Did a Tsunami Wipe Out a Cradle of Western Civilization?

Discover Magazine ^ | 01.04.2008 | Evan Hadingham

[Zuben Elgenubi]

Let’s ping blam too.

[blam]

Thanks. See post #12.

[nmh]

Thank you.

A worldwide flood would have no problem erasing people and buildings ... . But no, there is no God, right? We only take Him out of the closet on 9/11 type days and quickly tuck Him back in the closet again after we’ve rationalized what happened in a godless way.

[Zuben Elgenubi]

Shoulda known you’d be all over this one. Thinking of you, tho...

[editor-surveyor]

"Always thought the tale of Noah’s Ark was a “result” of a tsunami..."

It was a total re-make of the entire planet; is that a tsunami?

[SunkenCiv]

There is no Thera signature in the Greenland ice cores from the 17th century. There's an ash layer over Akrotiri, but no human remains have been found, suggesting abandonment prior to the eruption. There's no link between the end of Minoan palatial civilization and the supposed (but unattested) super-eruption; what is found instead is not tsunamis or earthquakes, but fire, showing destruction by human hands. Even before the latest backdating of the supposed super-eruption (from 1500 BC to 1628 BC or whatever), the Palatial civilization continued with no apparent ripple for 80 years, and now the much-delayed reaction to Thera is claimed to have taken place as much as 200 years later.

Where the Minoans had been, the Mycenaeans took over, which is difficult to explain since the supposed tsunami supposedly caused by the supposed super-eruption and caldera collapse would have been directed toward mainland Greece, rather than Crete. The archive of Mycenaean Pylos -- which is centuries after the supposed super-eruption -- actually ends with a scrawl of Linear B recording where the troops were being sent and a record of a man and woman being sacrificed to propitiate their gods.

"Even when, during the respective Thera Conferences, individual scientists had pointed out that the magnitude and significance of the Thera eruption must be estimated as less than previously thought, the conferences acted to strengthen the original hypothesis. The individual experts believed that the arguments advanced by their colleagues were sound, and that the facts of a natural catastrophe were not in doubt... All three factors reflect a fantasy world rather than cool detachment, which is why it so difficult to refute the theory with rational arguments." -- Eberhard Zangger, "The Future of the Past", pp 49-50.

[RobbyS]

It is a question of authority. The Enlightenment was partly a project of discrediting the Bible as history and religion as a form of knowledge. The Egyptologists want their knowledge to be the historical standard. Where the Bible doesn’t fit their standard, they declare it to be in error. Pretty much the same way with scholars working in the general history of the Fertile Crescent. The latter has far more to do with the events of the Bible than Egyptian history does. Ironically, they more they uncover the literary remains of Mesopotamia etc. the more intellible the Biblical record becomes. The Bible is mainly about God and his people. What I realize as I read the comparisons between the God of Israel and the gods of the surrounding peoples are the radical differences and the how the convenant law molds a consciousness very different from that of the Canaanites and the Assyrians, for instance. Even the Zarathustrian religion seems to have but a superficial influence more or less like the influences of the Greek philosophers, a matter of imagery rather than substance. The religion of the Jews is sui generis, a fact that surrounding people attribute to stubborness and “superstitition.”

[Strategerist]

A worldwide flood

Which there is precisely zero evidence of.

[nmh]

“Which there is precisely zero evidence of.”

LOL!

The evidence for it is all over the place.

You’re too blind to see it.

[Sam Cree]

place marker

[gleeaikin]

Egyptian “Intermediate Periods”. I am of the opinion that exodus occurred after the Second IP. The Hyksos conquerers of that period were also known as the “Shepard Kings” and were probably nomadic invaders from either the Middle East or the Western Desert or both. During that period the Isrealites may have been relatively autonomous. Once the Egyptians became ascendent in the 1500s BC they might have clamped down on the shepard peoples including Israelites to the point that it became intolerable.

After the 90 year reign of Tutmoses III, Amenhotep II had to deal with uprisings of the tributory states in the Middle East. This went on for some time and would have added to animosity toward Middle Easterners (Isrealites) settled in Egypt. In 1500 BC plus or minus 50 years there was a major eruption of Etna, and I think that it might have had an impact on the Nile watershed leading to the various plagues. I think that as this was a major volcanic event, there may have been other volcanic action, such as on the Arabian peninsula, i.e., “a pillar of fire by night, and of smoke by day”.

