Paul's call: end the IRS (Mod sez: No taxes of any kind! No war! Whoopee!)

Union Leader ^ | 9/30/07 | Garry Rayno

[traviskicks]

I don’t have a problem with mods altering inaccurate or misleading headlines, or even messing around, poking fun, joining in the forum or whatever is all good by me, it’s just that there wasn’t the usual notice saying the headline was altered by the mod, so somebody just perusing around FR might have thought I wrote it.

[Calpernia]

I think if we went to flat tax, we could get rid of the IRS. Just saying that the idea of no IRS is workable.

[Captain Kirk]

We didn't have a flat tax or an income tax before 1913 and got along fine.

[EternalVigilance]

What you think is not important for the purposes of this discussion. It’s what the candidates for POTUS think that matters.

And I don’t see Ron Paul offering up any practical, workable, constitutional, replacement for the income tax.

Minus that, his rhetoric is nothing more than demagoguery.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Paul’s rhetoric and stand on principle scares most Conservatives.

Standing on principle and honesty is scarier than coming face to face with Freddy Krueger for both Big Tent parties:

Judo works really well againt aging liberal hippie douchebag pacifists and left wingers. Next time they claim that the Iraq War was based on false pretenses and WMDs just say...

"We took a page out of the social engineering left wing playbook...if the goals were important and critical it doesn't matter what crap you had to invent to justify it. For example, you tree hugging environmentalists were upset when others didn't care about the rain forest...so you concocted this global warming idea to make it a little bit more personal. "

I've done it with my friends. It's laugh out loud funny when they have no answer. Try it.

[KDD]

May 7, 2001

The Case Against the Income Tax

Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker’s paycheck. In the late 1800s, when Congress first attempted to impose an income tax, the notion of taxing a citizen’s hard work was considered radical! Public outcry ensued; more importantly, the Supreme Court ruled the income tax unconstitutional. Only with passage of the 16th Amendment did Congress gain the ability to tax the productive endeavors of its citizens.

Yet don’t we need an income tax to fund the important functions of the federal government? You may be surprised to know that the income tax accounts for only approximately one-third of federal revenue. Only 10 years ago, the federal budget was roughly one-third less than it is today. Surely we could find ways to cut spending back to 1990 levels, especially when the Treasury has single year tax surpluses for the past several years. So perhaps the idea of an America without an income tax is not so radical after all.

The harmful effects of the income tax are obvious. First and foremost, it has enabled government to expand far beyond its proper constitutional limits, regulating virtually every aspect of our lives. It has given government a claim on our lives and work, destroying our privacy in the process. It takes billions of dollars out of the legitimate private economy, with most Americans giving more than a third of everything they make to the federal government. This economic drain destroys jobs and penalizes productive behavior. The ridiculous complexity of the tax laws makes compliance a nightmare for both individuals and businesses. All things considered, our Founders would be dismayed by the income tax mess and the tragic loss of liberty which results.

America without an income tax would be far more prosperous and far more free, but we must be prepared to fight to regain the liberty we have lost incrementally over the past century. I recently introduced “The Liberty Amendment,” legislation which would repeal the 16th Amendment and effectively abolish the income tax. I truly believe that real tax reform, reform that so many frustrated Americans desperately want, requires bold legislation that challenges the Washington mind set. Congress talks about reform, but the current tax debate really involves nothing of substance. Both parties are content to continue tinkering with the edges of the tax code to please various special interests. The Liberty Amendment is an attempt to eliminate the system altogether, forcing Congress to find a simple and fair way to collect limited federal revenues. Most of all, the Liberty Amendment is an initiative aimed at reducing the size and scope of the federal government.

Is it impossible to end the income tax? I don’t believe so. In fact, I believe a serious groundswell movement of disaffected taxpayers is growing in this country. Millions of Americans are fed up with the current tax system, and they will bring pressure on Congress. Some sidestep Congress completely, bringing legal challenges questioning the validity of the tax code and the 16th Amendment itself. Ultimately, the Liberty Amendment could serve as a flashpoint for these millions of voices.

[traviskicks]

You’ve said something nice about his libertarian domestic policy, and you’re still here.

Well, I can't say I am a 100% believer in all parts of Ron Paul's foreign policy views, but I think the basic idea of nonintervention, nonnation building, so-called 'ferocious isolationism', is certainly a conservative viewpoint, espoused by many other prominent conservatives, and worthy of debate, no?

Paul has other foreign policy proposals that are conservative in nature such as, US out of the UN, 'letters of Marque', arguing against the NAU, LOST, and big government 'free trade' agreements etc.. IMO.

