which I condemn but I am saying your premise is flawed.

[Sherman Logan]

I sympathize to some extent with your viewpoint.

However, if we are going to bring in deaths caused by exposure, starvation, hardship, disease, etc. it will significantly expand the number of atrocities on the books.

I have been talking about specific murders in the legal sense. Physical damage intentionally committed causing the death of another human.

Hundreds of Mormons over the few previous years had been killed.

I've seen this claim made many times. As far as I can determine, Haun's Mill was far and away the highest death count of any of the Mormon War incidents in MO or IL. I've tried many times to get a compilation of all such events, without success. If you can help me get one documenting these hundreds of Mormons specifically murdered by the mobs, I'd appreciate it. The very limited compilation I've been able to put together is well under an hundred total over all the years of the conflict. A good number of these died in combat, which makes classifying their deaths as murder at least debatable.

FWIW also, the Mormons did spare those under 6. This was not the case in some of the exterminaton in Missouri. Mormon children were killed. (Joseph Smith's own infant son died as a result of mob violence). In the Haun's Mill Massacre one of the militia men said "nits make lice" as he blew the brains out of a young boy.

I'd appreciate a reference with regard to Smith's son.

I believe the young Mormon boy murdered at Haun's Mill was 10 years old, not under 6. I also believe this was a single incident, not a pattern of behavior. If you have references indicating otherwise, please present them. In any event, this was one boy, not dozens of older children and adolescents as at MM.

It is also relevant that most at least of the Mormons dead at Haun's Mill died in combat, victims of their own tactical incompetence in choosing a place to fort up, rather than being murdered. If you cannot see a moral difference between killing men who are shooting back at you, and murdering women, children and men who have surrendered to you on terms, trusting in your good faith, we may not have a lot to discuss further.

I have repeatedly had discussions with Mormons claiming hundreds or thousands of deaths in the mob attacks. When asked for documentation, they suddenly get vague and nebulous, and we start talking about people dying of exposure, hunger and disease, rather than specific and intentional murders.

I would really love to see a compilation of all Mormons murdered by mobs, by date and location. Then we could discuss actual facts, rather than nebulous claims of hundreds or thousands of victims.

I am fully prepared to believe that number died, I'd just like to see something resembling proof.

[Sherman Logan]

Sis blacks and two whites are documented as killed in the Rosewood incident. Your own post claimed that somewhere between 26 and 150 died. It is at best debatable that the death toll was higher than at MM, and even if the highest, perhaps exaggerated, number is accepted, it would be only slightly higher.

My contention that this is the greatest atrocity in American history is not based solely on the number murdered. It includes the cold-blooded and planned in advance treachery of the killers, and the intentional slaughter of large numbers of women and children. In both aspects it is very nearly unique.

In the same way, I consider Goliad, where the victims surrendered on terms which were later violated, a true atrocity.

OTOH, the Alamo, where the defenders refused terms and fought to the end, was not an atrocity in the same sense.

[Sherman Logan]

I cannot consider MM an incident in the Indian Wars, since few if any would have been killed by Indians had they not first trusted in the honor of the Mormons to whom they surrendered.

The moral responsibility for the death of those killed by the Indians is on those who disarmed and then betrayed them.

[colorcountry]

The Qu’ran does call for beheadings specifically. Neither the Bible or BOM do that I am aware.

You are correct. But the Temple Ceremony (which isn't publicized by the Church) recently removed (1990) the covenant of disembowelment and throat slitting.

[Rameumptom]

>>However, if we are going to bring in deaths caused by exposure, starvation, hardship, disease, etc. it will significantly expand the number of atrocities on the books.

>>>I have been talking about specific murders in the legal sense. Physical damage intentionally committed causing the death of another human.

>>>If you cannot see a moral difference between killing men who are shooting back at you, and murdering women, children and men who have surrendered to you on terms, trusting in your good faith, we may not have a lot to discuss further.

Was the Bataan Death March due to "exposure" or "murder"? How about the Trail of Tears? How about the Winter Exodus of the Mormons where they had given up thier weapons in the "surrender terms". The women and children were forcibly removed in the dead of winter contrary to the peace agreement. They left a trail of blood in the snow. Hundreds of babies and children as well as men and women died in the next months due to "exposure". History doesn't always fit into neat definitions. I see the MMM as an atrocity and the Winter Exodus as an atrocity.

Would you make the same argument about "legal" definitions of terms for the Bataan Death March?

Joseph Smith's infant son died due to "exposure". The mob came in and knocked the baby out of the bed he was sleeping in with Joseph. They pulled Joseph Smith out of his house beat him stripped him and tarred and feathered him. They tied him to a board and were going to castrate him but the Doctor couldn't go through with it. The baby died to exposure from the cold coming in. According to your limited definition I would assume this would not be classified as a murder since the baby "just happened to die" the next day. IMO, it is murder and I am guessing if it were your infant you would feel the same way. It is documented in a book "Rough Stone Rolling" which also relies on the testimony of the mobbers themselves.

>>>If you can help me get one documenting these hundreds of Mormons specifically murdered by the mobs, I'd appreciate it. The very limited compilation I've been able to put together is well under an hundred total over all the years of the conflict.

>>>I would really love to see a compilation of all Mormons murdered by mobs, by date and location. Then we could discuss actual facts,

I share this desire. Unfortunately as far as I know such a record does not exist. The history of the Mormons sufferings at the hands of the mobs is conveniently left out of most histories. The Saints did publish some of the crimes and murders of the mobs and Joseph Smith took it to Pres. Martin Van Buren. (This was before many of the later atrocities committed against them). Online some of the sworn affadavits are published but only piece meal. Many of the deaths are recorded in diaries. Like my two ancestors.

Another aspect which Is neglected in history is the political angle. Gov. Lilburn Boggs (Democrat) issues an extermination order. Pres. Martin Van Buren (Democrat) says Mormons constitutional rights are violated but that he will not intercede because it will turn Missouri against him politically. A month before his assasination Joseph Smith declares his candidacy for Presidency. At this time Gov. Ford attends the presidential delegation in 1844. Gov. Ford (Democrat) is implicated in sworn testimony as ordering the assasination of Joseph Smith by the mob. Gov. Ford goes on to write a history of Illinois where he spends a lengthy amount of time comparing himself to Ponius Pilate.

In true MSM fashion the actual history of atrocities against Mormons is hard to find out as are the political implications of events leading to a Presidential Candidates death by Democrats.

[Sherman Logan]

The Bataan Death March is not a very good analogy for you.

Soldiers who were unable to keep up were not just left by the wayside to die of disease or exposure, they were generally shot, bayonetted or intentionally run over by vehicles.

[Sherman Logan]

The treatment of Mr. Smith’s child was appalling and definitely constitutes an atrocity. However, I assume you will agree that it is on a somewhat different level of atrocity than if one of the mob members had intentionally cut the baby’s throat. Even more so if he had come to the house with the premeditated intention of killing the child.

[Sherman Logan]

The treatment of Mr. Smith’s child was appalling and definitely constitutes an atrocity. However, I assume you will agree that it is on a somewhat different level of atrocity than if one of the mob members had intentionally cut the baby’s throat. Even more so if he had come to the house with the premeditated intention of killing the child.