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Craig attorneys say no crime occurred
Minneapolis Star and Tribune ^ | 26 September 2007 | Rochelle Olson,

Posted on 09/26/2007 12:42:57 PM PDT by shrinkermd

Sen. Larry Craig's actions an airport bathroom stall in June didn't constitute a crime and he should be allowed to withdraw his guilty plea, Craig's lawyer argued today. In a 45-minute hearing covered by a crowd of local and national media, William Martin faced skeptical questioning from Hennepin County District Court Judge Charles Porter, Jr. Porter said he doesn't expect to rule on Craig's petition for at least a week and a half.

"Seeking to have a guilty plea overturned is nearly impossible and it should be," Martin acknowledged during the hearing. But he also argued that Craig's plea was not voluntary, intelligent or accurate.

He said that Craig's behavior at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport -- tapping and bumping his foot, sliding his hand under the bathroom stall and peeking into a stall -- does not equal disorderly conduct.

Martin said, "Craig vehemently denied committing or attempting to commit any crime."

Judge Porter countered that the disorderly conduct statute is intentionally broad and is intended to catch behavior that makes other people uncomfortable. Porter peppered Martin with a series of questions.

Metropolitan Airports Commission prosecutor Christopher Renz argued that Craig's attempt to withdraw his plea was flawed because it was filed too late and that he committed the crime by engaging in "a series of invasions into the stall space next to him."

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Politics/Elections; US: Idaho
KEYWORDS: 110th; cottaging; craig; larrycraig; neverhavebengay; plea; tearooms; togayornottogay
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He has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion on what others think he wanted to do rather than what he actually did.
1 posted on 09/26/2007 12:43:06 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd
Soooo.........does this mean ALL others caught in this sting did nothing wrong either? The people of the public that demanded the police do something about this, leading to the setting up of this sting,.....were they wrong?
2 posted on 09/26/2007 12:45:13 PM PDT by gidget7 ( Vote for the Arsenal of Democracy, because America RUNS on Duncan!)
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To: gidget7

Yes, and up to 40 of them have or will appeal to a jury trial.


3 posted on 09/26/2007 12:46:23 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd
Craig's "intention" to resign from Congress is effective in about 4 days.

The judge says he may need up to a week-and-a-half to render a decision.

I'll betcha a Duncan doughnut that he puts off his resignation from the House due to the "pending court decision."

Then, I bet he rescinds his decision to resign.....period.

Leni

4 posted on 09/26/2007 12:52:29 PM PDT by MinuteGal (Three Cheers For the FRed, White and Blue !)
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To: shrinkermd

Did they plead guilty also?


5 posted on 09/26/2007 12:53:44 PM PDT by blaquebyrd
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To: blaquebyrd

I don’t know, but the “privacy stature” they are being tried on was designed two years ago to prevent men from taking pictures of girls in the bathroom.

This statute was never used until the present time for any “homosexual hunts.” It was used by the airport people and rounded up fifty or so individuals—none of whom asked for or acted in a sexual manner.


6 posted on 09/26/2007 12:57:18 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd
He has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion on what others think he wanted to do rather than what he actually did.

Really? I thought it pleaded guilty.

7 posted on 09/26/2007 12:58:43 PM PDT by TankerKC (32570 21R)
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To: TankerKC

Hey guys we are being pretty rough on ole wide stance, how about we all chip in and buy him a sixpack of Miller as a going away present. Kind of our way of saying “Larry, you suck”.


8 posted on 09/26/2007 1:04:23 PM PDT by Jigajog
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To: shrinkermd

>> He has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion on what others think he wanted to do rather than what he actually did.

Whatever are you talking about?

The perv plead GUILTY — while the crime he VOLUNTARILY PLEAD GUILTY TO was NOT known to the public!

C’mon, get real. Craig is not a retarded person or something that the state is taking advantage of. He’s a senator! Jokes aside, he darn well knows what he pleaded to and why he made the plea.


9 posted on 09/26/2007 1:04:43 PM PDT by Nervous Tick
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To: shrinkermd
Sorry Larry “the prairie fairy” Craig, you did commit a crime. Resign now!

