Fair Tax Petition

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[Filo]

Why don’t you post on a thread about “How the Government spends money” instead of “How the Government collects money”

Because I am very concerned about this particular change to how the government steals money.

Sorry if you have a problem with that. Okay, I'm not really. . .

[Filo]

Why don’t you post on a thread about “How the Government spends money” instead of “How the Government collects money”

Because I am very concerned about this particular change to how the government steals money.

Sorry if you have a problem with that. Okay, I'm not really. . .

[Filo]

You say your plan is focused on reducing government spending. I agree with that premise. How do we start?

Simply defund the IRS and shut it all down.

That will reduce the government's theft rate by 1/3 to 1/2.

Let them figure out how to spend less then. Better yet, what have you done so far?

Bought guns and ammo. The government will never change evolutionarily. It will take a collapse or a revolution.

[Filo]

That just isn't true. The FT defunds the IRS, destroys its records and makes a point of calling for the repeal of the 16th amendment. No FTer is in favor of passing the legislation without subsequently removing the 16th.

Re-read what I wrote and then re-read what you wrote. The word "subsequently" in your sentence is the most telling.

When the FT is contingent on the repeal of the 16th (I.e. the day the 16th dies is the day the FT is implemented) then one hurdle has been cleared.

A bona fide objection which can be addressed in write up. There is also a big boon to other savers who have money tied up in qualified accounts such as IRA's.

Sorry, but anyone who saved after-tax money is going to be double-taxed. Anyone who saved pre-tax money expecting to be spending at a lower rate (usually 15% long-term capital gains) will be taxed more than expected reducing their ultimate spending power.

Only those with after tax savings. In my experience managing retirement savings most of it is in pre tax dollars with a large contingent income tax liablity awaiting.

See above. The liability is almost always expected to be long-term cap-gains which come in at half of the FT rate.

A bad thing, granted. But it removes the EITC and it pacifies the liberals and class warriors.

I don't care about pacifying liberals. I care about doing the right thing. Wealth redistribution is most definitely not the right thing

What states are charging 20% tax rates? Their citizens should pay more attention to local lawmakers. 30% is high but when you consider that prices should fall by about 10% or more and that paychecks should go up by 20% or so it is a wash.

People should learn to do math. I live in CA so I'll use that as an example.

First I have an 8.25% sales tax rate which is over 1/3 of the 20% mentioned. On top of that I have an income tax that typically averages about 7-8% (it tops out at 10.5% IIRC), a property tax which is 1.25% of the purchase price of my home (In my case that works out to about 2.5% of my pay, but I'm way on the low end on that one) and a wide variety of other taxes (gas, phone, cable, etc.) and fees (auto registration, smog, waste disposal, etc.) that really add up when you think about it. I'll guess around 2% at the low end.

20% was on the conservative side.

As for the rest, nobody believes the fairy tale about increased wages and reduced prices. Those two can't happen at the same time. At least not to the degree promised by FT advocates.

The FT makes no pretense about reducing the cost of gov't other than to make it more visible to the average taxpayer and make him angry every time he buys something.

Then as I said it is no more valuable than chewing gum to solve the problem.

[Filo]

wrong - It is now.

No it's not. Read the legislation and what I've posted above.

So does the current system, because of embedded taxes.

Unless embedded taxes exactly equal the FT rate, which they cannot, this argument is a canard.

Part of the appeal of the Fair Tax is the simplicity.

That was the appeal of the current system 80 years ago.

Do you think the IRS cares now how much you pay in the state and local taxes?

Do you think I care about what the IRS cares about?

The point is that more than half of what I earn goes into the bottomless cesspool of the government, never to be seen again.

On a national level 1/3 of American productivity is lost to government theft every year.

That is the real issue, not how they steal.

There's some basic math and basic common sense for you.

[cowboyway]

So, exactly how much time did you spend helping Ed Brown and his family up in NH, or were you in on the whole Wesley Snipes scam for some period of time?

WTF are you talking about?

Are you off your meds again?

[xcamel]

Playing ignorant gets you no points... oh wait... you’re a fairtaxer...

[groanup]

Re-read what I wrote and then re-read what you wrote.

I did. You wrote that the FairTax is not tied to the elimination of the income tax. It most certainly IS tied to it.

usually 15% long-term capital gains

The taxation of qualified plan withdrawals is NEVER as a capital gain. It is ALWAYS taxed at the ordinary income tax rate. That is basic. You should know that.

