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Posted on 02/15/2008 4:45:23 PM PST by traviskicks
One gun, one person trained how to use it and willing to do so could have stopped most of this:
DEKALB, Ill. - Another person shot when a gunman opened fire at a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University has died, bringing the toll to seven, including the gunman, a coroner said Friday.
Investigators and school officials did not immediately know why the man indiscriminately fired into the crowd with a shotgun and two handguns Thursday, wounding 15 people and sending panicked students fleeing for the exits before killing himself.
“We have no motive and I have no way of knowing what the motive was,” University Police Chief Donald Grady said.
At one time I was very against arming teachers or allowing qualified students to carry on campus. I’m not any more. These maniacs go to those schools KNOWING that their’s will be the only gun there - until police arrive. And that can take minutes.
If you know anything about guns, or ever fire on a range, take any semi-automatic pistol with, say, two extra loaded magazines, and see how long it will take you to fire every single round in those magazines. It doesn’t take but a few seconds. Then imagine firing into a crowded room filled with unarmed people.
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
This one, like some others before him, even stopped to reload. One gun. That’s all it would have taken. But that campus, like all the others, is a “gun free zone”.
To everyone except the killer.
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The fruits of “gun free zones”.
This is strange, I heard a live report from NIU yesterday saying that the campus police were armed.
These last few “incidents” have convinced me that it’s time for me to get a concealed weapon permit. I don’t feel like getting shot just because some pinhead with a master’s degree didn’t take his “meds.” The liberals can do that because they are more tolerant and understanding than I am.
I know weapons. I collect weapons. I can shoot weapons very well...pistols..rifles...shotguns...I have a CCW permit. I could go into any gun free zone and probably beat the record set by Whitman or the VT killer. I am sane and believe in God and I will not do this. I have in the past stopped someone from doing this but if I go into a gun free zone I am stripped of my experience and right to defend myself and my family and friends. When are the liberals going to see that it takes a good person to stop a bad person from maximizing their evil?
Whether campus police are armed or not is really irrelevant unless the college has a sufficient number of them to be in every classroom in a matter of seconds.
When your life will end in a few seconds, you can count on the fact that armed response will be available in just a few minutes.
So when are we going to blow the whistle on the drug pushers?
I'm talking about the "legal" drug pushers: the pharmaceutical companies, their protectors and colleagues - DC politicians and their distributors, the medical profession?
The first headline today was" 
NIU gunman stopped taking medication
By this afternoon, that headline has been changed to "gunman's rampage baffles friends
The media got their marching orders - as usual.
the short reference to drugs is way down in the story.
Do a GOOGLE on drugs young shooters
and do some homework.
It's time for the victims of these shootings to file a class action suit on the drug companies.
These side effects of suicide and violence are well documented and known/acknowledged by the drug companies and the doctors- but money trumps all.
Almost every single case of these shootings have involved young people on these drugs - but if you don't capture the very first mention of the story - you will miss the common denominator - LEGAL DRUGS - then the drugs connection is quickly squashed. And then the libs scream for gun control.
Our children have become the new cash cow for the drug companies - and they have powerful protectors and connections with the FDA and others in DC.
WAKE UP AMERICA!
Save our kids...
BTW - for anyone who wants to blame the parents for their kids being on these meds...take Ritalin, for example. If the school decides, along with it's cohorts, that the kid should be on meds and you refuse, they can and HAVE been charged with child abuse and can and HAVE had the children taken from the family.
WAKE UP AMERICA....
It's not guns.
It's LEGAL DRUGS PUSHERS
Another gun law doing exactly what it was warned that it would do ... create a free fire zone where the murderer had nothing to worry about because all the law abiding victims were unarmed.
For example, in this Australian paper - the drug connection is not only in the headline, but the first paragraph. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/world/gunman-stopped-taking-meds-before-rampage/2008/02/16/1202760644147.html
"The gunman who killed five people at a US university before turning the gun on himself had stopped taking his medication recently and had become erratic, police said today.
ditto the Irish Times, etc.:
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0216/breaking7.htm
For who is really to blame for these shootings, see my post # 9
WAKE UP AMERICA
Here’s something that would be funny if it wasn’t dangerous.
