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AIDS Patients Face Downside of Living Longer (effects of AIDS drugs "worse than having AIDS")
New York Times ^
| January 6, 2008
| JANE GROSS
Posted on 01/15/2008 6:18:55 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Paleo Conservative
It's like cancer, if the disease doesn't kill, the medicines taken to fight it will."
No truer words spoken
My family has discovered that if the doctors hasn't cured you in 90 days of what ever ails you then you will suffer with it unto the day you die, either from the disease or the medical care
We have learned the the hard way, believe me,
To: rusty millet
Sorry - the issues I raised are not in there. I am responding to the gentleman in the original article who has a medical condition and is complaining that his 73 year old self is not reacting well to medication. Not really sure what you are attempting to say through all this discussion. Have a blessed day!
I can tell you exactly what GodsGunsGuts is trying to say. He repeatedly posts on FreeRepublic any article on HIV/AIDS so he can promote his pet theory that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
He pretends that there is some conspiracy and that it is a conservatives versus liberals issue, which is ironic, since it is mostly the crystal wearing, commune living, Berkenstock wearing Lefties who started this whole conspiracy theory.
So he's saying that HIV is harmless; AIDS is something only gay people get; and if you disagree with him, all you have to do is read his 15 year old article which proves he's right.
And the rest of the global medical research community? They are all in on the conspiracy too.
posted on 01/15/2008 12:31:48 PM PST
As regards to the gentleman who has made it to 73 years of age, I suspect that he either tolerates chemotherapy EXTREMELY well, or he stayed off the same.
More medical analysis of people you've never met, GodsGunsGuts?
The alternative and simpler theory is that ARVs work, albeit with serious side-effects.
posted on 01/15/2008 12:33:51 PM PST
Science has never figured out how to stop a Virus.
Geez, and I just got a Yellow Fever
vaccine a few days ago.
Is your theory that Yellow Fever is not really caused by a virus or that the vaccine that scientists figured out doesn't work?
I would be interested in your theories on Smallpox too.
Since Smallpox has been eradicated from the planet, I'm curious how that was not stopped, by your definition.
posted on 01/15/2008 12:38:29 PM PST
==More medical analysis of people you’ve never met
What do you think you have been doing on behalf of the AIDS establishment? And yet, when you are asked to debate Duesberg, or any number of hundreds of other MDs and scientists who share his point of view, you put your tail between your legs and scamper away into the shadows. When you finally agree to debate Duesberg et al, I’ll finally have a reason to take you seriously. Until then, you’re just an ankle-biting chihuahua.
I remember hearing stories about them. How are you connecting it to this story?
Bug chasers were of the opinion that AIDS could be managed in the same way that diabetes can be managed, so they went out and got infected on purpose. 20 years ago the AIDS cocktail cost $10,000/month and now it's $100 or so. So it seems a little less horrible that gays are getting infected while expecting their insurance group to cover their costs. Now we hear that those bug chasers are going to cost how much money to all of our insurance groups as they get every desease in the book?
posted on 01/15/2008 2:16:21 PM PST
(WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
What do think is the best evidence that failure to use ARVs is fatal for those who are HIV positive.?
Clinical evidence. HIV+ people who don't take ARVs
Consider the late editor of Continuum magazine who published Duesberg's works. He's dead today because he refused to take ARVs. Talk to physicians who treat the HIV+, including those who are FREEPERS and post on this board. They report that HAART therapies are extremely effective at keeping their patients alive and that those who don't take ARZs die.
Here's a representative sample of people who believed that tripe that GodsGunsGuts passes off as truth:
Ken Anderlini was a co-moderator of the AIDS Myth Exposed message board on MSN. Anderlini died in April of 2007. Denialist David Crowe from the Alberta Reappraising AIDS Society wrote an announcement of his death, saying: Over the past couple of years his health had declined rapidly with a strange neurological disease for which nobody could pinpoint the cause (except doctors who claimed it was HIV related, of course).