First I have an 8.25% sales tax rate which is over 1/3 of the 20% mentioned

That and the rest of your paragraph don't add up to 20% sales tax.

As for the rest, nobody believes the fairy tale about increased wages and reduced prices. Those two can't happen at the same time.

That is simply wrong. If there is no more witholding and no more payroll tax that means the employee will keep all of his paycheck. The employer no longer has to deal with compliance costs, pay his portion of payroll tax and no longer has to pay income tax. 10% lower prices is on the conservative side.

[Kellis91789]

3.5 The FT effectively removes the wage cap from Social Security taxes while adding nothing to the benefits of those paying the additional taxes.

3.6 The FT will drive the wealthy out of the country, where they can go to spend their money without the high taxes.

3.7 Funding SS/M from ALL spending while the benefits of SS/M are based on only a PORTION of wages is wrong.

4.5 The FT creates huge blocks of irresponsible voters by untaxing them completely via the Prebate and other exclusions.

[cowboyway]

Playing ignorant gets you no points... oh wait... you’re a fairtaxer...

Being ignorant gets you no points...oh wait...you're an income taxer...........

[Filo]

I did. You wrote that the FairTax is not tied to the elimination of the income tax. It most certainly IS tied to it.

No, it is not. There is no bond there. There is no obligation to repeal the 16th in the current legislation. There is a suggestion, maybe, but no obligation.

The taxation of qualified plan withdrawals is NEVER as a capital gain. It is ALWAYS taxed at the ordinary income tax rate. That is basic. You should know that.

True, that. For qualified plans the interest is taxed as income and is usually expected to be withdrawn at a lower rate than earnings, enjoying a lower tax rate under the current system.

The 15% would be for investments outside of retirement plans.

Sorry for my confusion. ;-)

That and the rest of your paragraph don't add up to 20% sales tax.

I didn't say it was a sales tax. I said that my local and state tax burden approaches 20%.

8.25 sales tax, 7-8 state income tax, 2.5 property tax, 2% misc which, at the very low end, add up to 19.75 (8.25+7+2.5+2) Real results are likely much higher.

And now you're telling me that what I save after all of that will again be taxed at 30% plus state and local burdens when I buy something after FT is implemented? Ain't gonna happen.

That is simply wrong...

Yeah, I've read the studies and the posts here. I agree that prices may fall somewhat and that most companies might let the employee keep their share of the tax burden, but the end result isn't going to be "purchasing power neutral" for the consumer.

Even if it was there are still losses incurred on any and all previously taxed savings.

And that's all before the government starts "fixing" the Fair Tax like they did the income tax.

The advocate's predictions are pie in the sky, at best.

[groanup]

As I said the purchasing power of retirees who were dumb enough to only save after tax dollars is going to be hurt. They didn’t violate any rules and the bill should address that.

[xcamel]

So are about 180 million others in the US... Your point would be? Or are you insinuating that everyone but you is ignorant?

[Filo]

As I said the purchasing power of retirees who were dumb enough to only save after tax dollars is going to be hurt.

So anyone with any reasonable wealth who didn't bother to participate in various retirement programs because they didn't need to are "dumb?"

I think anyone amassing sufficient wealth outside of these vehicles is quite the opposite.

They're sure smart enough to see that the FT is a bad deal.

They'll also be smart enough to vocally oppose the bill if it ever appears capable of passing.

They didn’t violate any rules and the bill should address that.

But it doesn't.

[Taxman]

I would encourage you to write your perfect tax bill and then shop it around the Congress for someone to sponsor it.

[cowboyway]

So are about 180 million others in the US

So you're a champion for the income tax and the IRS?

Or are you insinuating that everyone but you is ignorant?

Anybody that favors the income tax is either ignorant or profiting from it.

[groanup]

So anyone with any reasonable wealth who didn't bother to participate in various retirement programs because they didn't need to are "dumb?"

If they had tax deductions available and never took them I don't think that is too smart.

[groanup]

But it doesn't.

As I said. It can be addressed in the write up. What should happen is for congress to debate the damn thing.

[xcamel]

Assumes facts not in evidence, but the FT isn’t big on facts anyway..

[groanup]

but the FT isn’t big on facts anyway..

Assumes facts not in evidence.