SWR is a crime in all 50 states!

( SWR= Swishing While Republican)

10 posted on 09/26/2007 1:07:00 PM PDT by Beagle8U (FreeRepublic -- One stop shopping ....... Its the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: MinuteGal

Craig’s misadventure in the outhouse, true or false, has branded him. If Larry stumbled into this mess by accident I am sorry for him. However, to the public he is just another Republican guilty of lewd behavior. The party just does not need this at any time. So long Senator Craig.


11 posted on 09/26/2007 1:08:20 PM PDT by ANGGAPO (LayteGulfBeachClub)
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To: Jigajog
He deserves no better than a six of Milwaukee's Beast ... in cans.


12 posted on 09/26/2007 1:10:47 PM PDT by jdm
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To: shrinkermd
"It was used by the airport people and rounded up fifty or so individuals—none of whom asked for or acted in a sexual manner."

My understanding is that there are homo websites that, if one is inclined, lists local public facilities where this activity occurs. This airport bathroom was notorious for such activity. That's why the cops had an ongoing sting. Vice cops are paid to know the signs. I find it hard to believe that they just arrested 40 guys for using the bathroom. Maybe it's me, but I've used public restrooms for over 40 years and I've never touched another man's foot.

13 posted on 09/26/2007 1:12:44 PM PDT by blaquebyrd
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To: jdm
Naa, A foam cup of Beast draft.
14 posted on 09/26/2007 1:13:41 PM PDT by Beagle8U (FreeRepublic -- One stop shopping ....... Its the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Jigajog

I think he would prefer a bottle of a nice chardonnay.


15 posted on 09/26/2007 1:15:08 PM PDT by King of Florida (A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them.)
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To: shrinkermd

Unfortunately no one can deny that right or wrong, Craig lacked the leadership skills to realize that, legally, his legal position now is the one he would have been advised to take in the first place, if he had consulted a lawyer; and the one he should have taken originally.

It would not have completely avoided the “scandal” because it still would have become public and no matter how he makes his plea, the public will judge him, either way, regardless.


16 posted on 09/26/2007 1:15:43 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: MinuteGal

He can’t resign from the House, since he is a Senator.


17 posted on 09/26/2007 1:18:45 PM PDT by La Enchiladita (Where were you when the world stopped turning...)
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To: shrinkermd

I hope he continues with his plan to resign. He’d be a fool to do anything else.

As for being guilty of whatever he pled guilty to ... was it disturbing the peace? ... I guess it’s no more entrapment than having a police officer solicit prostitutes, but I think all of that is wrong.

If a working girl wants to work... it’s no big deal to me.

And if a guy wants to have weird bathroom sex, I don’t care about that either, although he could well be accused of reckless endangerment to his wife.

The main thing is the risk either of those behaviors poses to the wife... but I don’t know that the law applies to that.


18 posted on 09/26/2007 1:18:52 PM PDT by altura
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To: blaquebyrd

“Maybe it’s me, but I’ve used public restrooms for over 40 years and I’ve never touched another man’s foot.”

ROFL that simple perspective is missing in this entire thread - how many people here would find any in-stall signal communication, even just foot-tapping in response to the next stall, normal?


19 posted on 09/26/2007 1:19:10 PM PDT by WoofDog123
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To: altura
And if a guy wants to have weird bathroom sex, I don’t care about that either...

You might if you had a kid who needed a rest room....

20 posted on 09/26/2007 1:20:06 PM PDT by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: Nervous Tick

The police and the prosecutor charged him with two crimes. His second crime, that which he plead to, was a disturbing the peace generic admission. It was not an admission of homosexuality, homosexual intent and so forth. The recording of the interaction between the officer and Senator Craig bear that out.

Senator Craig was under the gun by his local paper—the editor of which was a liberal type who previously worked at the St. Paul Paper. They were looking for evidence he was a homosexual and had rumors only. Of course, if he was charged with the same, he was finished as viable Senate candidate.