Fela Anikulapo-Kuti, the great Nigerian music star, died in 1997 of a disease he claimed didnt exist, and certainly not in Africa: AIDS. No matter that Felas older brother, Professor Olikoye Ransome-Kuti, had served as the countrys health minister and launched Nigerias much-lauded early AIDS program. . . . There was hardly an illness African herbs couldnt cure, Fela maintained, and he dismissed condoms as unnatural, unpleasurable, and a white plot to reduce the black birthrate. He believed, says Olikoye, that all doctors were fabricating AIDS, including myself. Fela was 58.
(Mark Schoofs, A Tale of Two Brothers Part 2: Fela Didnt Believe AIDS Existed. But then he died of the disease. His brother is still trying to convince Felas fans that HIV is real. Village Voice, November 10 - 16, 1999.)
A member of the denialist ACT UP/San Francisco, Michael Bellafontaine died on May 10, 2007. He was 41. His Bay Area Reporter obituary said that According to Andrea Lindsay, a friend and fellow activist, Mr. Bellefountaine died of a sudden systemic infection, though the exact cause has not been determined. http://ebar.com/obituaries/index.php?sec=ob&article=252
Sophie Brassard, a Canadian, was the HIV-positive mother of two HIV-positive, perinatally-infected sons. Citing the influence of HEAL, Alive and Well, Duesberg and Mullis, she refused to allow her children access to medical care when the became ill and fled the country with them. She consequently lost custody and parental rights. She died of AIDS on September 16, 2002, at age 37. http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000186.html
Ronnie Burke was a member of the dissident group ACT UP/San Francisco (which has been denounced by other legitimate ACT UP groups). He died from AIDS in March of 2003 at the age of 47.
Sylvie Cousseau contributed to a list of testimonials from people who tested HIV positive but embraced AIDS denial and rejected HIV treatment. This list of testimonials features on several different websites, including HEAL Toronto and the personal web pages of Rudolf Werner, Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at the University of Miami.
Sylvie Cousseau was the partner of Mark Griffiths. Sylvie died in 2001 at age 41. Cousseaus death was reported in postings to AIDS denial message boards in France.
Mark Griffiths ran a denialist website called Altheal (along with a French version, Sidasante), until he died in October 2004. In the article linked below, the AIDS denialist Liam Scheff ponders the cause of his death, suggesting Griffiths may still have been using heroin (because he seemed a bit groggy sometimes); this is despite the fact that Griffiths had undergone successful recovery in the late 1980s. Scheff ultimately concluded that Griffiths died because he was abusing alcohol. http://www.altheal.org/altheal/markmemorial.htm
Another associate, Emma Hollister, suggests Griffiths death was related to a course of antibiotics taken several months before for dental work: http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/emma_holister/2005/01/07/aids_dissidence_movement_loses_a.htm
Robert Johnston was a co-founder of HEAL Toronto and a co-author of the self-described rebuttal of the Durban Declaration that was posted to HEAL Torontos website in 2000. At the time, he wrote: Robert Johnston is a co-founder of HEAL Toronto, and has been HIV-positive since 1985 yet has suffered no unusual illness since that time. He attributes his good health to not taking any anti-HIV medications and to not believing that his positive antibody test has much significance.
Johnston died three years later on April 3, 2003. As with all other similar cases, Johnstons colleagues claim his death was not caused by HIV infection. David Crowe wrote that he died of liver failure completely unrelated to AIDS.
Kelly Jon Landis
We regret to report that Kelly Jon Landis died December 3, 2007 in Santa Monica, CA, at age 39 after suffering for several months with lymphoma and other AIDS symptoms. Self-described as the dissident saint, he was a health food fanatic and avid bicycle rider who avoided standard medical care and sought alternative therapies. He felt that simply leading a drug-free healthy lifestyle would protect him from disease.
Although a dissident himself, Kelly Jon Landis vocally opposed the homophobia rampant among HIV/AIDS denialists.
