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Report: Israel 'blinded' Syrian radar
YNET ^ | 10.05.07, 01:15

Posted on 10/04/2007 7:46:14 PM PDT by james500

After Israeli missile strike on Syria confirmed by both sides, the question remains – how did Israel's non-stealth jets infiltrate Syrian airspace undetected? US aerospace experts tell Aviation Week magazine that Israel used new US-developed technology that lets users invade and manipulate enemy communication networks.

After Syrian President Bashar Assad admitted that Israeli planes carried out a missile strike in Syria and after the media blackout on the incident was lifted in Israel, many unanswered questions still remain regarding how IAF jets managed to infiltrate Syrian security.

An article published this week on the aerospace magazine Aviation Week & Space Technology's website offers the theory of experts in the field on how the Israeli F15 and F16 jets – which are not stealth fighters – managed to evade detection by Syrian air defense radar.

US aerospace industry and former US Air Force officials told Aviation Week's Senior Military Editor David A. Fulghum that Israel must have used "a technology like the US-developed 'Suter' airborne network attack system".

The cutting-edge technology allows users to invade enemy communication networks, to "see what enemy sensors see and even take over as systems administrator so sensors can be manipulated into positions so that approaching aircraft can't be seen", experts said.

In effect, the technology infiltrates and tricks enemy sensors by "directing data streams into them that can include false targets and misleading messages algorithms that allow a number of activities including control," the article explains.

The US system was recently tested successfully in operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, officials told Aviation Week.

(Excerpt) Read more at ynetnews.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: iran; israel; russia; syria
"The system is the new Tor-M1 launcher, and the Iranians bought 29 of them from Russia for $750 million to guard their nuclear sites. The Tor launchers were delivered in January, according to Agency France-Press and ITAR-TASS.

It is not confirmed that the Tor system was in fact the system guarding the Syrian site."

1 posted on 10/04/2007 7:46:17 PM PDT by james500
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To: james500

kewl!


2 posted on 10/04/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by ken21 ( people die + you never hear from them again.)
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To: james500
The US system was recently tested successfully in operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, officials told Aviation Week

... and put to good use in Syria ...

3 posted on 10/04/2007 7:51:33 PM PDT by Ken522
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To: james500

Bookmark


4 posted on 10/04/2007 7:52:55 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 ... Go ahead, look it up!)
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To: james500
Assuming that Israeli non-stealth jets were used...

otoh, can you trust Russia?

Then again, Israeli electronics are pretty good..

Ambiguity can be a defense.

5 posted on 10/04/2007 7:54:34 PM PDT by DBrow
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To: james500
KATZ: HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN!!
KATZ: DESTRUCTION ARE ON THE WAY TO YOU.
KATZ: HA HA HA HA....
6 posted on 10/04/2007 7:56:51 PM PDT by RichInOC (BASHAR: WHAT YOU SAY!!)
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To: shield; Dog; jeffers

ping as usual


7 posted on 10/04/2007 7:57:16 PM PDT by txhurl (Yes there were WMDs)
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To: james500

This is another reason we CAN NOT let Senator Hillary Clinton into the White House: She and her corrupt husband will sell this technology to the Russians, Chinese and Iranians about two hours after being sworn in!!


8 posted on 10/04/2007 7:58:45 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (https://www.fred08.com/contribute.aspx?RefererID=c637caaa-315c-4b4c-9967-08d864cd0791)
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To: james500

i.e. They fed it a virus.


9 posted on 10/04/2007 7:58:56 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (((Wi arr mi kidz faling skool ?)))
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To: james500

I hope the target they hit was worth exposing the capability.


10 posted on 10/04/2007 7:59:42 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Fred Dalton Thompson for President)
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To: james500

I hope they are sh*tting bricks over this.


11 posted on 10/04/2007 8:00:21 PM PDT by pissant (Duncan Hunter: Warrior, Statesman, Conservative)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Electing anti-American leftist traitors to high office is the only hope the Jihadists, the Russians and the Chinese have against US military technological superiority. Hillary would be the ultimate Jihadist coup.


12 posted on 10/04/2007 8:03:09 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: txflake

Wonder if this is true? I was hoping whatever was done was top secret and NO one would know. And then again maybe it’s a red herring...


13 posted on 10/04/2007 8:03:37 PM PDT by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: james500

The Israelis blinded them...with science!


14 posted on 10/04/2007 8:08:03 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: james500

Putin to Assad: “Sorry. No refunds!”


