Posted on 12/20/2007 5:43:47 AM PST by Oshkalaboomboom
“...Do you have a source for that 55 AD date for the writing of Mark’s Gospel?”
Do my undergraduate notes count? Actually the scholarship involved in dating the Gospels is interesting but shaky. Nero became Emperor in 54AD and some have placed Mark’s Gospel in the early Nero era. Others have assigned all the Gospels a late date based upon the cynical view that Jesus did not predict the destruction of the Temple but had the words put in his mouth by the Gospel writers after the fact (70 AD). But as you pointed out those educated men who traveled the Mediterranean World and who had seen the Christ were still alive after the Gospels had been put on paper and shared widely.
Thanks for the link...
I agree that the date of conception or the actual birth date was never established to be a day of required worship.
What I have discovered in my short tenure in this flesh body is that all manner of human beings have taken onto themselves to declare what is Written or what is meant by what is Written.
My comments all have been about to the literal Words penned and literally what information is given. I will leave up to the Maker as to who believes what and when and He and He alone will be the judge.
Merry Christmas!!!
Excellent!
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The way the Episcopal Church is going, it will be nothing but a legend soon.
The details, while fragmentary, add up.
The bible doesn't say Jesus was born in December, so I wasn't refering to that.
There has been a lot of argument that the gospels were written much earlier. I tend to believe this. The various arguments I’ve read make a lot of sense to me, and I know liberal theologians love to date things later to help them explain away some of the power of the predictions. Earlier dating also explains the meaning of certain verses better.
For instance, Acts is considered a continuation of Luke, and Paul was still alive at the end of Acts, and we know he died about the year 64. So Luke must be earlier than that.
Although there isn’t a month that hasn’t yet been assigned as the birthmonth of Jesus, there are actually a few ‘signs’ which point to December 25th as the actual birthdate of our Lord.
1. Zachary is believed to have been serving in the Temple in the month of October (due to many varied calculations of Temple service) when he met the Archangel Gabriel who told of the coming of his son, John the Baptist. After a few days, Elizabeth, his wife, conceived and she hid herself for five months.
In the sixth month, Mary is told of the coming of Jesus and she goes to her cousin, Elizabeth, who is heavy with child and stays with her for three months. Six months after October is March... Nine months after March is December.
2. The earliest Church didn’t universally celebrate Christ’s birthdate. They did, however, celebrate the Epiphany with nearly a universal devotion—generally on Jan 6th. How could they all know this date? The Wise Men likely were wise enough to take a journal of their journey. We, therefore, know that they visited the Child on the “13th day after the winter solstice.” Whether that was immediately after the birth or two years later will have to remain speculation.
3. There was a strong belief that prophets and the great men of old generally died on the anniversary of their own conception. We know that Jesus died on the celebration of the Passover... which was in March... nine months later is December.
4. The Bible says in Matt 2:8 that Herod sent them into Bethlehem to find the Child. The Holy Family’s first trip after the birth was to Egypt at the urging of the Angel. It also said that they left for Egypt immediately after the Epiphany. The Bible doesn’t mention the wise men finding Jesus in Egypt.
It doesn’t matter whether The Holy Family had found lodging and the wise men now visited them in someone’s house. They were clearly still in Bethlehem and they did not return to Nazareth until they had stayed in Egypt until the death of Herod.
Food for thought.
Meanwhile, Muslims assert that Mohamed ascended to "heaven" on a winged horse above Jerusalem. Any evidence of this? Nope, and it's not even in the Koran. But I assure you, any Muslim who publicly doubts it would be put to death.
The common thread between the 2 stories mentioned above is the faith of the people reading them. Dr. Williams either has little faith, too little to be in a position of power that he holds now, or sees no problem belittling the faith of others in order to pander to atheists and agnostics. Either way he should promptly get the boot. The fact that he is still holding his post speaks volumes about the state of the Anglican Church and its disarray.
But Jesus, Mary and Joseph hit the road for Egypt right away.
The course of Abia identified in Luke 1:5 is named in IChron. 24:10, and Neh. 12:17. Now according to the Hebrew calendar the month this course take place correlates with our month of June not October.
The course of Abia/Abijah takes place between 12-18 SIVAN our June 13-19, 6 months later would be 1st of TEBETH = December 25, birth would then be 15th TISRI = around our September 29.
If the Archbishop had been there, there would have been at least one ass in the stable.
I don't know which I like better, the original or the paraphrase! < :D
I'm wondering if there are liturgical fragments (e.g. hymns) that date pretty early. Oral history sometimes comes down as songs, because verse is far easier to memorize than prose text. I think some of the Epistles of Paul quote hymns.
Admittedly it would be better to consult a true scholarly edition of Josephus' text but I don't have access to one here.
If there was a real uncertainty this would have gotten attention because there have been lots of attempts to determine the year of Jesus' birth.
(And that'll be a good one to add to passwords list!)
Yes, the Pilgrims and Puritans banned Christmas, fined people for organizing parties or giving gifts or making special foods or drinking a nice glass of wine to toast Lord Jesus and Our Lady his mother. Both G K Chesterton and C S Lewis noted and deplored this Puritan heresy.
Rush was hitting on this stuff today, about religion, and told some guy he should go to the Church of Global Warming, for the kind of crap they believe. So, Rush has officially named the socialist church. It is now, officially:
The Church of Global Warming, with the Reverend Algore, presiding.
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