Baptisms for the Dead

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[freeplancer]

You are a liar. Real LDS members would never do any of that crap you just peddled and the actual church would never allow such behavior by any of their true representatives. I hope you feel better with your fantasy out of the way and your down right lies. Welcome to FR newbie and keep on being such a positive force.

[Maelstorm]

I can always hope. :-) They may get far more attention than they ever bargained for if Romney wins the nomination. The truth is far more troubling than any slander or libel possible. They are good people but good people can be mistaken. Do they not think that the Democrats and the media will make a point of where the majority of Romney’s funding is coming from? He will feel more like Jesus Christ by they time they quit pounding nails into him. They are going to turn him into the John Kerry of the Republican party.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Why don’t you ask GOD that question , not me, I didn’t write the rules.

[fortheDeclaration]

I guess that eliminates the Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinity also. Right?

No, the Doctrine of the Trinity is found in the Bible, although that word is not used.

A similar statement is found in the OT. I guess that eliminates the NT. Besides, the last verse of the NT is not the last verse written. Much of the NT wa written after the last book of the assembled books was written.

No, the Book of Revelation was the final book written, in 96 AD

But all books that made it into the NT Canon had to be from Apostles or those closly associated with an Apostle.

And an Apostle had to have seen the Resurrected Christ and have the signs of the Apostle.

[ASA Vet]

CINO Place marker

[Gil4]

Book / Approximate Writing Date
James A.D. 44–49
Galatians A.D. 49–50
Matthew A.D. 50–60
Mark A.D. 50–60
1 Thessalonians A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians A.D. 51–52
1 Corinthians A.D. 55
2 Corinthians A.D. 55–56
Romans A.D. 56
Luke A.D. 60–61
Ephesians A.D. 60–62
Philippians A.D. 60–62
Colossians A.D. 60–62
Philemon A.D. 60–62
Acts A.D. 62
1 Timothy A.D. 62–64
Titus A.D. 62–64
1 Peter A.D. 64–65
2 Timothy A.D. 66–67
2 Peter A.D. 67–68
Hebrews A.D. 67–69
Jude A.D. 68–70
John A.D. 80–90
1 John A.D. 90–95
2 John A.D. 90–95
3 John A.D. 90–95
Revelation A.D. 94–96

If you’d like to argue specific books or dates, have at it and be specific.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

Well, funny that you mention Isaiah, since current scholarship pretty much has determined that his book was in fact written by multiple authors. As for the book of Daniel, the book of Revelation was based heavily upon it as a source, with much of the same imagery and literary style.

Regardless, there is very solid evidence that John of Patmos was NOT St. John the Divine.

[fortheDeclaration]

Takes more than claiming you’re a Christian to actually BE a Christian, and Mormons aren’t Christians. Their Jesus and their God are not the God and Jesus of the Bible.

Amen.

[fortheDeclaration]

Really? Try reading James 2:17-20. Faith without works is DEAD. Even the Devils beleive. If you don’t also have works, your faith is dead.

Yes, works show your faith, but they do nothing in regards to your salvation.

Try reading Eph. 2:8-9,

For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

See also Rom.4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

[wastoute]

Actually, yes. We are all human. There has been but one perfect human and he was crucified. David was a “man after God’s own heart” yet even so he committed adultery and murder to cover his adultery. Did God love him less for it? Aparrently not. The Bible is full of biographies of humans who have sinned, but risen above that sin to serve in crucial ways. Grace elevates us to serve in spite of our sin and God can even use our sin to achieve his purpose. Grace alone is sufficient.

The real answer to this question is what was in your heart when you made a profession of faith? Was that profession just a sham to further some selfish purpose? Peter warns against “wolves” who profess but only want to devour. So if one made a profession of faith as a means to adultery, no, one is not saved.

[fortheDeclaration]

Sorry. That is not what Biblical scholars tell us. The Book of Revelation was completed long before many of the books of the NT were written.

Those 'scholars' are in error.

[broncobilly]

Well, I am going to get some sleep and look at it in the morning. As I recall some of Paul’s letters were written after that book.
The important date, however, is when the books were assembled into one volume. Until that happened, the statement not to add to the book would mean only the book of Revelation, not the rest of the books that would eventually come together into the NT. When the Book of Revelation was written it was not determined what books would end up in the volume or even what order they would be assembled into the volume.
So in my mind, the author of that specific book was saying he didn’t want to have what he had written tampered with. He wasn’t making a statement about the end of revelation from God.

[fortheDeclaration]

Do you believe great men who never heard the gospel can be saved? What about Buddha, for example.

Budda was a sinner and rejected God.

See Rom.1:19-32.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

You are a liar. Real LDS members would never do any of that crap you just peddled and the actual church would never allow such behavior by any of their true representatives. I hope you feel better with your fantasy out of the way and your down right lies. Welcome to FR newbie and keep on being such a positive force.

Nice. Thanks for adding to the discourse.

BTW, just FYI:

User: Virginia Ridgerunner
Since Dec 31, 2004
In Forum: 3,900+ posts

[fortheDeclaration]

You're wrong dude. There are several specific passages in Revelation that refer to Emperor Nero's persecutions of Christians, setting the time frame of John the Revelator's exile to Patmos in the AD 64-68 time frame. The Pauline Epistles, of course, were written before AD 64, when Paul was probably beheaded by the Romans, again under Nero. by then, the Gospels had already been written and were circulating within the Christian underground.

John makes no comments regarding Nero.