15 posted on 10/04/2007 8:08:51 PM PDT by airborne (Proud to be a conservative! Proud to support Duncan Hunter for President!)
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To: james500
even take over as systems administrator so sensors can be manipulated into positions so that approaching aircraft can't be seen"

Note to self -- when ticking off Israel: Don't use the words "Muhammad" "Allah" or "Osama Bin Laden" as system passwords...

16 posted on 10/04/2007 8:10:31 PM PDT by John123 ("What good fortune for the governments that the people do not think" -- Adolf Hitler)
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To: airborne
Putin to Assad: “Sorry. No refunds!” Also, all sales are final and cash down payment, please.
17 posted on 10/04/2007 8:10:42 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: james500

Since it was mentioned in the article,

I worked on sub assemblies for that type of technology in the late 70’s (79 - 80), the “F-16 cloaking device” although it was no where near what was described.

It was cool stuff 25 years ago, bet it’s come along way since.


18 posted on 10/04/2007 8:10:47 PM PDT by JMJJR (Paristan, Londonstan, Denmarkstan, Washigntonstan, how will you look in YOUR new burka ?)
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To: airborne
Putin to Assad: “Sorry. No refunds!”

Also, all sales are final and cash down payment, please.
19 posted on 10/04/2007 8:10:59 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: james500
how did Israel's non-stealth jets infiltrate Syrian airspace undetected

Because they were built by Russians and operated by Syrians?

20 posted on 10/04/2007 8:12:32 PM PDT by Rome2000 (Peace is not an option)
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To: james500
Image hosted by Photobucket.comwell Duh... and what was their FIRST clue?

the first impact???

21 posted on 10/04/2007 8:14:31 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist)
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To: james500
The system is the new Tor-M1 launcher, and the Iranians bought 29 of them from Russia for $750 million to guard their nuclear sites. The Tor launchers were delivered in January, according to Agency France-Press and ITAR-TASS.

IF true that is the most expensive Soviet Paper Weight I have ever heard of....

Gosh, that is beautiful, not only will they pay for these things, but Israel may blow them up! So they are humiliated twice! Syria and Iran would be the most recent Darwin Award Recipents! Oh my that is Shadenfreude city.....

22 posted on 10/04/2007 8:19:33 PM PDT by taildragger
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To: airborne; dead
I wish one of our photoshopper pros would do a Russian FTC-type Recall notice for their AD systems.

Hint, hint, dead.

23 posted on 10/04/2007 8:28:05 PM PDT by txhurl (Yes there were WMDs)
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To: NonValueAdded
I hope the target they hit was worth exposing the capability.

Yeah -- I haven't been following the mideast lately... what precipitated this I wonder?

24 posted on 10/04/2007 8:34:31 PM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: JMJJR; Dog; section9; Nick Danger; jeffers; Squantos; Jeff Head; Travis McGee

BAE’s Suter program (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003170.html) shouldn’t have been released into the clear.

For one thing, Remote Data Placement (RDP) is still in its infancy. I was under the impression that there were technological hurdles left to overcome.

For instance, consider how a simple hard drive works. Your computer has data. That data is sent to a controller. The controller tells the hard drive where, when, and how much to magnetize a certain area of disk. Poof, your data is stored on the hard drive.

OK, that’s all well and good. But if a disk is out in the open, not in a hard drive, not inside a computer, not inside a room, then magnetism (e.g. manipulated via laser heat or magnetic pulse or multiple-sourced polarized EM waves) can be directed at the same disk from a distance.

Poof, data is stored onto the disk from some distance away. Hey, it’s a neat technical feat for whiz kids to brag about.

...But it becomes problematic to perform RDP when the disk media is inside a metal hard drive...and even more difficult when the metal hard drive is inside a metal computer case...and more difficult again when the metal computer case is inside a hardened bunker. So useful RDP is a “future technology.”

Of course, data can still be manipulated over open wires like telephone lines (that’s not new), but that runs into routine checksum and static routines for data integrity...such that an ordinary home PC can routinely overcome a large amount of hostile RDP just as it filters out routine static.

But if the U.S. and/or Israel has overcome the hurdles above...it would be big.

Hostile foes would be forced to abandon electronic communications...possibly even having to abandon all computers themselves (which make all smart weapons possible).

If RDP is active in the field without any counter-measures, then our foes would be reduced to pre-1960 weapons technology and communications (even strong encryption would become problematic for them to maintain at any reasonable battle field speed) across the board.

ICBM’s would have to go back to analog targeting and release processes for warheads or risk being reprogrammed in mid-flight, jammed, or otherwise hijacked. Anti-aircraft missiles would have to go back to pure analog detection/targeting.

RDP would give us full knowledge of all electronic funds transfered. We’d have spyware in the very real sense of the term in every bank on the planet.

