Posted on 12/23/2007 6:30:10 AM PST by Liz
That's a great story, but in a nation of literate people he was a scholar. Without doubt his card file would be of interest, and he kept a journal and you won't be seeing either.
I would like to confirm your assertions that “neither Mary nor Joseph were peasants”.
While most people miss the connection .. the clothing Mary has always been pictured wearing is a signal of her wealth.
In Jesus day, most clothing was hand-made. If you had servants and sufficient wealth, you could to have the bland cloth bleached or dyed into glorious colors.
Mary is always pictured in a BLUE dress with a WHITE head covering. These would indicate she had wealth and her family could afford to buy expensive cloth to make their clothing.
Joseph was not wealthy - but he was not poor either. Joseph was a trained wood-cutter - a prized and noble profession in that day. Jesus was taught by Joseph to work with wood.
But .. the world always assumes Mary and Joseph were peasants - because they were forced to stay in a stable when Jesus was born. Even Mary’s wealth could not provide a hotel room - when there was a surge of people for the taxation edict. The world’s view of Jesus birth is always pitiful.
I wrote a 3-act play several years ago .. and it focused on all the angelic activity which was going on prior to, during, and after the birth of Jesus. If people would just search their Bible in the 3 Gospels - they will find a multitude of angelic activity. This was not the birth of a “peasant” .. this was the birth of the KING OF ALL KINGS and ALL HEAVEN rejoiced at the event.
God came to earth in the form of a man (Jesus - who was both man and diety) .. to show people He was real and to show how much He loved humanity.
Jesus’ death paid the penalty for ALL SINS for ALL TIME - He was our substitute. Jesus resurrection proved God’s love for all; it meant restoration of the human soul and a pathway to restore humanity’s relationship with God. The was to receive this God-given benefit (which is available to all) is to RECEIVE Jesus as your Savior and Lord.
God is awesome!
And Joseph was not the father either. Jesus was the Son of God. Joseph was the foster father.
You are correct.
However, in the scriptures, God called Joseph, “a faithful and righteous man”. That’s a pretty great recommendation from God.
Thanks, Amen
Or not boiling a bagel before you bake it.
There would be nothing controversial about creating this scene in words or film. Twelve year old Jesus was a dutiful son whose wisdom and knowledge were on the level of an aged rabbi. But at that age He would not have challenged the teachings of the Jewish religion. Just the fact that the crowd of scholars did not toss Him out on His ear is proof of that. A film that recreates a scene in this manner would be good for both Christianity and Judaism.
Mary was a cousin of Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist, and wife of Zachary, a priest. In the Judea of the time, the priests were the aristocracy.
There’s no indication of the skill-level of Joseph. He could have had barely the necessary skills to survive in his trade.
Rather unlikely. I doubt God chose an incompetent to be the foster-father of his son.
It is true Jesus did not grow up in great wealth. However, his family did have the money to travel from Nazareth to Jerusalem for festivals when he was a chile. This does not indicate a poverty-stricken childhood.
I think Jesus had a middling status as a child and young man. His family was neither wealthy nor poor.
There were no community colleges at the time, Doctor, if that's your real name. Jeez!
We could as well say that he never drove an Oldsmobile. What a silly article!
Neither Mary nor Joseph were peasants.
He was a highly skilled artisan. She had family connections to the highest Jewish aristocracy.
There was a show on one of the Discovery channels today, called The Missing Years, about Jesus from age 12-30. It spoke exactly about this comment. And all the men who were speaking on that show said his family was not peasants. That they were skilled people, making items, have skills to make implements that they could sale. They were small business so to speak. Exactly correct according to their statements.
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You said — “Rather unlikely. I doubt God chose an incompetent to be the foster-father of his son.”
I’ve seen a lot of competent carpenters making absolutely no money at all... LOL! And God wouldn’t choose a foster father for Jesus on the basis of either money or competency in shaving wood from beams.
