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The Bishop of Rochester Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, one of just two bishops in the Church of England to boycott the Lambeth Conference entirely, insisted today that he is being true to biblical authority. Explaining a decision that he admits has been painful for a man who sought refuge in Britain from persecution, and who has been at the heart of the two previous convocations at Canterbury – first as Coordinator in 1988 and then as a Member of the Steering Committee in 1998 - he said it was a matter of ‘conscience and logic’. He said that ‘persistent false teaching’...

History's humongous wheel turns and turns and turns again. Over time, mud and sludge accumulate on even the sprucest institutions. Take the 500-year-old Anglican family of churches, Christianity's third-largest, after Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy. With Anglicanism's biggest family event under way - the every-10-years gathering of bishops and archbishops in England - what the world sees, accurately or not, is a family in moral and spiritual disarray. --snip--For all that, Anglicanism's public troubles proceed from the takeover of Western Anglicanism by theological activists whose purpose is the remolding of Christianity into something less like the old-time religion than like the...

We are not contending against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Eph 6:12). “This combat rages fiercely even today, aided and abetted by well-known secret sects, Satanic groups and New Age movements, to mention but a few, and reveals many ugly heads of the hideous anti-God monster: among them are notoriously secularism, which seeks to build a Godless society; spiritual indifference, which is insensitive to transcendental values; and relativism, which is contrary to the permanent tenets of the Gospel. “All...

The Archbishop of the Episcopal Church of the Sudan today declared that Gene Robinson, the openly gay Bishop of New Hampshire, "should resign for the sake of the church." In a press conference at the decennial Lambeth Conference, the Most Rev. Dr. Daniel Deng Bul said that homosexual ordination "is not what is found in the Bible" and that it is "not the norm of the Anglican world."

A Statement from the Virginia Annual Council of the United Methodist Church July 11, 2008 On June 27, 2008, the Circuit Court of Fairfax County declared constitutional—as applied to the case before it—a Virginia statute which gives ownership of church property to breakaway congregations of a church denomination, which for years had held the property in trust for the purpose of worship within the denomination, according to denominational doctrine. The statute, known as the “Division Statute,” was enacted by the Virginia legislature only a few years after the end of the Civil War, and was used then as a vehicle...

The gay bishop of New Hampshire should resign in order to save the Anglican Communion, a senior African archbishop said today. The call came from the Rt Rev Dr Daniel Deng, the archbishop of Sudan, and followed a strongly worded statement that accused the US Episcopal church of exposing Anglicans to ridicule and damaging their credibility in a multi-religious environment. African bishops who signed the statement rejecting homosexual practice said they could not accept it as part of their church. They reiterated their opposition to developments in the US and Canada, where gay clergy are ordained and where same-sex relationships...

July 2008 In view of the present tensions and divisions within the Anglican Communion, and out of deep concern for the unity of the Church, we consider it important to express clearly the position of the Episcopal Church of the Sudan (ECS) concerning human sexuality. We believe that God created humankind in his own image; male and female he created them for the continuation of humankind on earth. Women and men were created as God’s agents and stewards on earth We believe that human sexuality is God’s gift to human beings which is rightly ordered only when expressed within the...

It's about a hundred degrees and getting hotter in the Big Top at Lambeth but the £1 million black hole in the budget at the Lambeth Conference means they can't afford air conditioning. Expect fainting bishops to be ferried out by ambulances any moment now, if they don't start shooting each other first. The press conference this morning was a farce. Communications officers declined to comment on who is here for reasons of 'security' but declined to say what the 'security' issues were. Apparently there are some Nigerian bishops at the conference but we are not allowed to know who...

Dr. James Innell Packer, a noted Canadian theologian, author and a Board of Governors Professor of Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, as well as an executive editor of Christianity Today, recently addressed the contentious problem of homosexuality and same-sex unions in the Anglican church. The Anglican Church has come to a cross-roads because of the issue of same-sex "marriage," with a massive split in the Global Communion looking increasingly inevitable. Dr. Packer opened his remarks with a statement explaining why this issue is of such great importance in the Anglican Church today. "In brief," he said, "because it involves...

