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Monoline crisis jolts market's foundations
The Times ^ | 2/1/08 | Patrick Hosking: Business Commentary

Posted on 01/31/2008 8:07:03 PM PST by bruinbirdman

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To: Moonman62
The yield curve is almost looking normal for the first time in a long time.

That just means we're doomed! /s

61 posted on 02/01/2008 5:49:31 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Travis McGee

Ever catch one of these steers with one of those things?


62 posted on 02/01/2008 7:33:07 AM PST by AndyJackson
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To: Moonman62

Yep.

It sort of focuses one’s mind on the fact that there’s only about 300bp left.

I see that the Fed has $60B planned for two auctions in Feb.


63 posted on 02/01/2008 8:18:09 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Travis McGee

Bullish. Dow 20,000 by the end of summer. Right? Right? Anybody?


64 posted on 02/01/2008 12:07:39 PM PST by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Bullish. Dow 20,000 by the end of summer. Right? Right? Anybody?

2,000. Right?

65 posted on 02/01/2008 1:08:02 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: bruinbirdman
No, he likes the business, because (1) Munis are better than mortgages (2) the existing companies are dead men walking, and he has no obligations for their past mistakes and oh, just in case everybody forgot (3) the regulators *asked* him to step in because the older companies are visibly failing.

It is not like he likes their common stocks...

66 posted on 02/02/2008 8:05:16 AM PST by JasonC
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Well, in that case he only missed the bottom by about 6 hours. (And about 200 points.)


67 posted on 02/03/2008 7:50:41 PM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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To: billmor; AdamSelene235

There have been people here on FR who have been calling for a real estate bust for well over a year, and who have advised people to take positions to profit from it, e.g. to short FNM. Adamselene235 is one such person. But, he’s a gold bug, so he’s been summarily dismissed by many.

Oh, btw, I’m a gold bug too.


68 posted on 02/03/2008 7:55:03 PM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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To: bruinbirdman

Thank God, at first I thought that was and article about the collapse of the monofilament fishing line industry.


69 posted on 02/03/2008 8:06:26 PM PST by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: coloradan
(And about 200 points.)

500 points.

70 posted on 02/04/2008 5:01:16 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

The market opened ~300 points lower that day, so if he called the bottom in the morning, he only missed the actual bottom by ~200. The bottom was 500 down from Friday’s close, but not from Monday’s opening.


71 posted on 02/04/2008 5:34:46 AM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Maybe it opened 200 points down, and went down another 300 that day. But it did open down with a huge gap.


72 posted on 02/04/2008 5:40:22 AM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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To: coloradan
That's not how it works. When a market guy says buy when the Dow is at 2247, he doesn't get credit for a gap opening.

He called a buy at 2247 and the Dow closed that day at 1739. That is a BAD call!!

73 posted on 02/04/2008 5:46:38 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

I still can’t discern from your posts when he called a buy signal, Friday before close, or Friday after the close, or Monday after the open. I do know that the market closed down 508 points from Friday’s close to Monday’s close, which is the difference between your two numbers. So I’m guessing he called the buy after Friday’s close. In that case, no lemming blindly following his advice could have possibly bought at 2247, the markets were closed. They could have only bought Monday at the open, which would have saved them some 200-300 points.

True, the markets would have closed sharply down from that price, making it a “bad call”, but he missed the bottom by only one day (Monday’s close, not Friday’s close) and he does get credit for the gap down, because no client would have bought Friday’s price which you quoted, if the buy signal was issued after Friday’s close.


74 posted on 02/04/2008 6:12:32 AM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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To: coloradan
I still can’t discern from your posts when he called a buy signal, Friday before close, or Friday after the close, or Monday after the open.

Before the opening on Monday. It could have been taped over the weekend.

In that case, no lemming blindly following his advice could have possibly bought at 2247, the markets were closed.

Doesn't matter. News letter guys get graded based on the time they make the call, not whether you could buy or not. They get graded with certain assumptions of the commissions you pay, whether that's what the typical investor would pay or not.

True, the markets would have closed sharply down from that price, making it a “bad call”, but he missed the bottom by only one day

Yup, he missed the bottom by only 22%. Hardly worth mentioning.

and he does get credit for the gap down

No. He said 2247 was the bottom. He was wrong.