The officer claimed Senator Craig would remain anonymous since he would not contact the press. Those that are so smart to second guess Senator Craig and counsel might also tell us who called the Washington DC blogger that broke this story.

Conservatives, IMHO, are far too quick to demand resignation or worse for those who have or look like they have participated or want to participate in some homosexual act. Since male homosexuality (point prevalence) is 4%, this means about 1 in 20 are open to Republican scorn and punishment.

Thus far, when the RATS want to dispose of a Republican office holder they either charge racism or sexual impropriety. We do the rest.

In the meantime, the RATS have unequivocal homosexual Congressmen. They also have a former President who solicited fellatio from a 21 year old female intern. In both instances public opinion remained unchanged or actually (in Clinton’s case) soared.

If you truly believe that you do not want homosexuals to serve in Congress—simply include such a prohibition in the Party Platform.


21 posted on 09/26/2007 1:21:12 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: Wuli

His American Conservative Union rating was 95%—one of the highest in the Senate.


22 posted on 09/26/2007 1:22:50 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: mewzilla

You’ve got a point there....

in fact, you’re right. Public places should be out of bounds for that kind of behavior.


23 posted on 09/26/2007 1:23:40 PM PDT by altura
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To: altura
Nonsense. He has nothing to gain by resigning and doing so will only convince others he was, indeed, a cruising homosexual and his previous long years of service (95% ACU rating) were fraudulent.

Janis Joplin—”Courage is nothing left to lose.” That is the spot the Senator is now in. Let us see what kind of man he is.

The only thing that could happen is the Senate could hold hearings and try to expel him. For the last 260 years no Senator has been expelled for an off duty misdemeanor.

24 posted on 09/26/2007 1:26:23 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: blaquebyrd
Maybe it's me, but I've used public restrooms for over 40 years and I've never touched another man's foot.

If there was a man in a stall next to me trying to play footsie in a public restroom, I'd scream.

I am female.

25 posted on 09/26/2007 1:27:23 PM PDT by pray4liberty (Watch and pray.)
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To: altura
Craig's just freaking lucky no-one walked in and caught him in flagrante delicto.
26 posted on 09/26/2007 1:27:29 PM PDT by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: shrinkermd

Good luck getting the plea withdrawn. I understand that Judge Porter is a no nonsence Ex-marine with a short temper and little tolerance for games.

I predict that in two weeks he will say................no.


27 posted on 09/26/2007 1:30:50 PM PDT by READINABLUESTATE ("life is dangerous")
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To: shrinkermd
The only thing that could happen is the Senate could hold hearings and try to expel him. For the last 260 years no Senator has been expelled for an off duty misdemeanor.

This is one case in which a little zero tolerance might do some real good. Teenagers are expelled from school, lose their drivers licenses, and generally get the book thrown at them for a whole lot less. Our illustrious Senators wrote those safe school laws. Maybe we ought to have the Senate declared an educational institution and throw them all out.

28 posted on 09/26/2007 1:33:35 PM PDT by pray4liberty (Watch and pray.)
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To: READINABLUESTATE
Judge Porter is a no nonsence Ex-marine with a short temper

Sounds like your typical gay sympathizer.

29 posted on 09/26/2007 1:35:08 PM PDT by King of Florida (A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them.)
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To: shrinkermd
Martin said, "Craig vehemently denied committing or attempting to commit any crime."

And then he pleaded guilty....

30 posted on 09/26/2007 1:35:56 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: Beagle8U
Sorry Larry “the prairie fairy”

Prairie? He's from Idaho.

31 posted on 09/26/2007 1:38:18 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (Take the wheel, Fred.)
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To: shrinkermd

“Freedom’s just another word for nuthin’ left to lose,....


32 posted on 09/26/2007 1:39:15 PM PDT by altura
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To: ElkGroveDan
Close enough. Plus it rhymes.
33 posted on 09/26/2007 1:40:14 PM PDT by Beagle8U (FreeRepublic -- One stop shopping ....... Its the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: shrinkermd

Sorry, but everybody who heard the tape knows that the guy was cruisin’

Sometimes there are kinda straight conservative men who have this uncontrollable urge to have quickie anonymous sex with guys. I don’t get it, but it’s obviously not uncommon. Craig probably detached himself so thoroughly from this behavior that he didn’t think about it most of the time.