The fact of the matter was that Jesus and his family were *not connected* and had *no money*. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus had absolutely nothing of worldly wealth or gain of any sort, at all (nothing derived from his family at all).
The account of Jesus and his family indicates that there was nothing holding them (in the way of responsibilities for property and/or any kind of wealth) in one place. They could pick up in a moment and leave and go to another location (which they did, in an instant).
At least God sent the magi and their gifts, which most likely sustained the family for years to come.
When Jesus said — “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” — he would have been lying, if he and his family had a place where he could lay his head. He has let us know that he had no property and no money — nothing at all, not even what the least of those in that society may have had.
Regards,
Star Traveler
ACLU, 125 Broad Street, 18th Floor, New York, NY 10004
Please write in large print on the envelope: "In GOD we trust"
I have no doubt that Jesus had no monetary resources of his own after he started his ministry. I suspect he donated any he may have had to his mother and family, living thereafter solely on donations from supporters.
I believe he chose poverty when he started his ministry, just as he chose celibacy rather than starting his own family.
When Jesus returned to Nazareth, the villagers sneered that he was just another one of them. There was no implication in their taunts that he or his family were on the low end of the social scale in Nazareth, which if they'd been the local equivalent of white trash there certainly would have been.
You said — “When Jesus returned to Nazareth, the villagers sneered that he was just another one of them. There was no implication in their taunts that he or his family were on the low end of the social scale in Nazareth, which if they’d been the local equivalent of white trash there certainly would have been.”
Well, subsistence living — not having (extra) money, not having property and living from day-to-day — is not what I would call “white trash”. It’s honorable that they were able to survive day-to-day, by the blessings of God and the work that Joseph and Jesus did. It’s not “white trash” — but it is being poor and it is barely getting by (although it is “getting by”). They obviously did that (i.e., get by).
That’s the point here (which I brought up in the beginning of this conversation, and which the original posting was about), that He was poor and from a poor family.
You’re making it out to be that either they are “white trash” (or the equivalent of that in those days) or else, were connected and aristocracy.
No, there were no “connections” (that we’re given by the Bible) and there is no aristocracy (in terms of their living conditions and circumstnaces). Jesus came from very “low circumstances”, was brought into this world in “lowly conditions”, lived by lowly means (in terms of finances and property and wealth). That’s the *contrast* that God had set up for Jesus to live in this life, and then to be elevated to His pre-eminent position, at the completion of His “job” here on earth. That He did.
In His “character” He was not “lowly” by any means. But in his circumstances, the way He came into this world, the family He grew up in, the finances/wealth He had, the property He owned — it was all of *very lowly circumstances* — but *not* “white trash” by any means.
That’s a contrast that you’re setting up in opposition to being “connected” or “aristocracy” — which is not the case.
Regards,
Star Traveler
I’m still “on Christmas” even though it’s after Christmas. I mean, the Christmas story, the telling of the coming of the Savior is timeless and good for any time of the year, and is certainly good for a few days after Christmas, too...
I got the following letter from Dave Hunt and I thought it was worthwhile to link to this Christmas thread, if for nothing else, than for future reading for those who come across it for next Christmas, too.
December 24, 2007
Dear Star Traveler,
Our office will be closed on the 24th and 25th.
Today’s update is from our archives, the newsletter article from December 1992.
Today’s Update: The Cradle & the Cross
by Dave Hunt
Another Christmas season is here. Why December 25, since it’s unlikely that Jesus was born at this time of year? The Roman Church simply took the Saturnalia, a licentious celebration of the winter solstice dedicated to Saturn, and Christianized it in order to convert pagan Rome. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity. For example, statues of Isis and Horus were renamed Mary and Jesus so that pagans could continue their idolatry under Christian names. Pagan customs involving vestments, candles, incense, images and processions were incorporated into Church worship and continue today. No authentic history denies these facts.
