Posted on 09/12/2007 12:26:42 PM PDT by goldstategop
Most of the mainstream media is up in arms about a First Amendment Center poll showing that the majority of Americans (55%) believe that the Founding Fathers intended America to be a Christian nation.
USA Today "reporter" Andrea Stone, for instance, must think she doubles as an editorialist. Her report in today's edition features loaded, biased opinions with words like "erroneous" (regarding most Americans' belief) and "scariest" regarding other numbers in the poll. christianamerica.jpg
Frankly, as a Jew, I'm glad most Americans believe America was intended to be a Christian nation. And unlike Ms. Stone, I'm not so sure this is an erroneous belief. While our Founding Fathers believed in freedom of religion, there's no proof they did not see this as, ultimately, a Christian nation. And while some, like Thomas Jefferson, are believed to have been close to atheism, most were devout Christian men who believed in the Judeo-Christian laws of the Bible and based our system of government and laws on them.
As one who sees the growing threat of Islam within our borders, I'm glad most Americans see us as a Christian nation. That means that, likely, most still believe strongly in Christianity. And that's why our country is not yet in the position of Europe a/k/a Eurabia (a term coined by Bat Ye'or). Our strong Christian heritage is what has kept our country from heading down the Islamist path (so far). European nations have a strong atheist ethos, and that emptiness and nothingness is fast being replaced by an extremist belief in Allah.
Once we lose our Christian identity, we will lose our country. And I will lose my right to practice my Judaism freely.
So, I applaud the view shown by this poll. And, yes, I do believe the founders intended a Christian nation, where I can freely practice my non-Christian religion. I don't believe they intended a European-style vacuum to be easily dominated and replaced by an extremist religion (Islam), which will not allow anything else to live, let alone flourish.
Moreoever, there is a backlash against those who continue to persecute Christianity in America, while they continue to push Islam on our public institutions:
More people, 43%, say public schools should be allowed to put on Nativity re-enactments with Christian music than in 2005, when 36% did.
Notice the word "Nativity." We don't want Mohammed displays and pretenses at Islam in our public schools. But those things are what's happening, not the vilified, "nasty" N-word (Nativity), which, frankly, has far more basis in our country's founding.
Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion. And it doesn't mean freedom to push a barbaric religion shared by 19 hijackers on our public institutions, either.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
Michael Medved and Dennis Prager make the same kinds of arguments.
Excellent article.
We pray every night that God will have mercy on us for the ugliness and un-godliness creeping in, and continues to bless us as a nation.
Ditto. Bump.
B T T T
1) We all know that polls can often be designed/skewed to give whatever poll results the pollster wants. We’ve seen this in other polls (one whose results are generaly disagreeable to indivuduals here). So lets not overhype the results of this poll.
2) The results of some poll, even if accurate, don’t and shouldn’t have any bearing on what the Constition actualy says and means .... we are a Constitutional Republic....not a direct democracy..... and that’s a good thing.
3) I (and I’m agnostic) would tend to agree with the poll depending upon how they actualy interpert the question.
- Almost all of the Founders and citizens of this nation when it was formed were Christians of one flavor or another, even if only loosely so in some cases. No doubt, that thier faith helped shape PART of the beliefs and values they intended to imbue in thier new nation....and they expected that both the heritage and culture of this nation would reflect the values of it’s inhabitants.
Note, that I stressed PART. Remember that the monarchies back in Europe that our Founders rejected were ALSO thoroughly christian nations... and thier values, laws and customs also thoroughly reflected that faith.
- It is also abundantly clear that our Founders and early citizens had a VERY healthy distrust for the excercize of government power over the individual and the excesses that could result for it, this included ESPECIALY the religious sphere. One has only to look at the religious turmoil that gripped Europe in the years leading up to the Revolution.... and the violance and repression that it gave rise to in order to understand the sound basis for such distrust. Don’t forget that many colonies were origionaly founded by refugees from Europe fleeing religious repression.
- It is abundantly clear that the Founders never intended Christianity (of any dinomination) to become an official religion of the State. They pretty much intended, government avoid interfereing (either positively or negatively) to any great extent with the religious practice and beliefs of individuals..... as they intended it to refrain from interfering to any great extent in so many other aspects of the private lives of it’s citizens. Thus I don’t think, they intended America to be a “Christian Nation” in the same vein that many here would wish it to be..... and for that I am profoundly thankfull.
“Thus I don’t think, they intended America to be a “Christian Nation” in the same vein that many here would wish it to be..... and for that I am profoundly thankfull.”
