Baptisms for the Dead

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[Manic_Episode]

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

[BipolarBob]

Why sure. I believe faith without works is dead. But how much faith can you have when you’re dead? At the time of death your future is set. There is nothing more you can do and no more faith you can exhibit. You are ready for judgment from that point on.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Also, Mormons need to consided this about what the Bible says

Hebrews 9:27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

Because, at its heart, Mormonism is a weird religion, from Moroni's golden tablets and Joseph Smith's translating goggles, through the LDS' history of polygamy, right down to the magic underwear.

A good friend of mine down in North Carolina checked out LDS a few years ago. He went to one of their services and found that it was utter chaos. Several church members showed up on his door step soon afterward, and then helped themselves to his kitchen, where they started going through his refrigerator to pull out any food or drink items that had caffeine or other additives in them. Needless to say, he did not appreciate this home invasion and quickly showed them the door. He ended up joining the Catholic Church instead.

Another friend of mine's mother-in-law hooked up with the local LDS church in her community, which then proceeded to isolate her from her family and basically rob her blind through excessive tithing. I think that she's still in their clutches.

Regardless, Mormonism is just strange and a LOT of folks, especially down South in Baptist country, will have a hard time swallowing Romney if he ends up being the GOP candidate.

[broncobilly]

I know an even greater shocker.
Joseph Smith acutually used words and expressions found in Websters Dictionery that was clearly written many years after the Book of Mormon was supposed to have been written.

Oh. How can we explain it?

Oh. What are we going to do?

[Gil4]

Faith is the means to salvation. Good works are the result of salvation. if your “faith” doesn’t result in good works, it is a fraud.

See Ephesians 2:8-10 for an explanation of the the relationship between faith and works.

[pawdoggie]

I’m really interested. Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan of the highest order.

We can tell it's your interest in theology, and not an animus against a particular presidential candidate that's motivating your intense research. While you're at it, why don't you examine Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses as well? And don't forget the Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and B'Hai as well. As good conservatives, it's our duty to alienate as many people of faith as possible.

BTW, did you know that Evangelical Huckleberrys share something in common with the Mormons? They both believe that Jesus drank grape juice instead of wine. How silly, and how heretical.

[broncobilly]

Sorry. That is not what Biblical scholars tell us.
The Book of Revelation was completed long before many of the books of the NT were written.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

No, actually, the current thinking on the subject is that John of Patmos was not the same John of the Gospels. There are lots of reasons for this, primarily in style and how Revelation is put together, in comparison with John’s Gospel. Kinda like the difference in writing styles between Tom Clancy and Steven King.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

The church should just excise the disease of Smith and purify itself.

Never going to happen since LDS has accumulated far too much wealth and power over the years.

[broncobilly]

Yes. We are saved by grace. But just as faith doesn’t save us, so also our works don’t save us. However, they can be required of us before God saves us by grace.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Ephesians 2 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.



Galatians 3 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)

Galatians 3

Justification by Faith

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c]
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d]
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e]
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f]
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Changeless Promise

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[i]who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[j] that it should make the promise of no effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[broncobilly]

Do you believe great men who never heard the gospel can be saved? What about Buddha, for example.

[broncobilly]

Well we put up with Jimmy and Bubba the Baptists and George the MNethodist. So maybe you in the South can grow up and join the rest of the world and stop acting like spoiled political brats.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

The Book of Revelation was completed long before many of the books of the NT were written.

You're wrong dude. There are several specific passages in Revelation that refer to Emperor Nero's persecutions of Christians, setting the time frame of John the Revelator's exile to Patmos in the AD 64-68 time frame. The Pauline Epistles, of course, were written before AD 64, when Paul was probably beheaded by the Romans, again under Nero. by then, the Gospels had already been written and were circulating within the Christian underground.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

So maybe you in the South can grow up and join the rest of the world and stop acting like spoiled political brats.

Nice. Is your tantrum over now, or do you want whine some more while the rest of us here on this thread discuss some historical and theological facts about Mormonism?

[wastoute]

ETOH deserves its’ own thread. Evangelicals IMHO tred perilously close to Pharasaical thought with their temperance. To avoid drunkenness which is a sin by not drinking ETOH at all sort of follows that Pharisaical tradition of “not sinning by not even getting close”.

Stick with the course on this thread, what is it that Mormons believe? We probably can’t get any knowledgeable Mormons to come in a this point, though.

[broncobilly]

Get real.
Sometimes an author writes in poetry and sometimes in prose, Isaiah for example.
Sometimes a writer uses narative, sometimes apocalyptic, metaphorical style, Daniel, for example.

[carumba]

I’m really interested. Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan of the highest order. Anyone who believes he is a prophet is just not being honest. He didn’t translate plates infallibly given to him by the Angel Moroni(Moron comes from that). He used the King James Old Testament as a template and plagiarized it this has been proven through textual analysis and is not really debatable. He was a phony and the book of Mormon is phony. Setting it beside the bible is apostasy of the religion of Christ and replacing it with a cut and paste fiction put together by a small and petty man not a degree different than a modern conman.

This is bigotry. Plain and simple. Joseph Smith was a prophet. He left ample evidence of his divine calling. The Book of Mormon is one of the most important books of our time. Moroni 10:4 allows each and every honest investigator a chance to take the question to God himself and seek an answer. God is the author of all truth. If you will not ask of God but insist on forming opinions based on bias and traditions then you will continue to grope blindly. Watch out for the ditch.

[broncobilly]

OK You have faith. You are saved. Now you go out and commit sin, say adultery. Are you still saved?