A leading Anglican bishop has condemned conservatives as "demonic" for using his church as a punch bag. The Bishop of Washington, the Right Rev John Chane, a leading liberal in the Episcopal Church in the United States, accused conservatives of leading the church in a "dangerous" direction. *** "I think it's really very, very dangerous and I think it's demonic ... the Episcopal Church has been demonised. It has been a punching bag and I'm sick of being a punching bag as a Bishop and I'm sick of my church, my province being a punching bag.

It hasn’t taken that many days to realize that the once-every-ten-years Lambeth Conference is again abundant in elaborate rhetoric. Last night’s sermon by the Bishop of Colombo, the Rt. Rev. Duleep de Chickera is a good example. We heard from the bishop that the Anglican problem is very simple, "The church is called to be an inclusive communion,” de Chickera stated, “where there is space equally for everyone and anyone, regardless of color, gender, sexual orientation, ability. Unity in diversity is a cherished Anglican tradition, a spirituality which we must reinforce in all humility for the sake of Christ and...

As many of the Bishops of the Anglican Communion meet at their Lambeth conference, Christians throughout the world pray and watch with deep concern. The global Anglican communion and its American expression, the Episcopal Church, has been beset with division arising concerning fundamental doctrinal issues which, to orthodox Christians whether they are Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, derive from the very heart of the Christian revelation. The late Servant of God, Pope John Paul II responded to the growing requests from priests, deacons and the lay faithful of the Anglican Communion, and its expression in the United States the Episcopal Church....

According to a friend, among the Anglicans now considering a corporate leap to Rome is a group of religious sisters called the All Saints Sisters of the Poor, who are located near Catonsville, Mayland about 10 miles from Baltimore.Their website introduction is refreshingly simple and straightforward:All Saints is a traditional Community desiring to uphold orthodox Christian faith and morality and to support the Apostolic tradition in ministry and practice. We are united by our common commitment to the One Lord Jesus Christ, and by the desire to live for Him. With that unity, and made possible by it, there...

Knife crime is at epidemic proportions in Britain's inner cities, with an attack of some kind taking place every four minutes. In London alone 21 young people have been stabbed to death this year. A church group has come up with a new solution. It's reported here. The suggestion is that church leaders should move into crime ridden inner city areas to work with the youths and become role models since most of the boys who stab each other don't have Dads. Whoops! problem is, since women's ordination the Anglican Church has been turned into a matriarchy remember? Nearly half...

CANTERBURY, ENGLAND — A quarter of the world's Anglican bishops boycotted a once-in-a-decade gathering of church leaders yesterday in a row over gay clergy. Church officials said that 230 of the 880 bishops in the Anglican worldwide communion were staying away from the Lambeth conference, being staged in the English cathedral city of Canterbury, spiritual home of the deeply divided church. Bishops from Nigeria, Kenya and Uganda, who boast some of the fastest-expanding congregations in the Anglican Church, were among those who pledged to snub the conference. Liberal and conservative clergy have been brought to the brink of schism over...

Steenson as an Anglican BishopFormer Anglican Bishop Jeffrey Steenson is widely revered among Anglicans as a man of profound integrity and service in the Lord’s vineyard. Last week he spoke at the Anglican Use Conference. He spoke with his usual clarity and Anglican eloquence. Welcome home, Jeffery.His full address can be found here.It all begins with the conviction that the Catholic Church simply is. She is not one option amongst many. People who become alienated from their own churches will sometimes think that the next step is to go down to the marketplace and see what is on offer:...

The Catholic Church will expand its provision of "Anglican Use" parishes in the United States in order to allow whole communities of traditionalist Anglicans into the Roman fold, a senior Catholic archbishop has announced.Rev John J Myers, Archbishop of Newark and Ecclesiastical Delegate for the Pastoral Provision, told a conference of ex-Anglicans on Friday that "we are working on expanding the mandate of the Pastoral Provision [of Catholic parishes using Anglican-inspired services] to include those clergy and faithful of 'continuing Anglican communities'."We are striving to increase awareness of our apostolate to Anglican Christians who desire to be reconciled with the...