[Calpernia]

I will NEVER believe a thing you post since you tried to pawn off your straw poll at the Official NJ RNC straw poll. You are a liar.

[KDD]

HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
January 30, 2003

End the Income Tax- Pass the Liberty Amendment

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to introduce the Liberty Amendment, which repeals the 16th Amendment, thus paving the way for real change in the way government collects and spends the people’s hard-earned money. The Liberty Amendment also explicitly forbids the federal government from performing any action not explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.

The 16th Amendment gives the federal government a direct claim on the lives of American citizens by enabling Congress to levy a direct income tax on individuals. Until the passage of the 16th amendment, the Supreme Court had consistently held that Congress had no power to impose an income tax.

Income taxes are responsible for the transformation of the federal government from one of limited powers into a vast leviathan whose tentacles reach into almost every aspect of American life. Thanks to the income tax, today the federal government routinely invades our privacy, and penalizes our every endeavor.

The Founding Fathers realized that “the power to tax is the power to destroy,” which is why they did not give the federal government the power to impose an income tax. Needless to say, the Founders would be horrified to know that Americans today give more than a third of their income to the federal government.

Income taxes not only diminish liberty, they retard economic growth by discouraging work and production. Our current tax system also forces Americans to waste valuable time and money on complacence with an ever-more complex tax code. The increased interest in flat-tax and national sales tax proposals, as well as the increasing number of small businesses that questioning the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) “withholding” system provides further proof that America is tired of the labyrinthine tax code. Americans are also increasingly fed up with an IRS that continues to ride roughshod over their civil liberties, despite recent “pro-taxpayer” reforms.

Mr. Speaker, America survived and prospered for 140 years without an income tax, and with a federal government that generally adhered to strictly constitutional functions, operating with modest excise revenues. The income tax opened the door to the era (and errors) of Big Government. I hope my colleagues will help close that door by cosponsoring the Liberty Amendment.

[Calpernia]

I don’t think Ron Paul should be eligible to run for President after this stunt:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1901940/posts
Congress Denounces Iran’s Ahmadinejad

16 that voted against it.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll895.xml

—— NAYS 16 -—

Abercrombie
Baldwin
Bartlett (MD)
Blumenauer
Conyers
Ellison
Flake
Gilchrest
Hinchey
Lee
McDermott
Miller, George
Moore (WI)
Olver
Paul
Stark

And I nominate him for testing out this E.O.:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1868556/posts
Executive Order: Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq

But this isn't for this discussion. I still think we can get rid of the IRS ;)

[Lirona]

"Muslims would be banned from immigrating here. "

and did he say what he would do with the muslims already here? Is he going to kick them all out?

Where and when did Ron Paul promise a muslim free America? Link please.

[traviskicks]

heh heh... not at all, just trying to eck out some sort of middle ground baseline for these big government types... :)

[KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle]

You are a liar.

Two of 'em uncovered on this thread, thus far; evidently, a Paulestinian behavioral trait. ;)

[EternalVigilance]

I’ve supported and contended for ending the income tax for many years. But, I back a constitutional, practical, workable, politically and economically viable way of doing it: the FairTax.

How does Ron Paul propose that we fund the legitimate functions of government? What is his plan for getting from where we are to where we need to be? Or, is he just demagoguing the issue for personal political gain?

[traviskicks]

Another ‘constitutional, practical, workable, politically and economically viable way’ to do it is to abolish about half the agencies in the Federal budget, that should cut the fat quite nicely.... for starters.

[AuH2O-1980]

If your new to an area, just how would you get this information?

Well, these days we've got this new-fangled machine called the Internet, where fine, upstanding citizens in any municipality across our great nation can share information about virtually anything -- including which restaurants in their neighborhoods are clean and which aren't.

[Lirona]

The article you linked to does not support your claim that Ron Paul will ban muslims from immigrating to the United States.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Anybody who has ANYTHING to do with politics in the DPRNJ is by definition a liar.

If you are involved Captain Kirk, than you Spock, Bones and Sulu are ALL LIARS.

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

The words "muslim" and "Islam" appear nowhere in the scanty and pathetically lacking document provided.

It doesn't have to be. Since immigration laws would be enforced under Paul, that means Muslims wouldn't be using visas and other ways to come here and cause trouble.

[EternalVigilance]

How you spend, and how you tax, are two different matters.

But, in either case, you have to have a practical way to get from here to there. I don’t see Ron Paul offering that.

“Modest excise taxes” are not going to get the job done, even if you’ve managed to slay the spending dragon.

His “vision” is an impractical one, with little connection to reality.

Which is one of the reasons his proposals in the Congress almost never go anywhere.