Jack Levine was a regular poster to the Virusmyth message board. When he became sick and began to question denialism, the other board members turned on him, which eventually led to the Virusmyth message board being taken permanently offline in order to hide the appalling record of what happened. Levine died from AIDS in March of 2002 at the age of 47. http://www.thebody.com/cgi-bin/bbs/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=living&Number=41833&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=9&o=&vc=1
Raphael Lombardo was a gay man who believed Peter Duesbergs claims that HIV was harmless. Lombardo wrote to Duesberg on May 30, 1995, noting that he had never used any recreational drugs or pharmaceuticals and was not sick, despite testing HIV positive (the letter was titled Life without AZT !). Duesberg published the entire letter in his book Inventing the AIDS Virus and wrote of Lombardo: His letter proves that true science does not depend on institutional authority. (The letter is posted at: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pdazt.htm
Raphael Lombardo died of AIDS a little over a year later, on June 11, 1996. When asked about Lombardos death, Duesberg wrote: In hindsight, I think his letter was almost too good to be true. I am afraid now, he described the man he wanted to be [e.g. that he did not use recreational drugs] and his Italian family expected him to be, but not the one he really was. I think he died from Kaposis. (Source: Email to Richard Jefferys from Peter Duesberg, Wednesday, April 05, 2006)
When this correspondence was published on the internet, Duesberg was contacted by Raphael Lombardos sister, Regina, who was incensed by Duesbergs claim that her brother had covertly used poppers or other recreational drugs (as Duesberg was implying). Duesberg wrote back to her and told her that she was wrong, too.
Peter Makoba, a senior politician in South Africas African Nationalist Congress Party and a prominent denialist, died in 2002 at the age of 43 from AIDS-related pneumonia after a long illness. He denied that he had AIDS and rejected antiviral drugs as poison. http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,753812,00.html
Marietta Ndziba was used by the vitamin salesman Matthias Rath to market multivitamins as an alternative to antiretroviral treatment. In a pamphlet distributed by Rath and his agents in Cape Town, South Africa in September 2005, she was quoted as saying that her CD4 count rose from 365 to 841 due to Raths vitamins. She implied that these vitamins treated boils on her arm, her grey skin, diarrhoea and vomiting. She said I just thank God that he brings vitamins here to South Africa to help our lives. As far as the South African AIDS activist organisation Treatment Action Campaign could ascertain Ndziba never took antiretrovirals. She died in about October 2005. One family member reportedly claimed that she died of a stress headache. Raths vitamins clearly did not help Ndziba. She should have been treated by qualified doctors in the public health system, not Rath or his agents.
Astoundingly, a video recording of Ndziba claiming the benefits of Raths vitamins continued to be available on the front page of Raths South African website until January 2006. (Source: TAC)
David Pasquarelli, a leader of the denialist group ACT UP San Francisco developed PCP, anemia, thrush, meningitis, mycobacterium and disseminated CMV before he died in March of 2004. He was 37. http://www.davidpasquarelli.com/
Casper G. Schmidt
Casper G. Schmidt was a psychiatrist who published The Group-Fantasy Origins of AIDS in the Journal of Psychohistory in 1984. The article, which claimed that AIDS was not a real disease but a product of epidemic hysteria, is still regularly cited by AIDS denialists. Schmidt died from AIDS in 1994.
Tony Tompsett wrote for the denialist newsletter Continuum from 1993 until just before his death in 1998 at age 39 from Kaposis sarcoma, toxoplasmosis and possible pneumonia. http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi-bin/res.pl?keyword=Tony+Tompsett&offset=0
Huw Christie Williams
Huw Christie (Huw Christie Harry Williams) was an editor of Continuum, a long-running AIDS denialist newsletter from the UK that folded when all the editors died. Huw Christie developed Kaposis sarcoma and died in August of 2001. He was 41. http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/mbobituaryhc.htm
In an email, Peter Duesberg described Christies death as follows: Did you know Hugh* Christie? Also a gay friend of mine from London, filmmaker and editor of the very popular British gay-interested journal, Continuum. Christie campaigned actively against the health and AIDS hazards of poppers in Continuum. Like me, he was invited by Mbeki, to discuss the causes of AIDS in Africa in 2000. And a year or two later he passed away with Kaposis, from long-term over- use/addiction to poppers!* (Source: Email to Richard Jeffreys from Peter Duesberg, Wednesday, April 05, 2006. *Name misspelled and exclamation point in the original.)