Tonight the London Literature Festival at the Southbank Centre featured the UK premier of For The Bible Tells Me So, “a provocative documentary about the chasm that separates gay life and Christianity today,” produced by Dan Karslake. It was followed by a conversation and Q&A with the Rt. Rev. Gene Robinson and Sir Ian McKellen, Shakespearean actor and star of The Lord of the Rings. The evening started with a beautiful bass voice giving the standard instructions for everyone to turn off their cell phones and pagers. Turns out it was Sir Ian, who arrived on stage a few minutes...

LONDON - The first openly homosexual U.S. Episcopal bishop was barred from a once-a-decade Anglican meeting so he wouldn't become a focus of the global event. Anglicans on all sides of the issue agree: The strategy has backfired. New Hampshire Bishop Gene Robinson has been embraced by sympathetic Anglicans in England and Scotland who view his exclusion as an affront to their Christian beliefs. Robinson plans several appearances on the outskirts of the Lambeth Conference to be what he called a "constant and friendly" reminder of homosexuals in the church. "I'm just not willing to let the bishops meet and...

Thanks to a reader for the tip. As you may recall, some months ago in Minneapolis, St. Paul Archdiocese, A Faithful Rebel exposed the proposed lecture of Carol Curoe, an active lesbian who was scheduled to speak at a Catholic parish in Minneapolis. Now, as if the radicals hadn't learned the lesson then, when the Archdiocese had to very wisely intervene and suggest that the venue be moved, now they are aiming at stirring up a little more scandal. They have invited a female Anglican "priestess" and supporter of homosexual unions to lead Catholics in "Centering prayer and inner awakening",...

Andrew Carey Walking on Broken Glass Tuesday, July 8, 2008 • 1:46 pm Let's make no mistake about it, Monday's night Synod opens up the possibility of a very serious exodus from the Church of England. The loss of large numbers of Catholics will not leave us with a 'Reformed' church, a mouthwatering prospect for earlier generations of evangelicals, but will leave us with yet another liberal protestant denomination. A new beginning? What should have been a joyous new beginning for women's ministry at General Synod on Monday, has been spoiled. Most women I know will not welcome the fact...

Roman Catholic liberals and their Anglican allies are directing a campaign of propaganda at Anglo-Catholics, telling them that "Rome" does not want them to convert en masse following the vote for women bishops. This is a lie. According to Ruth Gledhill, "an extremely well-connected Roman Catholic friend" reckons that former Anglicans are "the last thing we need" and that the Vatican will not upset liberal Catholic parishes or its relations with Rowan Williams by making special arrangements for them. Alas, Ruth seems to have been taken in by this untruth. In fact, her friend - whom I do not doubt...

The intrepid Andrea Tornielli, vaticanista of Il Giornale, and now travelling with His Holiness to World Youth Day, reports on his blog what Pope Benedict said about the Anglicans, whose communion is imploding. My translation and emphases: ---------- Benedict XVI is "near" to the Anglican bishops in prayer, and hopes that they can avoid "new fractures" and schisms, after the contested decision of the Church of England, bulwark of Anglican tradition, to admit women to the episcopate. During the long flight taking him to Sydney, where he will arrive this morning for the 23rd World Youth Day, Papa Ratzinger met...

The Most Reverend Mark Haverland, Archbishop and Acting Primate of the Anglican Catholic Church, has released the following statement regarding the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON), which was held in Jerusalem from June 22-29, 2008. A number of self-described traditional Anglicans from around the globe, including many bishops and archbishops from the "global South" bodies of the official Anglican Communion, recently met in Jerusalem at a meeting called GAFCON. This meeting was called largely in response to the refusal of the Episcopal Church in the U.S. and of the Anglican Church of Canada to heed earlier calls to rein in...