If we’ve got functioning RDP deployed today, that would place us at the electronic version of the 1945 Trinity test.


25 posted on 10/04/2007 8:42:22 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: james500

And the funny part is Putin told Hugo “Chubby” Chavez that if you put 100,000 AK-47s in an area the size of a football stadium that it will form a formidable air defense shield.

Now you know the rest of the story.


26 posted on 10/04/2007 8:48:59 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (No buy China!!)
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To: shield

If it is disinformation then it will drive them even more batty.

My fantasy is that Russia sold Israel transponders that make their aircraft invisible to the missile system they sold Syria. Thats leveraging your market position.

No doubt Syria and Iran have no clue at all what software easter eggs lie within the Russian missile system. Would Russia would sell a system to its badly behaving neighbors without a way for them to defeat it themselves if necessary?


27 posted on 10/04/2007 8:57:56 PM PDT by freeengineer
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To: taildragger

“IF true that is the most expensive Soviet Paper Weight I have ever heard of....”

Saddam also bought a ton of soviet paper weights. The proof Soviet technology does not work is that Saddam is not available to tell you that himself.

For the Russians it is a perfect scheme. If your defensive weapons don’t work, no one is left to complain.

Brilliant.


28 posted on 10/04/2007 9:03:40 PM PDT by JSteff (Reality= realizing you are not nearly important enough for the government to tap your phone.)
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To: james500

Jedi warriors used a cloaking device to baffle the Klingons, but I may have my metaphors mixed up.


29 posted on 10/04/2007 9:07:18 PM PDT by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: Southack
Consider this, how do air defenses work? At a fundamental level, you have 3 players, a radar-sensor, some form of command/control node, and a SAM launcher or AAA battery...

With something like a Patriot battery, all 3 components are co-located. But consider a distributed air-defense network. Or even one in which the local command/control node reports to a central command node. (Now who do we know that prefers centralized control? Hint, think Soviet era...) The reporting almost certainly is not hard-wired, land-line stuff. Particularly if you're designing a mobile system, or one that is supposed to survive battle damage to infrastructure, etc.

So there are a lot of comms going on via radio - computer to computer. This may include tracking messages from the radar computer back to the command site's computer - saying (in a formatted binary message) "Hey, I have a target at ..." It may also include requests to engage, authority to engage, etc. The command node may be able to direct the sensor to alter sensitivity, sweep different search sectors, go into a mode incompatible with picking up low flying aircraft, etc.

If you could electronically get on that same comm net's frequency, and you understand the message formats in use... And I assume they'd be encrypted some how... But suppose you could break into this... Then you'd own the radar, the command node, etc. You could push the radar around like you owned it. You could inject false targets, or cancel the reports of the ones the radar is sending.

Heck, you probably don't even have to be able to decrypt the traffic. Suppose you just "step on" the traffic enough, at the right times, to get the command node to reject all tracking messages from the radar? The radar is dutifully reporting seeing new targets, but the command node never gets an un-garbled message... Hence they never see it, never command the radar to go from search to fire-control/engagement mode... You sail through with the radar watching you with little interest, but the *system* ignoring you...

This is all just theory. If, if that is what happened, they'll figure it out after debriefing the radar crews: "How come you didn't order us to engage the targets?" - "What targets? How come you didn't report any?"

So yeah, it was a risk revealing such a thing is possible (if in fact it is). But the real bite in the shorts is that there may be no good remediation for it. Or maybe they didn't sweat revealing this capability 'cause they have something else up their sleeve too? Or maybe the remediation for this is worse than the effect, or can be taken advantage of in some other way. It is a game of cat 'n mouse, and the advantage is generally with the attacker, since they control the pace and the engagement and the defense is well, on the defense, reacting to the attacker.

So basically, maybe they didn't hide their aircraft from the sensors, or jam the radars. Maybe they hid their aircraft from the system, and in-effect jammed the system...???

30 posted on 10/04/2007 9:15:45 PM PDT by CodeMasterPhilzar
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To: freeengineer

“Thats leveraging your market position.”

Capitalism in action. That would be proof we really did win the cold war.

It would not be so easy with China since some liberal traitor would sell them our technology. Or give it to them.


31 posted on 10/04/2007 9:17:35 PM PDT by JSteff (Reality= realizing you are not nearly important enough for the government to tap your phone.)
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To: james500
ormer US Air Force officials told Aviation Week's Senior Military Editor David A. Fulghum that Israel must have used "a technology like the US-developed 'Suter' airborne network attack system"

Maybe there's a simpler explanation.

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee..."

