Posted on 02/06/2008 7:16:47 AM PST by JohnnyZ
Because it is the codification of the trinitarian philosophy, which you insist on using as the litmus for a believer in Christ.
As for your arguements of first Christians, I consider the fact that they were almost certainly not in possession of the full Bible.
Mormons would argue that the same holds true for you; that you do not consider the entirety of available scripture. And, how do you know that the early Christians did not have MORE scripture since lost? And why do different denominations have different canon? Is Maccabees apocrypha or canon, for example.
Let me rephrase. Are all Christians Mormon as well?
No, as is obvious by my preceding answer. One is Christian when one believes in Christ and accepts Him as Savior. Denomination is a secondary consideration.
You didn’t address the reason why Christians aren’t Mormons, you merely avoided it. Please state the reasons why - I agree with you fully that Christians aren’t Mormons, but hope that in understanding why will enlighten you to the reasons why Mormon’s aren’t Christian.
I have no prejudice or animosity towards Mormons, I just don’t believe their belief system to be Christian. Why you and Lex continue to label me is quite humorous.
And I listed many reasons, Trinitarian belief being only one, that Mormon’s aren’t Christian. Lex only responded to that one reason, and you appear to have followed suit. Scroll up in the conversation to find the other reasons.
And, by the way, I don’t consider Jews or Atheists to be Christian either.
You don’t get to defiine what Christianity is. God does, and did so in His book.
You ignore what I said. Denominations hold Trinitarian beliefs DESPITE not adhering to Nicea.
And I listed multiple reasons, not merely the Trinity. You’ve chosen to ignore them.
You’re getting there. Mormons hold that there is additional scripture that has significat theological impacts that prevent a Christian from being Mormon. The beliefs are exclusive. Christian beliefs do not allow for such accomodations, as God made evident throughout the Bible when his people took to adopting other beliefs.
As for the apocrypha, it does not lead to any theological difference (if you can name one, let us hear it). This is how it is distinguished from Mormon’s extra Biblical writings.
It’s funny that you accuse me of horrors for denying that Mormons are Christian, yet you are so adamant that Christians aren’t Mormon. I trust you see the hypocritical nature of that ironic twist.
And you have still yet to explain why Mormon’s so discriminated against Christians in Utah. None of your arguements hold up to even a cursory examination.
Do I need to draw a Venn diagram? In a given set: Christian Faiths, there are many subsets. Among these subsets are such groups as Mormons, Catholics, Evangelicals, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. Trinitarian Christians do not equal all Christians, but are their own subset which does not include Mormons.
Your statement is as nonsensical as "You didn’t address the reason why birds aren’t penguins, you merely avoided it."
You continue to miss the point. The reasons of exclusivity claimed by Mormons are the very reasons that prohibit them from being Christian.
I listed out several such examples previously, and all you can talk about is Trinity.
So let me get this straight.
You are the sole interpreter of the Holy Bible, with all its nuances and allegories and parables.
That's mighty Diefied of you.
The funny thing is, that I'm not trying to claim I know the absolute heart of God in regards to a Mormon's relationship with Jesus Christ -- but YOU apparently believe yourself the appointed interpreter.
Pride comes before the fall, my friend.
Another case of you defining "that which I believe is true". If it agrees with your doctrine, it is "true apocrypha", if not, it is simply "extra biblical scripture". Proof doesn't work by categorically excluding examples that disagree with your argument. You tried that before with the "name a Christian sect that agrees Mormons are Christians" tack.
It’s funny that you accuse me of horrors for denying that Mormons are Christian, yet you are so adamant that Christians aren’t Mormon.
What "horrors", besides being offensive to politically conservative allies, have I accused you of? I don't know why it is so difficult for you to understand that I reject your narrow definition of "Christian". You cannot impose your definition through repetition. The thief who accepted Christ on the cross was a Christian, yet would have looked upon the Greek philosophies of Trinitarianism as incomprehensible.
And you have still yet to explain why Mormon’s so discriminated against Christians in Utah.
Because I reject your premise. 100% of the Republican vote in Utah was for a Christian candidate. What discrimination? I have thoroughly explained why Romney won Utah.
You stated what it took to be a Christian, and you’re accusing me of being the sole interpreter of the Bible? All I can do is laugh at that one.
God makes the call. And Mormon belief goes outside His Word, and in many cases conflicts with it. I’ve identified those points and you avoid them.
Last time I checked, it wasn't Romney who accused Huckabee or any Baptist of being in bed with the Devil.
It was Huckster who with one stroke of the tongue, accused all Mormons of being defacto devil worshipers.
I am a fundamental Baptist to the core....
Went to Sunday School at 9:30am Sundays, in the main sanctuary at 11 am, and Sunday nights at 7 pm, and Wednesday evenings at 7 pm, in addition to Vacation Bible School and church camp in the summer.
End even had Billy Graham visit my parents' home, in addition to a lot of other well known preachers and ministers you still see on TV.
And I will never vote for Mike Huckabee because the man cannot accept the principal of religious tolerance and freedom to worship in America.
Case closed.
No, the Bible defines what is true. And denominations that believe in the apocrypha do not draw from it any doctrines that conflict with the Bible.
Mormon’s through their extra-Biblical works do draw doctrines that conflict with the Bible, which I started a short list of and you have avoided. Repeatedly.
The thief on the Cross would have called himself a Jew, not a Christian. I would guess that Christ would have called him a Jew.
You’re ignoriing the exlusive claims of Mormonism and why they conflict with Christian belief. You can acknowledge that Mormon’s claim exclusivity in their beliefs, but can’t bring yourself to see how those beliefs conflict with Biblical Christian beliefs.
You’ve accused me of being Anti-Mormon, oblivious, offensive, etc.