Would the world, then, be better off without Christmas? Atheists think so and wish to remove all manger scenes and crosses from public places. Rather than joining the enemies of God in denouncing Christmas, however, might we not better cultivate the bits of truth that shine through the lamentable commercialization and paganism? This is a unique time of year for presenting the gospel to the world, so let us take advantage of the opportunity.
Christ’s birth and the details of His life, death and resurrection were foretold centuries before by the Hebrew prophets. No such prophecies preceded the births of Buddha, Confucius, Muhammad, et al. Biblical prophecy fulfilled is the most powerful persuader we have. Paul used it in converting the lost and turned the world of his day upside down. So should we.
In Romans 1:1-4 we see Paul’s approach. He refers to “the gospel of God, (which he [God] had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures).” Christianity is not a first-century invention. It is, in fact, the fulfillment of that which, with one voice, the Hebrew prophets consistently foretold for centuries.
There are more than 300 Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Why? So Israel could identify Him, when in the fullness of time God would send forth his Son (Gal 4:4). The third chapter in the Bible contains the first prophecy of the Messiah’s coming, His virgin birth (”the seed of the woman”) and His destruction of Satan (Gn 3:15). The prophets declared that He must be of the “lineage of David” (Jer 23:5; 2 Sm 7:10-16; Ps 89:3-4) and rule upon David’s throne. To prove that Jesus met this criteria, Matthew and Luke begin with the genealogy of Joseph and Mary.
Having rejected Jesus, the Jews still hope for their Messiah to come-but they hope in vain. Jesus Christ fulfilled Malachi 3:1 (”the Lord [Messiah], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple”) when He cast out the money changers and merchants (Mk 11:15). The destruction of the temple 38 years later in A.D. 70 made it impossible during the last 1,923 years for any would-be Messiah to fulfill that scripture. Moreover, all genealogic records were lost in the destruction of the temple, so a future “Messiah” would not be able to prove the necessary descent from David.
Yes, the temple will soon be rebuilt. Instead of cleansing it, however, as Christ did, Antichrist will defile it with his image and force the world to worship him as God: “he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thes 2:4).
Jacob prophesied, “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah...until Shiloh [Messiah] come...” (Gn 49:10). Shortly after the birth of Jesus, about A.D. 7, the sceptre departed when the Jews lost the right to enforce the death penalty. Thereafter, it was forever too late for Messiah to come. By God’s grace, however, He had already come; and He will come again to rescue at Armageddon those who rejected Him the first time. They will know Him by the marks of Calvary (”they shall look upon me whom they pierced”; Zec 12:10). The sceptre having departed from Judah, Christ, instead of being stoned by the Jews, was executed by the Romans, whose supreme penalty was crucifixion. Thus was fulfilled yet another prophecy: “...they pierced my hands and my feet” (Ps 22:16)!
But back to the cradle. Caesar Augustus had no inkling of the momentous effect of his decree “that all the world should [return to the city of one’s birth to] be taxed” (Lk 2:1). That decree brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem in time for the birth of her “firstborn son” (so she had other children) in fulfillment of Micah 5:2: “But thou, Bethlehem...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel....”
What depth of meaning there is in the simple statement, “when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son” (Gal 4:4)! His birth had to occur before the sceptre departed from Judah; His death, after. His birthplace was determined by a Roman decree; His death and its method of execution, by the Roman occupation of Israel. He had to come before the temple was destroyed and with it the genealogic records.
The “fulness of time” has passed. No one else can meet the Messianic criteria laid down by the Hebrew prophets! That simple phrase, however, carries a much deeper meaning than we have seen above. If the timing of His birth causes us to marvel, the timing of Christ’s death is even more precise and full of meaning. Daniel prophesied the very day of His death.
Through the writings of Jeremiah, Daniel learned that the Babylonian captivity would last 70 years (Dn 9:2). God had commanded that each seven years the Hebrew slaves should be set free, debtors forgiven and the land given a one-year sabbath of rest (Ex 21:2; Dt 15:1,2,12; Lv 25:2-4). For 490 years Israel had disobeyed this precept. As judgment, Jews became slaves of Babylon while their land rested the 70 years of sabbaths it had been denied.