Jody Wells was the founder of the U.K. denialist newsletter Continuum. He had multiple bouts of PCP before he died in August of 1995. http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/continuum/obituary.htm
Scott Zanetti, Morristown NJ, died October 6, 2002 at age 52. Scott Zanetti is another contributor to the list of testimonials mentioned in the entry on Sylvie Cousseau, above. Zanetti also wrote to POZ magazine about being inspired by the writings of Celia Farber, and contributed to the personal stories on the HEAL San Diego website.
There are hundreds more dead Americans who contracted HIV from a variety of sources who are dead because they believed the nonsense that GodsGunsGuts posts here on FreeRepublic.
Most of the "HIV is Harmless" sites are no longer updated, in large part because the founders/owners of those sites were HIV+ and decided to refuse HAART. They are by and large now dead.
posted on 01/15/2008 2:16:37 PM PST
Be prepared to go on forever with jas3. He claims to be a scientist, and yet I kicked his you know what in a 500+ reply debate re: AIDS. Unfortunately, the thread was pulled. But be prepared for jas3 to go on forever using a scattershot approach designed to keep you chasing your tail. If you are going to engage him, my suggestion is to ignore his scattershots and focus on one thing at a time, and dont leave the point until you have thoroughly proved him wrong. Just a little advice from your friendly, neighborhood GGG.
Translation from GodsGunsGuts fantasy language into English:
* I, GodsGunsGuts, repeatedly posted the same long disproven conspiracy theory in another thread that was pulled by JimRob and/or the Moderators, and for which I was personally warned by not to post on HIV/AIDS conspiracies again.
* I, GodsGunsGuts, less than 24 hours later am ignoring that warning, and am in great jeopardy of being banned in reposting the same tired conspiracy theories.
* I, GodsGunsGuts, think that posting Conspiracy Theories to the premier conservative website is a way to advance scientific knowledge, even though nobody in the scientific community or medical community(save about 3 people) agree with those theories.
* My last post promoting this topic was by a Loch Ness Monster promoter who is a retired professor.
* The only Freeper who treats HIV/AIDS patients in a clinical practice wrote the below in the last thread.
Just in case anyone's mind is still open on this question: I saw my first AIDS patient in 1982. In 26 years, I've treated over a thousand.
Between 1985 and 1995, I had between 40 and 80 deaths a year in my practice. These included some of the best, and some of the worst, human beings on earth, and everything in between.
I started using three-drug combinations in October 1995.
The last death in my practice from AIDS or its complications was two days before Christmas 1995.
That was twelve years ago.
If it's the drugs that cause the disease, how is that possible?
As you might imagine, I've had ample opportunity to discuss the ideas on this thread in other venues, and I don't wish to post replies on this thread.
The content of this post, then, is just FYI. Make of it what you will.
* I, GodGutsGuns, have no experience as a clinician or scientist and do not even read HIV/AIDS articles. In fact I am completely unqualified to post or comment on HIV/AIDS. However I will ignore the findings of fellow Freeper Jim Noble, since they disprove my theories, and insist that you believe my conspiracy theories instead of reviewing clinical evidence.
posted on 01/15/2008 2:30:38 PM PST
couldn’t find a better choice of words huh?
posted on 01/15/2008 2:32:02 PM PST
by Rightly Biased
(Courage is not the lack of fear it is acting in spite of it<><)
To: GodGunsGuts; Lead Moderator
Sorry about that. I didnt know the NYT had to be excerpted. I excerpted it to draw attention to Larry Kramer. Wont happen again.
