Posted on 12/06/2007 9:41:16 AM PST by NYer
CHICAGO (Reuters) - The U.S. Episcopal Church faces major tumult this week when an entire California diocese with more than 9,000 members decides whether to secede in an unprecedented protest over gay issues.
The Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin, based in Fresno and consisting of nearly 50 churches in 14 counties, would be the first diocese to bolt from the U.S. branch of the 77-million-member global Anglican Communion if Saturday's final vote passes.
The U.S. church and Anglicanism generally have been in upheaval since 2003 when the Episcopal Church consecrated Gene Robinson of New Hampshire as the first bishop known to be in an openly gay relationship in more than four centuries of church history.
Dissent over that as well as the blessing of same-sex unions practiced in some congregations has caused a number of defections by traditionalists in the U.S. church.
The 2.4 million-member U.S. church says that out of 7,600 congregations 32 have left, meaning that a majority of members of those congregations have departed and the churches are now considered closed. Another 23 have voted to leave, meaning that significant number of members have said they want to leave.
None of the church's 110 dioceses, however, has taken the final step to depart so far. Dioceses in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and Fort Worth, Texas, have also taken preliminary votes to leave, but their final decisions are a year away.
Bishop John-David Schofield, head of the San Joaquin Diocese, says leaving the U.S. church is "a sensible way forward" and one that could later be reversed if "circumstances change and the Episcopal Church repents."
In the meantime his diocese has received what he calls a "welcome" invitation to realign itself, should the vote be affirmative, with the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of South America headed by conservative Archbishop Gregory Venables of Argentina.
That, he said, will allow members to remain part of the global Anglican church.
'REMAIN EPISCOPAL'
A year ago the San Joaquin Diocese's preliminary vote to leave the Episcopal Church was overwhelming. The process requires two votes year apart.
But a secession would not be unanimous. An organization called "Remain Episcopal" is opposing it and says its members will remain in place as the duly recognized Episcopal Church even if the bishop, some clergy and other congregants leave.
Katharine Jefferts Schori, presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, urged Schofield in a letter earlier this week not to pull his flock out, saying "the church will never change if dissenters withdraw from the table."
She also made it clear what would happen if he did: A process that could eventually allow her to "depose" the bishop, declare the diocese vacant and allow those who want to remain to form a new church leadership.
The Episcopal Church also says it has control over all property and once a congregation leaves it has to find another place to worship. That contention has been challenged in several court cases, including one in Virginia where property dating back to Colonial times and worth millions of dollars is in dispute.
A spokeswoman for the San Joaquin Diocese said the property issue had yet to be addressed. (Editing by Andrew Stern and Jackie Frank)
Ping!
Hey, does this hat make my butt look big?
What is so noticeable is that there are no religious markings on his “vestments” anywhere.
Good catch.
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me....
Never play chess with an Episcopalian because they can’t tell a bishop from a queen. Anglicans are OK, though. I loved this lady bishop’s notion that the church will never change if these people leave. How dumb is she?
is that a staff in your hand, or are you just happy to see me?
Defections indicate DEFECTS.........
Wow, I didn't notice.
Good to see that there are good Californians who will stand against this abomination that is the modern, liberal Episcopal Church.
That smug grin is really annoying.
Yes there are. They are emblematic of New Age pagan nature worship, which is infesting every leftist church in the nation, as planned.
Is that Big Bird on his hat?
Looks like a “happy homo” doesn’t he?
As the cliche goes, I did not leave the Epsicopal Church, the Epsicopal Church left me.
It’s becoming more and more difficult to remain a member of the Epsicopal Church. Not sure how much longer I can stay.
All he needs now is one of those tiny little motorcycles and he could ride around with the Shriners in parades.
The fact that's it's even taken this long to make this decision to defect is ludicrous.
Now that’s funny...
In addition to the crozier on the mitre, I think the clasps on the cope are Celtic crosses. Episcopal Church used to be a redundancy. Now it's an oxymoron.