Staying in the limelight will just prolong the embarrasment for him and for Republicans.

I know that it’s like pulling teeth with tweezers to get those guys out of the Senate, but going quietly into that good night is the only sensible thing to do at this point.


34 posted on 09/26/2007 1:43:35 PM PDT by altura
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To: Beagle8U
Close enough.

True. Not too far from the Great Lake State of Arizona.

35 posted on 09/26/2007 1:46:20 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (Take the wheel, Fred.)
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To: ElkGroveDan

Just around the corner...lol


36 posted on 09/26/2007 1:47:53 PM PDT by Beagle8U (FreeRepublic -- One stop shopping ....... Its the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Beagle8U

If Craig is guilty, what does that make Hillary Clinton re: her Hsu conspiracy?


37 posted on 09/26/2007 1:48:17 PM PDT by crazyshrink
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To: crazyshrink

Huh?


38 posted on 09/26/2007 1:51:08 PM PDT by Beagle8U (FreeRepublic -- One stop shopping ....... Its the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: crazyshrink

the two cases have nothing to do with each other

In Craig’s case, it was a conservative Republican caught in embarassing but not criminal behavior.

In Hillary’s case, it is a democrat who will never be caught engaging in actual criminal behavior.

Do the math!


39 posted on 09/26/2007 1:53:38 PM PDT by altura
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To: shrinkermd

“Craig attorneys say no crime occurred”

They’re right, of course — but once he pleaded guilty it was over for him.


40 posted on 09/26/2007 1:54:52 PM PDT by vetsvette (Bring Him Back)
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To: Beagle8U

Based on the evidence used in Craig’s case (he was intending to do this and that, but didn’t, and denies he was intending), why is Hillary not charged/guilty of conspiracy with Hsu?


41 posted on 09/26/2007 1:58:51 PM PDT by crazyshrink
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To: crazyshrink

Obviously I am being a rationalist and not a moralist, but that is a conservative faux pas used against conservatism every day by liberals.

I am not a big fan of Craig’s and certainly despise H. Clinton.


42 posted on 09/26/2007 2:02:27 PM PDT by crazyshrink
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To: altura

In Craig’s case, it was a conservative Republican caught in embarassing but not criminal behavior.
************
If it was not criminal, why is Craig guilty? Why are others found guilty?

I don’t believe is guilty of a crime. The court did/does. My point is that Hilary is in the same position legally, as Craig. If he is found guilty, why shouldn’t she be charged?

We agree, just come about it from differing perspectives.


43 posted on 09/26/2007 2:10:50 PM PDT by crazyshrink
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To: shrinkermd
This is a pretty strange circumstance. What is sad is he had a good voting record. They are there to do a job and he seemed to do his well for conservatives.

The last place I would look to find moral guidance is from politicians. Morality, for the most part, is not in a politician's makeup, Republican or Democrat.
44 posted on 09/26/2007 2:12:11 PM PDT by microgood
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To: Nervous Tick

Well, it’s well known that he plead guilty to disorderly conduct only, and anyone can see the plea paperwork on The Smoking Gun.

Not sure how it got around that he plead guilty to anything else.


45 posted on 09/26/2007 2:23:48 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: TankerKC

He plead guilty to disorderly conduct, yes.