While confessing this sin, pondering and praying, Daniel was given the revelation that another period of 490 years (70 weeks of years) lay ahead for his people and for Jerusalem (9:24). At the end of that time all of Israel’s sins would be purged, all prophecy fulfilled and ended, and the Messiah would be reigning on David’s throne in Jerusalem. These 70 weeks of years (490 years) were to be counted “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem” (v 25). That crucial date is given to us in Scripture.
Nehemiah tells us that it was “in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king” (2:1) that he received the authorization to rebuild Jerusalem. When the day of the month was not given the first day was intended. There were several Artaxerxes, but only one, Longimanus, who ruled more than 20 years-from 465-425 B.C. Thus we have the key date from which this incredible prophecy was to be calculated: Nisan 1445 B.C.
At the end of 69 of these “weeks” (7x69 = 483 years) “Messiah the Prince” would be made known to Israel (Dn 9:25) and then “be cut off [slain], but not for himself” (v 26). Counting 483 years of 360 days each (the Hebrew and Babylonian calendar), a total of 173,880 days from Nisan 1445 B.C., brings us to Sunday, April 6, A.D. 32. On that very day, now celebrated as Palm Sunday, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a young donkey and was hailed as Messiah the Prince! (Zechariah 9:9 was fulfilled at the same time.)
There is, however, an even deeper meaning to the phrase, “In the fulness of time....” April 6, A.D. 32 was, on the Hebrew calendar, tenth of Nisan. On that day the passover lamb was taken from the flock and placed under observation for four days to make certain that it was “without blemish.” During the same four days, Christ, whom John the Baptist had hailed as “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (Jn 1:29), was likewise on display before Israel. On the fourteenth of Nisan, “the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it [the passover lamb] in the evening [between 3:00 and 6:00 P.M.]” (Ex 12:6). It was during that precise time period that Jesus died on the cross!
It is fascinating to see how God uses man’s decrees and even man’s connivings against Him to fulfill His Word. The rabbis had determined not to arrest Jesus during passover, “lest there be an uproar of the people” (Mk 14:2). Yet that was when He had to die. Judas was not only Satan’s pawn, but God’s. Even the “thirty pieces of silver” he so shrewdly bargained for fulfilled prophecy (Zec 11:12-13). As Peter would declare in his Pentecost sermon, “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain” (Acts 2:23). Paul wrote, “Christ our passover [lamb] is sacrificed for us” (1 Cor 5:7).
The fourteenth of Nisan began, as Jewish days did, at sunset Wednesday evening. That night Jesus and His disciples had the “last supper” in the upper room where they were preparing to eat the passover the following night. At this meal “before the feast of the passover” (Jn 13:21), Jesus told His disciples, “One of you shall betray me” (Jn 13:1). Earlier He said, significantly, “I tell you before...that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (Jn 13:19). The word “he” is in italics and does not appear in the original. Jesus was declaring once again to His disciples that He was Yahweh, the I AM of Israel, who tells beforehand what will happen and makes certain that it comes to pass (Is 46:9-10).
Arrested by the Judas-led troop in the Garden later that night, Christ was taken secretly to the palace of Caiaphas, the high priest. A sham trial before the Sanhedrin, with hastily called false witnesses, convened sometime after midnight, condemned Christ to death as dawn broke. Shortly thereafter, Pilate, the Roman governor, was notified of the emergency. Hurriedly taken down side streets, the prisoner was received into the citadel at “the third hour” (Mk 15:25), about 9:00 A.M., Nisan 14. All over Israel preparations were underway to kill the passover lamb, which was to be eaten that night.