I'm somewhat skeptical when you type that it won't happen again.
You were warned not to post on this topic less than 24 hours ago, were you not?
And yet you dug up a NINE day old NYT article to post in News/Current Events so you could push your conspiracy theories all over again.
posted on 01/15/2008 2:34:54 PM PST
For instance, if you look at his AIDS denialist diatribe in poste #76, you will notice that he is still posting a link to Does drug use cause AIDS?. I showed how Duesberg et al not only thoroughly destroyed the Ascher paper, but demonstrated that it is actually powerful evidence in favor of the drug-AIDS hypothesis. And yet, jas3 continues to post it.
Unfortunately you don't get to grade yourself in what you "showed".
Out here in the real world where people actually read NIAID and other scientific studies, there is no evidence that drug use is the cause of AIDS, despite your extensive scientific expertise as an former intern for a now retired Congressman.
posted on 01/15/2008 2:38:53 PM PST
I was never warned against posting threads about AIDS. Jim told JS1138 and myself that he was tired of us pinging him to settle our dispute. He settled our dispute by telling us not to ping him any more. That was the long and short of it.
Duesberg and other scientists have been submitting papers to the journals, but they have not only banned him and others from publishing, but they have banned him from replying even when it is the AIDS establishment is writing about him. Thus, it is necessary for this controversy to leave the hallowed halls of science and be taken directly to the public. This is happened many times before, and it will happen again, just as it is happening now.
There are dozens of open access journals where Duesberg can publish at no cost. In the physics community, for example, there has been excellent work published in the New Journal of Physics
. PLoS Biology
has many important articles in the biologic sciences. Why has Duesberg not published his so-called banned work there?
He has a website. Why doesn't he self-publish his work?
Unfortunately, for you and for Duesberg, the problem with Duesberg's work is like the problem with Hillary. It is not access to people or media, it is that the more you learn about it/her the more crazy you realize it/she is.
Nearly everybody was familiar with Duesberg's work 10 years ago, and he convinced next to nobody that he was right then. As time has passed and further evidence has accumulated against Duesberg, he's left pushing his theory to former Congressional interns, who are the only people left he can convince.
posted on 01/15/2008 2:49:44 PM PST
I was never told not to publish about this topic again. Where are you getting your info? Jim kindly told JS1138 and myself to quit pinging him to settle our disputes. I can’t speak for JS1138, but the point has been taken to heart by me.
What do you think you have been doing on behalf of the AIDS establishment? And yet, when you are asked to debate Duesberg, or any number of hundreds of other MDs and scientists who share his point of view, you put your tail between your legs and scamper away into the shadows. When you finally agree to debate Duesberg et al, Ill finally have a reason to take you seriously. Until then, youre just an ankle-biting chihuahua.
I post "on behalf" of myself.
There are not "hudrends" of scientists who believe Duesberg's theories. The sites you posted in the last thread completely misprepresent the views of many if not most of the people they quote. I gave you SPECIFIC examples in the last thread, which you ignored.
Why do you continue to refer to HUNDREDS of scientists, when the actual number who believe that HIV doesn't cause AIDS is less than 100 worldwide? If you disagree, the onus is on you to PROVE that there are more than 100 scientists who believe that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. And neither the Albertan site nor the Rethinking site are current nor reflect the views of the people they quote. You'll actually have to get current quotes that answer the specific question of whether HIV causes AIDS.
Regarding the "ankle-biting chihuahua" comment, I'm not surprised you jumped right into the ad-hominem attacks. Whenever your CONSPIRACY THEORIES are challenged on this or any other of your conspiracy theory threads, the first thing you do is resort to personal attacks.
posted on 01/15/2008 2:57:03 PM PST
"...we have good reason again to be really scared.