32 posted on 10/04/2007 9:20:23 PM PDT by Jim Noble (Trails of troubles, roads of battle, paths of victory we shall walk.)
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To: ken21
I keep wondering if there isn’t a smoke and mirrors trick going on here. They keep telling us about the F-15’s and the F-16’s and then they go on from there.
What if we slipped in a few F-22’s and did the nasty act and then slipped them back out.
The fact is that no one except for our two governments know exactly what aircraft carried out this operation.
I think these stories may me a huge misdirection. While we are pondering these stories the Ruskies and the rest of the rag head world knows that we can have them any place at anytime. You can bet their collective pants are full by now. Somehow we have become invisible and there is nothing they can do about it. Ain't it sweet!!!!!
33 posted on 10/04/2007 9:24:47 PM PDT by oldenuff2no (My dad ldft for Europe in)
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To: james500

I just hope the Chicoms dont figure out how we did it.


34 posted on 10/04/2007 9:50:37 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Rehavam Zeevi- HaShem Yikom Damo)
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To: james500

As I posted on the other thread about this article...

The thing I find curious is what is the Suter system. I can only find 3 references to it on the web. One is in this article. The second is from an article written by the same David Fulghum mentioned in the article on 25 Jan 06. And the 3rd is on a Hungarian blog on 30 Jan 06 which is almost word for word from the 25 Jan article (so it’s probably sourced from the earlier article).

I’m hoping that this is not a case where an “Air Force source” gave out some info to a reporter that he darn well should not have.


35 posted on 10/04/2007 9:57:09 PM PDT by CougarGA7
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To: oldenuff2no
"What if we slipped in a few F-22’s and did the nasty act and then slipped them back out."

The Syrian radar *did* track the F-15I's over Turkey, which is why the Israeli drop tanks were found so fast in that remote, rugged, rural terrain (because the drop tanks left a radar track to the ground).

It's that the Syrian systems didn't see the Israelis until *after* the IDF missiles were launched, and didn't hit any of the attackers even then, that makes a big deal.

That target was in deep Syria. Syria can't defend any of its airspace, clearly.

36 posted on 10/04/2007 10:06:44 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: CodeMasterPhilzar

Blinding the Syrian AD system is entirely feasible. Doesn’t have to be high tech to do it, either. Could be as simple as Mossad agents having the right phone numbers, right names, and right accents to get away with telling dispersed Syrian radar units to shut down for 5 minutes for a “maintenance check.”

The Syrians *did* track the F-15I’s from the attack point onward. That’s worth considering. That’s how the Syrians were able to recover the Israel F-15I drop tanks so quickly from such remote, rugged terrain in Turkey.

But the Syrians didn’t hit any of the Israeli aircraft, which means they failed to defend their airspace.


37 posted on 10/04/2007 10:13:26 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: CougarGA7

The danger in clearing the Suter program for release is that you tip off your opponents to begin researching their own such attack programs (eventually).

In the short term, once opponents figure out that the U.S. and Israel are doing RDP in the field, they pretty well have to choose to forego the use of computers (including inside smart weapons) in the military and banking sectors.

The longer that they leave them turned on, the longer that their own machines are spying on them.

Of course, turning them off sends their military programs back to pre-1960 levels of high-tech. As if a Korean-War-era Warsaw Pact military (sans nukes!) would be a meaningful threat to NATO today.

So leaking such programs would change the geopolitical playing field. The military option would be *out* for our foes if they learn that we can do RDP.

Frankly, I’m unsure that we can. There are significant technical hurdles to remote data placement...and the Israeli aircraft *were* spotted by the Syrian AD system (remember the drop tanks were tracked).


38 posted on 10/04/2007 10:20:34 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: james500

Just fly low where the radar does not cover.


39 posted on 10/05/2007 12:07:57 AM PDT by Wiz
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To: Wiz
Flying low only works in movies where you have control of the script.
These strikes were a long ways from the border. They didn’t see anything coming and they didn’t see where they went after they fired on their targets. They were deaf dumb and blind.
The air defense units are the best the Russians have. Iran depends on the same hardware for defense.
We don’t know the whole story and maybe we never will. What ever happened put the rest of the middle east on notice that we rule the air and they can’t even see us. I'll bet the Russians are really ticked off. We just drove down the price of their missile systems.
40 posted on 10/05/2007 12:34:50 AM PDT by oldenuff2no (My dad ldft for Europe in)
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To: UCANSEE2
i.e. They fed it a virus.

Sounds more like the equivalent of saying 'look over there!' an pointing away from the incoming fighters. Feed the systems false data so the movable radar systems are all looking the wrong way at the right time.
41 posted on 10/05/2007 7:06:35 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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