Why do you think that for the first 200 or so years of this nation, there was prayer in schools, the Bible used to teach reading in earlier days, Christmas plays, Nativity scenes all over, and the commandment to keep the sabbath holy recognized in law in most every state?
All those things were practiced until the 1970s or so, until atheists and others found judges who’d rule them unconstitutional. What do you think the practices on such matters were while the founders still lived, your being so certain of what the intended? Maybe the practices of their day is the best reflection of what they intended.
Actually, the first amendment reads “Congress shall pass no law...”, and there is a reason for this wording. At the time of ratification, some states had official religions. For example, Pennsylvania was founded by Quakers, Maryland by Catholics. What the first amendment did was to bar the federal government from imposing one strain of Christianity on all the states.
The plain meaning of the first amendment became corrupted by activist courts in the 20th century. They decided to use the language of the 14th amendment (written for the protection of former slaves) to apply the restrictions the bill of rights placed on the federal government against the states as well. This is called “incorporation”. The first amendment, which protected the states’ right to have state religions, became re-interpreted to deny states any right to recognize religion at all - especially Christianity.
Christianity and Christian principles founded America but America is not a Christian nation.
Some Americans and virtually all of the mainstream media become confused trying to extend the notion of Christianity to the creation of America’s government. America’s government was established by the Constitution and the Constitution does not establish a religion for the nation nor is it allowed to ever do so without amendment.
There are a few words in the Constitution that implies an association with a creator. One of those is the word blessings in the preamble to the Constitution.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Another possible reference to a creator exists in Article VII: The Ratification Process.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names
However, the First Amendment to the Constitution should clear up confusion resulting from misleading information. I am speaking, for example, to misleading references like a “separation of church and state”, which does not exist in the constitution.
Amendment I: Freedom of speech, religion, press, petition and assembly
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
What should be clear from a most casual reading of the First Amendment is that the government is not empowered to assign a religion for the entire nation. Further application of a more critical thinking of the First Amendment should make it abundantly clear that the Constitution recognizes that while the government could not have a religion the people certainly could and most likely would. To that end the First Amendment forbid this newly formed government from interfering in any way with the citizen’s right to observe a religion.
As long as I'm standing, there'll be about two square feet of Christendom left on earth.
If I remember correctly, that is what Cromwell wanted, a single Anglican, Church of England Colony.
'Nuff said.
;-/
Absolutely; it’s what the Founders expected/persumed would happen. It’s in their writings across the board. They had no clue how low Americans would or could go.
most founders were active in their churches, some like Washington (Fall Church Episcopal Church), were active lay leaders. They quoted the Bible freely in their deliberations, even Franklin.
Jefferson gets a lot of bad press, but he never denied the divinity of Christ. He publically said he did not believe the miracles. His “Jefferson Bible,” as I have read, was the Bible with the parts with which he disagreed clipped out.
The Founders created a set of laws to govern the only thing that they were assembled to address - The Federal Government.
They were silent about the laws of individual states and localties because they didn’t believe they had any JURISDICTION to create law governing those.
Essentialy they believed that the Federal governments jurisdiction over the states or localties should be SEVERELY LIMITED. States should be pretty much free to govern themselves...except in matters that affected the nation as a whole (such as going to war) ...or in instances where they had disputes with other states.... that was pretty much the only places it was felt the Fed’s should step in.
Thus, you can’t construe, that they intended America to be a “Christian nation” in the vein you are talking about simply because they didn’t bar states from having official religions... or bar Bibles being used in local classrooms. The only thing you can construe from that is their view on the proper relationship between the Federal government and the states. At the only level they fealt they had proper jurisdiction, the only level they were creating laws for, the Federal... they DID bar the establishment of an official religion.... that should tell you something about their attitude toward Government involvment in religion.
Prior to the Civil War... the ENTIRE Bill of Rights only applied to the Federal government... If Maryland wanted to convict some-one of a serious crime without providing a jury trial it could. The Civil War constituted a massive expansion of Federal powers over the states. The 14th Ammendment is pretty clearly written to extend Federal power over the states to prohibit them from violating the fundemental rights of citizens. Although it wasn’t explicit about exactly what those rights were...and the Courts historicaly have taken an incremental approach to defining them.
Today, MOST of the provisions of the Bill of Rights... NOT just the establishment clause of the 1st Ammendment ... have been ruled at one point or another to have been incorporated by the 14th Ammendment. I believe the only ones left out are the 2nd Ammendment Right to Bears Arms, the 3rd Ammendment right about billeting of soldiers and the 5th Ammendment clause about grand jurys.... and a fair reading of the 14th Ammendment (IMO) would include those rights too.
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