Should have thought about that before you 'pulled' down your fellow man's pants.
posted on 01/15/2008 2:59:38 PM PST
by Mr Apple
( "VIDEO CHINAGATE" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2970981220206109356)
Sorry jas3, I will not be responding to you anymore other than to point out that you refuse to debate Duesberg. You are free to post whatever you like, but I will not be responding to it. I find you dishonest, and I can’t stand people who go running to the moderators every time they encounter someone they disagree with. Goodbye, and good riddens.
I was never told not to publish about this topic again. Where are you getting your info? Jim kindly told JS1138 and myself to quit pinging him to settle our disputes. I cant speak for JS1138, but the point has been taken to heart by me.
A long time ago I stood on the sidelines and watched someone who thought he was doing the right thing tell somebody else that her condition was really harmless and that she shouldn't believe the doctors and scientists who told her he was actually sick.
Not my business, I told myself. Free country. People make bad decisions all the time.
The short version is that she suffered the rather severe medical consequences, and recognize now that I was morally obligated to have said something at the expense of a lost friendship, which is inconsequential in comparison to a human life lost.
I made a promise to myself that I would not let people who do not know what they are talking about to convince others to make bad decisions that cost them their lives.
I'm the kind of person who is always the designated driver and who ends up driving home people who've had too much to drink and are a danger to themselves.
In this case, and in the case of the last thread, GodsGunsGuts, you are the danger. You are dangerous to people who read this thread.
There are assuredly people who read this thread who have relatives or children or are themselves on HAART therapy which is quite literally saving their lives.
Every drug has side effects, and the HAART drugs have very nasty side effects indeed. However if you convince people to withhold medication from their children or themselves, you are actively contributing to their early and needless death.
I know you THINK you are doing the right thing, but you are not. You really need to get out in the clinic and see with your own eyes the benefits of HAART therapies on HIV+ people who have developed AIDS. The benefits are extrordinary.
I know you won't take my word for it. Nor will you consider the evidence presented by Jim Noble, a practicing MD and FREEPER who specializes in infectious diseases such as AIDS and who has treated hundreds of AIDS and HIV+ patients over decades.
So get off your couch and go look at the evidence yourself. You are in California. Go to the Glaser Pediatric AIDS foundation.
Besides yourself, you owe it to the people whom you are trying to convince that you know what you are talking about. Because if you are wrong, and in this case you are DEAD WRONG, then if you convince anybody else they will be both wrong and DEAD.
posted on 01/15/2008 3:14:39 PM PST
Sorry jas3, I will not be responding to you anymore other than to point out that you refuse to debate Duesberg. You are free to post whatever you like, but I will not be responding to it. I find you dishonest, and I cant stand people who go running to the moderators every time they encounter someone they disagree with. Goodbye, and good riddens.
Yes, I refuse to give any credibility to Duesberg or any other Conspiracy Theorists in a formal debate. That goes for you too. You'll not find any scientists who are willing to debate Duesberg for the same reason no Republicans will debate David Duke.
However I will absolutely continue to counter each and every falsehood that you post on Free Republic with the actual truth. For example every time you claim that HIV isn't infectious, I will counter that falsehood. Every time you claim that AZT is a DNA end chain terminator, I will point out to you that it is actually a reverse-transcriptase inhibitor.
In the last thread I posted 61 different instances of your dishonesty, none of which you challenged. Your response was that you wouldn't read it.
You also confessed that you have no qualifications or relevant training to make any judgement on the science HIV/AIDS, except that you were once an intern for a Congressman.
You also confessed that you don't read scientific journals and were unfamiliar with any recent work on HIV/AIDS. You said that you don't read Science, or Nature, or have a subscription to PubMed.
You don't read JAMA or NEJAMA nor do you have any information whatsoever on the efficacy of HAART treatments.
Lastly the phrase you wanted was "good riddance" not "good riddens" which has no meaning (but is highly indicative of the level of your written language skills).
posted on 01/15/2008 3:31:10 PM PST
If nothing else, he is at least posessed of immaculate chronometry.
posted on 01/15/2008 4:13:31 PM PST
("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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