46 posted on 09/26/2007 2:25:21 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: shrinkermd
The police and the prosecutor charged him with two crimes &etc.
Senator Craig was under the gun by his local paper—the editor &etc.
The officer claimed Senator Craig would remain anonymous &etc

Your list of technicalities aside, which of the following do you dispute, or disagree with?

a) Larry Craig is a homosexual

b) Larry Craig wishes to deceive the conservative (putatively, anti-homosexual) voters who elected him, by hiding (and denying) his homosexuality

c) Larry Craig did, in fact, engage in the behavior documented by a police officer in Craig's arrest report

d) Sen. Craig engaged in this behavior because he was, in fact, soliciting gay sex from a total stranger in a public place, namely, a men's room

e) Citizens have an expectation of entering a men's room to relieve themselves without being solicited for gay sex by a pervert; therefore, it is reasonable to make and enforce laws against such behavior

f) Whether or not it's illegal, soliciting gay sex from strangers in a men's room is not acceptable behavior from a senator, whether said senator is openly gay or not

g) Senator Craig, as a lawmaker, is well versed in matters of law and is of normal or above average intelligence

h) Senator Craig was caught in an offense, arrested for it, arraigned, and voluntarily pled guilty

Since male homosexuality (point prevalence) is 4%, this means about 1 in 20 are open to Republican scorn and punishment.

Games with statistics. I find that as a profession, psychs have always played fast and loose with stats... it's all they have, really. First of all, you state matter-of-factly that 4% of males are homosexual; I don't agree and neither does this source, which can only put the number at somewhere between 1% and 10% with the caveat that "Measuring the prevalence of homosexuality is difficult because there is a lack of reliable data".

Even so, suppose for the sake of argument we use your 4%; that's not "about 1 in 20", as you say, but exactly 1 in 25! Why did you feel the need to use an egregious math error to overstate even your already overstated percentage by another 20%?

Makes me wonder who you're carrying water for, and why.

47 posted on 09/26/2007 2:29:17 PM PDT by Nervous Tick
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To: shrinkermd
The police and the prosecutor charged him with two crimes &etc.
Senator Craig was under the gun by his local paper—the editor &etc.
The officer claimed Senator Craig would remain anonymous &etc

Your list of technicalities aside, which of the following do you dispute, or disagree with?

a) Larry Craig is a homosexual

b) Larry Craig wishes to deceive the conservative (putatively, anti-homosexual) voters who elected him, by hiding (and denying) his homosexuality

c) Larry Craig did, in fact, engage in the behavior documented by a police officer in Craig's arrest report

d) Sen. Craig engaged in this behavior because he was, in fact, soliciting gay sex from a total stranger in a public place, namely, a men's room

e) Citizens have an expectation of entering a men's room to relieve themselves without being solicited for gay sex by a pervert; therefore, it is reasonable to make and enforce laws against such behavior

f) Whether or not it's illegal, soliciting gay sex from strangers in a men's room is not acceptable behavior from a senator, whether said senator is openly gay or not

g) Senator Craig, as a lawmaker, is well versed in matters of law and is of normal or above average intelligence

h) Senator Craig was caught in an offense, arrested for it, arraigned, and voluntarily pled guilty

Since male homosexuality (point prevalence) is 4%, this means about 1 in 20 are open to Republican scorn and punishment.

Games with statistics. I find that as a profession, psychs have always played fast and loose with stats... it's all they have, really. First of all, you state matter-of-factly that 4% of males are homosexual; I don't agree and neither does this source, which can only put the number at somewhere between 1% and 10% with the caveat that "Measuring the prevalence of homosexuality is difficult because there is a lack of reliable data".

Even so, suppose for the sake of argument we use your 4%; that's not "about 1 in 20", as you say, but exactly 1 in 25! Why did you feel the need to use an egregious math error to overstate even your already overstated percentage by another 20%?

Makes me wonder who you're carrying water for, and why.

48 posted on 09/26/2007 2:29:20 PM PDT by Nervous Tick
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To: Nervous Tick

Apologies for the double post.


49 posted on 09/26/2007 2:31:38 PM PDT by Nervous Tick
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To: shrinkermd

Judge Porter countered that the disorderly conduct statute is intentionally broad and is intended to catch behavior that makes other people uncomfortable. Porter peppered Martin with a series of questions.
***Something to keep in mind. Craig’s attorneys have a tough time proving that no crime was committed if he pled guilty to the crime. Of course, what do they care? They get paid either way.


50 posted on 09/26/2007 2:43:50 PM PDT by Kevmo (We should withdraw from Iraq via Tehran. And Duncan Hunter is just the man to get that job done.)
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