Jerusalem was crowded and in a state of great excitement. Valuing public relations, Pilate consulted his ever-volatile citizens and let them decide the prisoner’s fate. Incited by the rabbis, the bloodthirsty rabble suddenly turned against the One who had miraculously healed and fed so many of them. “Crucify him, crucify him” (Lk 23:21). “His blood be on us, and on our children” (Mt 27:25). The horrible chant echoed down Jerusalem’s narrow streets.
Shortly before noon the soldiers had finished their vicious, depraved sport. Jesus, scourged almost into unconsciousness and beaten about the face until he was nearly unrecognizable, was led through the frenzied, screaming mob out of the city to “the place of the skull.” By high noon, the One whom Jerusalem, in fulfillment of prophecy, had the previous Sunday hailed as its long-awaited Messiah, was hanging naked, in shame and agony, on the center cross between two thieves. Man had crucified his Creator! Angels recoiled in horror and the sun hid its face.
The next three hours of that Thursday afternoon the earth was darkened mysteriously(Mt 27:45) as God “laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Is 53:6). Thursday? Not “Good Friday”? Indeed not. Jesus himself had said, “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth [i.e., in that part of Hades known as “Abraham’s bosom”]” (Mt 12:40; Lk 16:22). The gospel includes the declaration that Christ “rose again the third day” (1 Cor 15:4).
Obviously, had Christ been crucified on Friday, He couldn’t possibly have spent three days and three nights in the grave by Sunday morning. We are distinctly told that the angel rolled away the stone “as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week” (Mt 28:1). The tomb was already empty at that point, so Christ must have risen from the dead sometime prior to dawn.
Yet the myth of a “Good Friday” crucifixion persists, with much ritual and dogma built upon that obvious mistake. In this fact alone we have sufficient evidence of Rome’s manufacture and endorsement of untruth to cast doubt upon everything else it affirms with equal dogmatism. And what can be said for the Protestants who, by the millions, so willingly go along with this error?
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday-does it really matter? Yes! The day of our Lord’s crucifixion is of the utmost importance. If Christ was not three days and three nights in the grave, then He lied. Moreover, His death, to fulfill prophecy, had to occur at the very time the passover lambs were being slain throughout Israel. It is an astronomical fact that Nisan 14, A.D. 32, fell on Thursday.
“And it was the preparation of the passover....The Jews therefore...that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day...besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away” (Jn 19:14,31). Wait! Not a bone of the passover lamb (Ex 12:46) or of the Messiah (Ps 34:20) could be broken. Not knowing why he did it, “one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side” (Jn 19:34), fulfilling yet another scripture: “they shall look upon me whom they pierced” (Zec 12:10).
John explains that the “sabbath” which began at sunset the Thursday Christ was crucified “was an high day.” It was, in fact, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, of which the first and last days were special sabbaths during which no work was to be done. That “high” sabbath ended Friday at sunset and was immediately followed by the weekly sabbath which ended at sunset on Saturday. Thus two sabbaths followed Christ’s death, preventing the women from coming to the grave until the third day, Sunday morning.
The rabbis thought that having Jesus crucified proved He was not the Messiah. In fact, it was one more proof that He was! In taking His clothes for a souvenir, in gambling for his robe and giving Him vinegar mixed with gall to drink, the soldiers unwittingly added to that proof the fulfillment of yet more prophecies (Ps 22:18; 69:21). The nails driven into hands and feet by Roman soldiers and the spear that pierced His side drew forth the blood of our redemption-all in fulfillment of prophecy!
It is impossible to remain an honest skeptic after comparing what the prophets said with the historical record of Jesus Christ, from the cradle to the Cross. Proof of the Resurrection, which we must leave for another time, is even more powerful! We have solid reason for our faith in Christ. Knowing the facts increases our joy and gives us courage to present the gospel with boldness and conviction.
The original article is located here.
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/5889
The Berean Call | PO Box 7019 | Bend | OR | 97702
And, it is going to be Easter next...
Regards,
Star Traveler
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