A smart guy like Moses, who might have been a ward of Queen Hatshepsut who was co-ruler during the last days of the ancient king Tutmoses III might have been involved in various palace coups and disturbances leading to his exile in the desert and later the decision to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. There was a major effort to wipe the Queen’s existance from the Egyptian royal record. So I am putting the Exodus in the 1400’s BC. Naturally the Egyptians would leave no record of such an embarrassing event. That’s my theory, and I’m sticking to it.

[gleeaikin]

If I remember correctly, Plato was referring to a story by Solon of his talks with an Egyptian priest. The priest said these events were 9,000 years old, and since Solon was before Plato’s time which was around 400 BC, this pretty much adds up to 13,000 years ago which ties in nicely with the possible cometary cause of the Younger Dryas major cooling event. Links anyone?

[SunkenCiv]

:’) The conventional chronology is a pseudochronology. When Hatshepsut visited Punt, she did so when Solomon ruled in Jerusalem. The Hyksos invasion corresponded to the Exodus, in that the Hebrews were on the way out, and the Hyksos were on the way in.

[blam]

"...this pretty much adds up to 13,000 years ago which ties in nicely with the possible cometary cause of the Younger Dryas major cooling event. Links anyone?

Comet Theory Collides With Clovis Research, May Explain Disappearance of Ancient People

Ice Age Ends Smashingly: Did A Comet Blow Up Over Eastern Canada? (Carolina Bays)

[gleeaikin]

There is evidence of major flooding in many areas, but not of a single flood which covered the entire earth. The release of hugh Ice Age melt lakes like Agazziz (sp?) and Missoula, and undoubtedly some in Europe and the Himilayas, would have really messed up some costal areas, which is where most of the “civilization” would have been.

Regarding Crete, my guess is that a signficant tsunami would have wiped out the port facilites, homes, ships and peoples where the shipbuilders and related artisans lived. The Cretan ships at sea would have survived, but with a decimated support system would have gradually rotted and declined in significance, leading to the weakness of the Cretan civilization and eventual conquest by the resurgent mainlanders.

[SunkenCiv]

Trouble remains that there’s no evidence for a tsunami; there’s not even evidence for any super-eruption from anything close to historic times. The pumice found in an Egyptian context was saddled on for years as evidence of a super-eruption; when the pumice was at last chemically analyzed to prove the link, it was found to be NOT from Thera, nor from anything close to the historical era reflected by the strata. So, *that* failure was dismissed as not important — despite the fact that it was the only supposedly solid evidence that any such super-eruption ever took place.

[henkster]

I had considered the 2nd Intermediate Period as the possible time of Exodus, but discarded it. Reason: I accept most of Joshua, Judges, Kings & Chronicles as historically accurate. I don’t always accept the Bible’s compilations of years as accurate. It’s pretty much undisputed that under the New Kingdom, Canaan was a province fully under Egyptian control. And Egypt exerted this control over quite a period. Yet, while the Bible mentions the conquests of Assyrians, Babylonians & Persians (all known historically through other sources) there is no biblical reference to Egyptian occupation.

Looking at the genealolgical timeline from Joshua through Kings/Chronicles, I see the greatest period of chaos in the Israelite conquest of Canaan, and then the rise of the kingdom of David & Solomon ~900-800 BC. Thereafter, Judea & Israel split, and the Assyrians assume ascendancy in the area. In the Bible, Assyrian King Sennarcharib refers to Egypt as a “broken reed,” which she surely wasn’t under the New Kingdom.

Thus, I put the Exodus at the 3rd Intermediate Period.

[gleeaikin]

Another reason that I have tried to find reasonable explanations for the Exodus in the 1400s BC is that there are two dates in the Bible [and I hope maybe someone can tell me where, as I have forgotten] that indicate the Exodus was 400 and some years after the time of Abraham which was 18 to 1900 years BC, and 400 and some years before the Temple was built in Israel. Does anyone have those exact years, as well as the exact date for the Temple?

[SunkenCiv]

The traditional date of the Exodus is circa 1450 BC, hope that’s helpful. The traditional figure for the number of years between (I think) the Exodus and the building of the Temple is the same as the number years between, hmm, two other things, I forget. [blush]