The Fellowship of St Gregory the Great is the provisional title of the organisation of ex-Anglican clergy who plan to stay with their flocks once they become Roman Catholics. The Anglicans, led by the "flying" bishops of Ebbsfleet and Richborough, are hoping that Rome will give the new body formal recognition - possibly as an "apostolic administration" supervised by a senior Catholic bishop. I've written an article in the Catholic Herald outlining what the Vatican may be prepared to offer Bishop Andrew Burnham and his colleagues, for whom it has the highest regard. I'm pretty sure that parishes will be...

LONDON, JULY 9, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Since the Church of England will now allow women bishops, one of its prelates is looking for "magnanimous gestures" from Benedict XVI to facilitate the entrance of Anglicans into the Catholic Church. In a letter to be published in this week's edition of Britain's Catholic Herald newspaper, Anglican Bishop Andrew Burnham of Ebbsfleet said "traditional Anglo-Catholics" now face the decision of staying in the Church of England in "what, for a while, will be a protected colony -- where the sacramental ministry of women bishops and priests is neither acknowledged nor received -- or to...

I have until now refrained from commenting on the turmoil affecting the Church of England, on the grounds that I am not an Anglican and therefore it is none of my business. As a Catholic, I have routinely been disgusted throughout the four decades since the Second Vatican Catastrophe by the propensity of outsiders - encouraged by the bogus ecumenical movement - to harangue the Holy Roman Church about its doctrine, practices and liturgy and to offer impertinent prescriptions for change. Now, however, the Anglican contagion is invading the Catholic Church and that is quite another matter. The news that Anglican bishops have...

In 1994 I was an Anglican priest on the Isle of Wight. I had a wife and two young children. We lived in a beautiful Victorian vicarage in the country. I had two beautiful Norman churches to look after. (Brading Church pictured above) My church was growing. My congregation were loving and kind. I wanted to stay there forever. Then the Church of England pulled the rug out from under me, and I began to plan a big adventure: swimming the Tiber. Here's some advice for Anglican priests who are now in the situation I was in then. If you're...

The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt Rev Andrew Burnham, is to lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Herald will reveal this week. Bishop Burnham, one of two "flying bishops" in the province of Canterbury, has made a statement asking Pope Benedict XVI and the English Catholic bishops for "magnanimous gestures" that will allow traditionalists to become Catholics en masse. He is confident that this will happen, following talks in Rome with Cardinal Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Cardinal Kasper, the Vatican's head of...

The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt Rev Andrew Burnham, is to lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Herald will reveal this week. Bishop Burnham, one of two "flying bishops" in the province of Canterbury, has made a statement asking Pope Benedict XVI and the English Catholic bishops for "magnanimous gestures" that will allow traditionalists to become Catholics en masse. He is confident that this will happen, following talks in Rome with Cardinal Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Cardinal Kasper, the Vatican's head of...

(8 July 08 - RV) The Vatican Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity issued a Statement Tuesday regarding recent events within the Anglican Communion. The Council is headed by Cardinal Walter Kasper. The statement reads: “We have regretfully learned of the Church of England vote to pave the way for the introduction of legislation which will lead to the ordaining of women to the Episcopacy. The Catholic position on the issue was clearly expressed by Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Such a decision signifies a breaking away from the apostolic tradition maintained by all of the Churches...

Make no mistake, the Anglo-Catholics were done over at the General Synod in York in the debate over women bishops. This being the Church of England, their humiliation was accompanied by lots of hand-wringing, a good deal of guilt and a late attempt to stop the beating entirely, when the Bishop of Durham intervened like a worried boxing referee. The Synod was fraught and emotional But it was bloody just the same. After nearly eight hours, all that the Catholic Conscience had to show for its pains was a motion that now indicates that it is the wish of a...

(8 July 08 - RV) The Vatican Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity issued a Statement Tuesday regarding recent events within the Anglican Communion. The Council is headed by Cardinal Walter Kasper. The statement reads: “We have regretfully learned of the Church of England vote to pave the way for the introduction of legislation which will lead to the ordaining of women to the Episcopacy. The Catholic position on the issue was clearly expressed by Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Such a decision signifies a breaking away from the apostolic tradition maintained by all of the Churches...