He was put on the island of Patmos during the reign of Domitian, about 95AD

[fortheDeclaration]

OK You have faith. You are saved. Now you go out and commit sin, say adultery. Are you still saved?

Wow, I guess after you are saved, you stopped sinning?

1Jn.1:10,

If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

Christians sin and are chastened for them (Gal.6:7-8, Heb.12:7-11), but he always remains a child of God and cannot lose that salvation (Eph.4:30, Rom.8:38-39)

This is because he has been 'born again' not by water, but by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:3-5), which gives eternal life to the believer (1Jn.5:11)

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

I respectfully disagree. Here is a nice article on the subject by Dr Carl Bogue, available here.

**********************************************************

The Dating of the Book of Revelation

by Carl W. Bogue, Jr., Th.D.
Pastor of Faith Presbyterian Church Akron, Ohio, U.S.A.

A popular theory holds that the book of Revelation was written sometime in the period between A.D. 90-95. If this is true, then the expectation is that the “Great Tribulation” described in the book was far off in the future—maybe in our own time. But a candid look at the evidence requires a date shortly prior to A.D. 70 when Jerusalem and the temple were utterly destroyed, as Jesus prophesied would happen in the “Little Apocalypse,” Matthew chapter twenty-four.

First, Jerusalem is spoken of as still standing. Revelation 1-11 alludes frequently to the fall of Jerusalem. John is called to measure the temple, without any suggestion that it is destroyed (11:1). Jesus told His disciples that within their generation, not one stone of the temple would be left on top another (Mt. 24:2). The temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and never rebuilt. Thus, it is evident that Revelation was written before that judgment.

Furthermore, the emperor Nero is mentioned as still being alive: “There are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space” (17:10). Julius was the first Caesar (48-44 B.C.); he was followed by Augustus (27 B.C.-A.D. 14), Tiberius (A.D. 14-37), Caligula (37-41), Claudius (41-54), Nero (54-68), Galba (who ascended the throne upon Nero’s suicide on June 9, A.D. 68 and reigned only briefly until he was assassinated on January 15, A.D. 69) and Vespasian (A.D. 69-79). The first five Caesars—Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius—had already died (“fallen”) at the time of the writing of the book of Revelation. Nero was on the throne. After him arose another Caesar, Galba, who only continued a short space—just a little over six months. How exactly was Bible prophecy fulfilled!

Moreover, Revelation 13:8 identifies the emperor with the number equivalent of Nero’s name: 666. In Hebrew the name is “nrwn qsr”: n (50) r (200) w (6) n (50) q (100) s (60) r (200), which totals exactly 666.(1) The numerical values of the Hebrew alphabet are well established.(2) How totally contrived and arbitrary are naive and misguided efforts to force this historic number on twentieth-century English names such as Henry Kissinger or Ronald Wilson Reagan!

There is also the a priori teaching of Scripture itself that all special revelation ended by A.D. 70. The angel Gabriel told Daniel that the 70 weeks were to end with the destruction of Jerusalem (Dan. 9:24-27); that period would also serve to “seal up the vision and prophecy.” In other words, special revelation would stop by the time Jerusalem was destroyed.

Finally, John repeatedly makes the point that the great tribulation he describes “must shortly come to pass” (Rev. 1:1). This was a comfort for persecuted Christians: deliverance was at hand! “Shortly” does not mean a quarter of a century later—let alone 1900-plus years later! God’s word says: “shortly,” and there is no reason for not taking it literally. Further, there are at least 24 verses in Revelation (e.g., 1:3; 2:16; 3:10-11; 10:6-7; 12:12; 22:3, 7, 10, 12, 20) which speak of the imminence of the fulfillment of the prophecies of the book (not imminent now but imminent in the first century).

While part of the concluding portion of Revelation is about end-time events, the primary thrust of the book is about the destruction of Israel by Nero and Christ’s victory over Rome. Only one event can possibly match the tribulation and the details of the book of Revelation: the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, vividly chronicled by the Jewish historian Josephus. This is what “must shortly come to pass,” according to John; and therefore, he was writing the book of Revelation prior to A.D. 70.

_________________________

(1) Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., He Shall Have Dominion (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1992), p. 409. Back.

(2) See, for example, Menahem Mansoor, Contemporary Hebrew (New York: Behrman House, 1976), pp. 10-11; or J. Weingreen, A Practical Grammar for Classical Hebrew (New York: Oxford University Press, 1939), p. 1. Back.

[broncobilly]

Oh. Excuse me. I didn’t realize you just wanted to bash Mormons in your little circle without being challenged.

We’ll try to leave you alone in your narrow little exercise.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

I didn’t realize you just wanted to bash Mormons in your little circle without being challenged.

How is pointing out historical and theological idiosyncrasies in Mormonism bashing it?

Please point out one thing that I and others have said about the "faith" that is untrue? The angel Moroni? The Golden Tablets? Smith's translating stones? Polygamy? The protective underwear? Ancestral baptism?

Is anything we said about these things untrue?

[The Bass Player]

Hey y’all:) Don’t mean to interrupt a spirited debate here or anything, don’t want to hijack a thread, but since it’s Christianity that’s being debated, and I am extremely ignorant about that, other than the Blood of Christ has Saved me, and I hope I’m not breaking any rules here, but another WW2 vet has passed way a few hours ago, and several Freepers prayed for him this past November, so, in case anyone of you were doing that, or in case you’re interested, here’s the url for the thread I just posted. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1946690/posts

Again, I don’t mean to break any rules or get in the way here, I just figured that maybe some or all of you would be interested, that’s all:) Thanks:) Bass