It's very pleasant here, and the priests and people believe God's word and don't try to rewrite the Bible to suit themselves.
Let’s not forget the “Frisbyterians”. They believe that when you die, your soul lands up on a roof and you can’t get it back.
Katharine Jefferts Schori, presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, urged Schofield in a letter earlier this week not to pull his flock out, saying “the church will never change if dissenters withdraw from the table.”
As with all institutions that no longer act in the interest of the majority of their constituents (e.g., Congress, General Motors, National church leaderships — Episcopals, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists), you cannot change these groups from within. Shun them at the very least, fight them in court, and in the end, walk away and take your money with you. You may lose your church building and property, but so what. To stay for those kind of reasons would make Jesus pitch a hissy if he were here. What is most reprehensible about people like Ms. Schori and that dingbat Archbishop of Canterbury, they believe that the Bible, like our Constitution, is a living breathing document that changes with the times. The more things change the more they stay the same, however. The Bishop of New Hampshire did not invent his Gay Pagan lifestyle posing under the protection of liberal Christian openness to “you can do no wrong because nothing is ever wrong.” He should have been ineligible for his post simply based on his action of divorcing his wife and leaving his family. That would be totally Biblical and fulfilling the definition of what a Church leader is NOT. Does this mean we want Gays barred from joining churches? Absolutely not. I am simply talking about Church leaders, and they are a dismal lot at the National level. Everyone in such a compromised church should grow a pair and WALK!
So far 8 parishes in the Episcopal Diocese of San Diego have left and joined the Anglican Communion
We're members of a messianic Jewish congregation and are learning a LOT. The new covenant looks very different from a Jewish perspective. It brings the whole Bible alive and shows God's consistency from the Beginning.
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.
FReepmail Huber or sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (sometimes 3-9 pings/day).
This list is pinged by Huber and sionnsar.
Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com
Humor: The Anglican Blue
Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15
Just give it a rest....don’t you have a vacation to take or something. I don’t come around your threads dumping on the failings of your church, kindly let us work out our own issues and you can work out yours.
Well, technically, all these divisions (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) are man-made. We are all part of the Body of Christ, and failings in one area can affect others.
That said, RCs trying to entice Anglicans to cross the Tiber is a bit of a cheap shot.
Love the outfit!
I’m going to stay.
I’m pretty sure the Episcopal church is the only one that would have me that I would be comfortable in.
But if my (conservative) diocese moves to another oversight, I would be just as happy, although my own parish is fairly liberal.
(It’s the Dallas diocese)
At least he has something fabulous to wear.
bump
How about that? Good catch. I’m reading ‘Hostage to the Devil’ by Malachi Martin, who was the official Exorcist to the Vatican.
It’s a book about five accounts of exorcism in the US. One of the possessed was a Catholic Priest. He’s slow omission of reference, or slight changes to the Catholic Mass, was one of the things that tipped parishoners off that something was wrong.
The priest was successfully exorcised.
In reality, anything but happy. He's been in two alcohol detox programs since his 2003 investiture.
I talked with someone who knows him personally (an unexamined-life liberal, who's all for homosexual clergy) and she said he was a really nice guy, great with people and an able adminstrator. That makes it all the sadder that someone with such abilities could be so totally misled, and actually, perverted...in life, and gospel.
We should actually pray for him, that God would hammer him until he repents--perhaps Robinson's alcoholism shows God is.
The fact is, the vast majority of Christian Episcopalians have been abandoned, if not actively persecuted by their Bishops. If one doesn’t live in an area served by one of the 4 shepherds, and the local parish won’t stand up to the Bishop, then faithful believers need to consider all of their options.