75 posted on 02/04/2008 6:38:07 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Doesn't matter. News letter guys get graded based on the time they make the call, not whether you could buy or not. They get graded with certain assumptions of the commissions you pay, whether that's what the typical investor would pay or not.

Well, that's a stupid metric that I don't accept, even if it's the standard. It isn't real. Why do you accept it?

76 posted on 02/04/2008 6:59:23 AM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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To: coloradan
They could have only bought Monday at the open, which would have saved them some 200-300 points.

PRICES
Date Open High Low Close Volume Adj Close*
30-Oct-87 1,965.68 2,049.07 1,965.68 1,993.53 303,400,000 1,993.53
29-Oct-87 1,849.30 1,971.98 1,849.30 1,938.33 258,100,000 1,938.33
28-Oct-87 1,846.49 1,904.51 1,767.74 1,846.82 279,400,000 1,846.82
27-Oct-87 1,806.70 1,904.68 1,806.70 1,846.49 260,200,000 1,846.49
26-Oct-87 1,881.80 1,881.80 1,774.04 1,793.93 308,800,000 1,793.93
23-Oct-87 1,950.43 1,993.87 1,898.54 1,950.76 245,600,000 1,950.76
22-Oct-87 2,004.97 2,004.97 1,837.86 1,950.43 392,200,000 1,950.43
21-Oct-87 1,951.76 2,081.07 1,951.76 2,027.85 449,600,000 2,027.85
20-Oct-87 1,738.74 2,067.47 1,616.21 1,841.01 608,100,000 1,841.01
19-Oct-87 2,164.16 2,164.16 1,677.55 1,738.74 604,300,000 1,738.74
16-Oct-87 2,355.09 2,396.21 2,207.73 2,246.73 338,500,000 2,246.73
15-Oct-87 2,412.70 2,439.78 2,345.63 2,355.09 263,200,000 2,355.09
14-Oct-87 2,485.15 2,485.15 2,400.46 2,412.70 207,400,000 2,412.70
13-Oct-87 2,471.44 2,528.39 2,456.92 2,508.16 172,900,000 2,508.16
12-Oct-87 2,482.21 2,504.90 2,433.91 2,471.44 141,900,000 2,471.44
9-Oct-87 2,516.64 2,531.66 2,472.26 2,482.21 158,300,000 2,482.21
8-Oct-87 2,551.08 2,561.36 2,491.51 2,516.64 198,700,000 2,516.64
7-Oct-87 2,548.63 2,570.99 2,511.75 2,551.08 186,300,000 2,551.08
6-Oct-87 2,632.83 2,632.83 2,542.59 2,548.63 175,600,000 2,548.63
5-Oct-87 2,640.99 2,658.78 2,610.97 2,640.18 159,700,000 2,640.18
2-Oct-87 2,639.20 2,662.37 2,622.06 2,640.99 189,100,000 2,640.99
1-Oct-87 2,596.28 2,648.99 2,593.18 2,639.20 193,200,000 2,639.20

According to Yahoo, they'd have saved 82 points.

77 posted on 02/04/2008 7:03:42 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: bruinbirdman

If you want your blood to run cold, take a look at the article on bloomberg about how the rules are being....”adapted” with regard to capital reserves for the banks right now so they can continue to keep massive losses from MBS, CDOs off the balance sheets.


78 posted on 02/04/2008 7:04:36 AM PST by devane617 (I WILL NOT HOLD MY NOSE AND VOTE !!!!)
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To: coloradan
Well, that's a stupid metric that I don't accept, even if it's the standard.

I'm sure that if he said 2247 was the bottom and the market open up at 2500, he'd have refused credit. LOL!

It isn't real. Why do you accept it?

They need a standard method of comparing news letters. Sorry if you don't think it's fair.

79 posted on 02/04/2008 7:06:29 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Thanks for posting the Yahoo data, but I’m not sure that’s real either. Not all Dow stocks start trading at the same time, so as each one actually starts trading, the index drops more. That’s how the market drops 400 points in the first couple minutes of trading, as for example just happened three weeks ago. The futures were far below the “open” price, and I’m not sure any trades happened at that price either. Not three weeks ago, and not in 1987.


80 posted on 02/04/2008 8:08:19 AM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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