Church of England General Synod to touch off an exodus by approving women bishops YORK, England - "There can be no future for Christianity in Europe without Rome," an Anglican bishop told the Sunday Telegraph this weekend, after it was revealed that a group of "senior" bishops from the Church of England has been in secret negotiations with the highest levels of the Vatican to discuss the current crisis in Anglicanism over the acceptance of homosexuality and female bishops. Bishops from both the Church of England's "evangelical" or protestant and "high" or "Catholic" wings are said to have been involved...

I have until now refrained from commenting on the turmoil affecting the Church of England, on the grounds that I am not an Anglican and therefore it is none of my business. As a Catholic, I have routinely been disgusted throughout the four decades since the Second Vatican Catastrophe by the propensity of outsiders - encouraged by the bogus ecumenical movement - to harangue the Holy Roman Church about its doctrine, practices and liturgy and to offer impertinent prescriptions for change. Now, however, the Anglican contagion is invading the Catholic Church and that is quite another matter. The news that...

It has become a cliché to say that the Church of England is in a mess. But a new chapter of messiness began just recently with the “marriage� of two Anglican clergymen in a festive ceremony in St Bartholomew’s church in London. One of the men is a doctor at the nearby famous St Bartholomew’s Hospital. The wedding – in grand style, with music and flowers and “Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today…� and vows and bouquets – received widespread publicity.  At no time among any Christians at any stage since Christ himself walked this earth – or...

he London Telegraph learned on Saturday evening that some senior conservative Church of England bishops have been in Rome holding secret meetings with members of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. The Telegraph knows the identities of the bishops but has agreed to hold them in anonymity. Following the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) in Jerusalem and with the Lambeth Conference soon to be held, the content of the talks is assumed to be focused on the departures from orthodox Christianity within the Anglican Communion. Right now the Church of England is holding its General Synod where women’s...

Senior Church of England bishops have held secret talks with Vatican officials to discuss the crisis in the Anglican communion over gays and women bishops. They met senior advisers of the Pope in an attempt to build closer ties with the Roman Catholic Church, The Telegraph learnt. Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was not told of the talks and the disclosure will be a fresh blow to his efforts to prevent a major split in the Church of England. In highly confidential discussions, a group of conservative bishops expressed their dismay at the liberal direction of the Church...

Almost exactly five years after he was elected as the Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire, Gene Robinson remains the most controversial Christian in the world. His consecration as the first openly gay, partnered Anglican bishop launched a global conversation about sexuality in Christianity and divided the Anglican Communion, the largest Protestant body in the world with 77 million members. Yet what he is doing now may be more radical: Robinson is traveling the country and the world to talk more openly and more publicly than ever about his faith. "The principal identity that I have is as a follower of...

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, I am writing you on the last day of the GAFCON, or Global Anglican Future Conference in Jerusalem. It has been a long week since I arrived, with the bulk of my time spent in our hotel, working with the other delegates on a statement that will provide the groundwork for a new, biblically orthodox, mission-focused, global Anglican movement. Although I did not go on any tours, I was able to pray at various sites in Jerusalem, including the Church of the Holy Sepulcher (Calvary), the Church of All Nations (Gethsemane) and the Western...

The Archbishop of Canterbury has rounded on rebel Anglicans seeking to bypass his authority over issues such as homosexuality and women priests. Dr Rowan Williams adopted unusually forthright language to accuse the hardline traditionalists of lacking legitimacy One of his staff even suggested the rebels were becoming a "Protestant sect". The Archbishop's comments follow the creation at the weekend of the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans (Foca), a global network for millions of Anglicans unhappy at the ordination of the openly homosexual Bishop of New Hampshire, Gene Robinson. Dr Williams called for patience from those who want to create an...

The Bishop of Manchester, the Right Reverend Nigel McCulloch, has ordained his wife at Manchester Cathedral. Celia McCulloch is to serve as a full-time stipendiary curate in the parish of Cheetham, north Manchester. She was one of 44 people who were ordained this weekend in three services held in the Diocese of Manchester. "The day of ordination represents the end of one part of a journey and the start of another," Bishop McCulloch said. "It is an honour for a bishop, and in my case a special honour for a husband, to be part of that journey. "I hope the...