Well, this is a horse of a different color. If I’m not mistaken, the National church doesn’t have much authority over the dioceses. As in the Catholic Church, the bish is lord of his domain. While I can see a diocese making the argument that they have say over whether a given parish gets to keep property when they leave, I’m not at all sure the national church can make the same claim. In fact I’m pretty sure they don’t have a leg to stand on. The bishop has a claim because when the wymynpriests were first foisted on the faithful they made the parishes sign over the deeds to the dioceses. But the natchrch is just like a board of directors with the presbish as CEO — I don’t think they have any property in their own right.
There are a number of options. The Continuing churches, AMiA, and CANA; LCMS or RC for high church folks, PCA for low church folks.
I was a sixth-generation Episcopalian - my gggg grandfather John Bale was baptized in 1795 at St. Gile's Cripplegate, where Milton is buried and Cromwell was married. If your folks have been Piskie that long I would be VERY surprised.
We were among those who endured the new Prayer Book (and all its temporary purple, blue, yellow and chartreuse predecessors), goofy New Age preachers, Biblical revisionism and then the whole Vicki Gene controversy and all its fallout. We fought until it was clear it was pointless, when the new bishop was one of the delegates to go soft-soap Lambeth and our rector retired and the vestry couldn't find a replacement that hadn't been infected with the Zeitgeist (the national church controls the seminaries and will not ordain anyone who doesn't toe the party line.)
At that point it was clear that the church my family had attended for six generations was dead and rotten.
The rector of our new Catholic parish was kind, sympathetic and welcoming, and gave a big block of time out of his busy day (he has 2,000 families in his church) to talk with a couple of renegade high church Anglicans. We were pleased to find that in matters of doctrine and practice there was very little difference, much less than we had expected and nothing that could not be dealt with honestly.
I simply offer that possible path to anyone who has finally reached the point of separation that we reached in August 2003.
As I have mentioned to somebody before, we were sitting mourning beside a dead body when Mother Church was standing patiently smiling behind us all the time.
What sort of person would I be if I did not at least point out to you the path that has brought us out of all that shouting and threats and bullying and hateful controversy, into light and peace?
We indeed were abandoned both by our bishop and our new rector.
When the rector opined during a sermon that anybody who didn't support Robinson 100% was not just wrong but evil, we left and never went back.
“Never play chess with an Episcopalian because they can’t tell a bishop from a queen.”
Aaaargh! Was that really necessary? You made me spill my carefully mixed martini (stirred, not shaken) all over myself.
Out of curiosity, why? Why not entice back?
Just remember AmericanMother, many (many) can give a similar testimony of stepping out into another church/denomination from the ‘piskies, with the same welcoming and loving attitude. I attend a church body in a MUCH less than ideal setting (chairs in a YMCA gym) that’s as peaceful and Christlike as it gets—a congregation of the Anglican Mission in America. I wish we had a little building at least, and I wish they did classical music, and had more regard for liturgy, but, they don’t, and...it’s still a great fellowship. The gospel is faithfully preached every Sunday, and the Eucharist faithfully offered.
There are many paths within Christ’s earthly-separated (only) body where Episcopalians can find shelter from the deathly pall of their denomination. Those of us who’ve gone-evangelical, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran or other Christian body, should not despise each other—but recognize those who love Christ from all over the Christian map.
After all, if somebody doesn't believe in what they're doing, why bother to leave the Episcopal church in the first place? You can "not believe" just as well right there (and have good music, vestments and architecture, but . . . ichabod.)
In many ways the ELCA is more liberal that the ECA. The same things are happening in both groups but the ELCA is just taking it without complaint. While I have differences of theology opinion with the ECA, I have nothing but respect for those who have been members for generations taking this tough stand.
One thing I have learned since leaving the ELCA is that no church is perfect and being loyal to a demonimation is not necessarily healthy. Most conservative protestant groups have local congregations that have unique beliefs, ie they are more independent in their practices.
I have since leaving ELCA, spent most of my time in a Baptist church (GARBC). We moved to PA a few years ago and attend a E-Free church. I will probably join them.
Good luck in your decisions, May The Lord guide you as he promises.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.