The Bible imposes it’s definition. By accepting doctrines outside God’s Word one ceases to be Christian. I don’t see how this is so difficult to accept. It’s actually quite simple.
You’ve only explained why Romney won Utah, not why he won it so disproportionate when compared to other states. Look at this site. Christians galore supporting Romney.
Look at Utah. The opposite is not true.
After Thompson and Hunter dropped out Romney ended up being little more than a cheap consolation prize for conservatives who were looking for somebody - - anybody - - who wasn’t McCain. And although Romney worked that angle, he was never convincing. He just couldn’t pull it off.
McCain was the “default” candidate from the beginning. After everybody else either failed to catch fire or burned out or imploded, McCain the tortoise ambled into view and was the, “Yeah... okay, I guess... why not?”, candidate that lukewarm Republicans could vote for if they made it to the polls out of a sense of civic duty. They remembered McCain, after all, from a previous election - - the “Straight Talk Express” and all that.
What Bible scripture authorizes an infallible Deified Pope as head of the Church?
What Bible verse explains Purgatory? And who is supposed to go there?
Which book in the New Testament tells us to pray with Rosary Beads?
Where in the New or Old Testament does it say to pray or worship St. Mary, or any Saints for that matter?
How did repeated Hail Mary prayers come to mean anything? And don't they violate the New Testament admonition to NOT conduct "repeated" prayers like the "heathens?"
Which Bible verse explains the process of being Cannonized? How many Saints are too many Saints? And which Bible verse sets the rules for becoming a Saint?
What about statues of St. Mary? Doesn't the Bible strictly forbid worshiping statues?
Where in the Bible does it authorize the use of Holy Water?
Why do Priests have to be Celibate?
What Bible verse authorizes us attend Confession... to a moral human being in a Confession Booth?
What about eating fish on Friday, and why is (was) that a sin?
I could go on and on, but you get the point.
Why aren't you flame-throwing at all elected Catholics, who seem to have their own traditions just like the Mormons?
Don't get me wrong. I love Catholics (and Mormons) as Brothers in Christ.
I married a Catholic woman, and even took my kids to Mass occasionally.
But I certainly don't have hatred in my heart toward any denomination like you seemingly have against Mormons.
Oh, I forgot to mention those 7 extra books in the Catholic Bible.
And why are they less authentic than an extra Mormon book?
I’m not saying I believe either one, the Catholic extras or the Mormon.
Just that you, thinking yourself to KNOW the thoughts of God, should be able to discern what is and isn’t absolute.
But apparantly you have no problem voting for a Jew or an Atheist, but would not extend that same consideration for a Mormon.
By the way, your inane argument about Christians not being Mormons or whatever...
Neither do I say Presbyterians are Methodists.... or are Catholics the same as Baptists, etc.
Now I can see why you are confused.
If it were only that simple, there would still be but one Christian Church. Unfortunately, the Bible is subject to the interpretation of mere mortals.
By accepting doctrines outside God’s Word one ceases to be Christian. I don’t see how this is so difficult to accept. It’s actually quite simple.
No, by ceasing to believe in Christ, one ceases to be Christian, not by ceasing to believe in man's meager explanations of the Divine nature. If that were so then the doctrinal disputes of the Reformation, where each side was quite insistent that the other's doctrine was damning, were correct. The "other side" ceased to be Christians when they deviated from the accepted doctrines.
You confuse heretical belief with non-belief.
Look at Utah. The opposite is not true.
Only if you continue to define Mormons as not Christian. Mormons most certainly do not define themselves that way. They were not voting "against Christians". For those whom religion entered into their vote, most were voting for a member of a particular sect of Christian, which is the polar opposite of voting against a person because of their membership in a particular sect. Identity politics vs prejudicial politics.
I imagine that for the most part, "Evangelicals" (as the press would group them) who voted for Huck based on his S. Baptist faith made a similar choice of "for one of Us" as opposed to "against one of Them." But, there were a significant minority who made it plain that their vote was an "against any Mormon" choice. I think you'll find the equivalent "against any Evangelical" voters among Mormons to be vanishingly few, based on their historical support of people like GWB.
Great post.
I can’t believe this guys 15 minutes aren’t up, yet.
Now he’s pullin’ a Gore in my State(WA).
Thanks. By the way, what does "pullin' a Gore" mean?
Throwing a fit when you lose.
Hey Deut28:
s’matter? Having trouble coming up with Bible verses to back up you claims that only Mormons have traditions?
In case you have memory lapse, here they are again.
What Bible scripture authorizes an infallible Deified Pope as head of the Church?
What Bible verse explains Purgatory? And who is supposed to go there?
Which book in the New Testament tells us to pray with Rosary Beads?
Where in the New or Old Testament does it say to pray or worship St. Mary, or any Saints for that matter?
How did repeated Hail Mary prayers come to mean anything? And don’t they violate the New Testament admonition to NOT conduct “repeated” prayers like the “heathens?”
Which Bible verse explains the process of being Cannonized? How many Saints are too many Saints? And which Bible verse sets the rules for becoming a Saint?
What about statues of St. Mary? Doesn’t the Bible strictly forbid worshiping statues?
Where in the Bible does it authorize the use of Holy Water?
Why do Priests have to be Celibate?
What Bible verse authorizes us attend Confession... to a moral human being in a Confession Booth?
What about eating fish on Friday, and why is (was) that a sin?
I could go on and on, but you get the point.
Why aren’t you flame-throwing at all elected Catholics, who seem to have their own traditions just like the Mormons?
Don’t get me wrong. I love Catholics (and Mormons) as Brothers in Christ.
I married a Catholic woman, and even take my kids to Mass occasionally.
But I certainly don’t have hatred in my heart toward any denomination like you seemingly have against Mormons.
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