Believing that God has called them to a "new work", Primates at the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) announced tonight that they have launched a movement of Confessing Anglicans that will, in effect, be a rival Anglican Communion. Tomorrow, when orthodox Anglicans meet for their final day of pilgrimage, 1,200 representatives including 303 bishops of the Anglican Communion representing more than 70% of the Communion, will announce the formation of a new Anglican body that will affirm "'the faith once for all delivered to the saints"' as a bulwark against the growing and rampant liberalism in the mostly Western church....

A dying newspaper industry views a Christian denomination that's growing, and breaking away from its colonial masters, and disapproves. The NY Times is in critical condition and may soon be on life support, but as part of it's death struggle it has time to view an anti-colonial development with disdain. JERUSALEM — Anglican conservatives, frustrated by the continuing stalemate over homosexuality in the Anglican Communion, declared Sunday that they would defy historic lines of authority and create a new power bloc within the communion led by a council predominantly of African archbishops. The announcement came at the close of an...

Can we uphold the 39 Articles and still include Charismatics and Anglocatholics in Communion? On anglocatholics (if you mean theological anglocatholics as opposed to those who simply like high-church liturgy), see the comparison above between the Affirmation and the Declaration on the 39 Articles. For anglocatholics, the 39 Articles (which were never “normative” or “confessional” for any jurisdiction except the CoE) have both historical value and theological merit, but that merit is subject to the correction and interpretation of Scripture, the Creeds, the seven Ecumenical Councils, and the consensus of patristic tradition. The Declaration, by contrast, appears to make the...

Over at A Conservative Blog for Peace, an interesting discussion has been in process. Namely, on the recent phenomena of the Orthodox “Western Rite“. The combox discussion can be found here.The Western Rite Orthodox concept has been around for about 100 years. Not to be confused with the Eastern notion that the west “used to be� Orthodox prior to 1054 (but no longer is) when I speak of WRO, I mean to discuss the movement to create parishes worshipping according to traditional western styles under Eastern Orthodox bishops. Like Eastern Catholics who are Easterners in communion with the Roman...

STATEMENT ON THE GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE Praise the LORD! It is good to sing praises to our God; for he is gracious, and a song of praise is fitting. The LORD builds up Jerusalem; he gathers the outcasts of Israel. (Psalm 147:1-2) Brothers and Sisters in Christ: We, the participants in the Global Anglican Future Conference, send you greetings from Jerusalem! Introduction The Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON), which was held in Jerusalem from 22-29 June 2008, is a spiritual movement to preserve and promote the truth and power of the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ as we Anglicans...

The Anglican Church faces what is in effect a schism this weekend after the declaration last night of conservative evangelicals to create a “church within a church”. The new body, called the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans, will have its own bishops, clergy and theological colleges. Details of the fellowship were announced in Jerusalem last night at a summit of conservative Anglicans, It follows a protracted battle within the church over gay clergy. Many evangelicals were outraged when it was revealed this month that the civil partnership of two gay priests had been blessed in a London church with a traditional...

STATEMENT ON THE GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE Praise the LORD! It is good to sing praises to our God; for he is gracious, and a song of praise is fitting. The LORD builds up Jerusalem; he gathers the outcasts of Israel. (Psalm 147:1-2) Brothers and Sisters in Christ: We, the participants in the Global Anglican Future Conference, send you greetings from Jerusalem! Introduction The Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON), which was held in Jerusalem from 22-29 June 2008, is a spiritual movement to preserve and promote the truth and power of the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ as we Anglicans...

Just minutes ago, conservative Anglicans announced what they are calling “The Jerusalem Declaration,” which states their intention to erect a new “fellowship of confessing Anglicans.” "We grieve for the spiritual decline in the most economically developed nations, where the forces of militant secularism and pluralism are eating away the fabric of society and churches are compromised and enfeebled in their witness…Sadly, this crisis has torn the fabric of the Communion in such a way that it cannot simply be patched back together."... The declaration is the unanimous product of the bishops and archbishops meeting here in Jerusalem, whose dioceses together...