I work at a large northeastern state university. Today, we got an email from the Provost (Vice President of Vice Presidents) saying that the emergency text message system was up and running for campus emergencies.
I’ll bet everybody here can think of the first thing we tell students at the beginning of class...
Yup. That’s right. We have our students turn off the cell phones. No vibrating, no nothing.
We are, of course, a gun-free zone.
You are are that there’s a good 10,000 year history of violent mental illness before the invention of psychiatric medication, right?
This guy had to stop and reload 3-4 times and I find it baffling that nobody, out of the scores or hundreds of people who were close by and knew what was going on, could retain a presence of mind enough to watch and track this guy so that they could jump him when he reloaded.
They ALL have to reload. Same at VA Tech but is it just that everyone's THAT scared? or are they all just waiting for someone else to do something? or is it me being an armchair hero?
i don't get it.
1) If they were hiding, they may not have recognized the sounds of a gun being reloaded. Too many young people have no experience whatsoever with arms.
2) Our government K-12 schools have thoroughly succeeded in emasculating the young men.
People have 3 choices:
1) Flee
2) Fight back
3) Whimper and plead for your life.
Of the 3, which is the liberal response? Of the 3 what is being taught in our schools?
A group of people with no training or experience in an unexpected situation. Perfectly normal behavior to not think in a strategic fashion.
Means nothing. Street cops are armed and they get killed, too. In fact, cops have such tight ROE (Rules Of Engagement) that sometimes they're easier victims than a ccw citizen! The really odd thing is that the liberal sheep in the region seem to favor still stricter gun control laws as if that's going to help! I wonder what a cross between a sheep and an ostrich looks like? OBAMA territory for sure! Wonder how he'll react to this on the stump?
Goes to show that “gun free zones” do not work.
Friends baffield by shooter, shooting incident, and a possible “relationship break-up” which lead to shooter getting off “his meds”. URL posted.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23171567
When I was at the University of Alabama in the late 1970's almost all my friend's who were seniors had ccw permits issued by the Tuscaloosa Chief of Police and we all carried on campus. Guns were forbidden in the dorms but otherwise it was cool. Had Virginia Tech been pulled at Bama back then, the cops would have been needed for the paperwork and clean up duties. The Army & Air Force corps of cadets would've shredded any active shooter. We seniors ready to graduate and be commissioned were already fully trained in both the hardware and the tactics.
I can't believe that in the time since I graduated and was commissioned in 1980, the University has nearly thrown army ROTC off campus (from having the largest noncompulsory ROTC program in the South when I was there) and gone uber liberal in so many ways. Remember this is a campus that fielded a force to repel an invading union army during the Civil War and that force consisted of boys from the corps of cadets. They weren't exactly victorious, but they fought with honor and pride.
I think the great southern Universities have since filled their administrations with carpetbaggers & scalawags!
May you stand before God and man as my two precious grandchildren's killer if you pass any more gun legislation that will make me a felon should I own a handgun or any other gun for that matter.
Sincerely,
Mary Carpenter
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7CCB40F421ED4819
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/deaths_in_merced.htm
The only sound you will hear will be when a round is chambered and then it's too late to take action.
Once more...
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
—Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
Yesterday seven people lost their lives to a madman. It is tragic, but equally as tragic is the sheeple have abandon their responsibility for their own safety and outsourced that responsibility to a government that is not legally bound to protect them!
As hard as this may sound, they were complicit in their own deaths by the inaction not to secure their own safety.
Another shooting in a “gun free zone”. The folly of it all, if it were not so tragic.
I would venture that if you wanted to charge the assailant during an attack you would need to be less than 10ft away during the reload.
I would venture that if you wanted to charge the assailant during an attack you would need to be less than 10ft away during the reload.
Second, the City of Chicago bans handguns (as do the cities of Morton Grove, Wilmette, Oak Park, and Evanston). There are no gun stores in Chicago, nor can you purchase ammunition within city limits.
Third, Illinois is one of only two states remaining that do not allow concealed carry at all, much less on a state university campus.
Lastly, an over-21 concealed carry law probably wouldn't have helped since the NIU shooting took place in a classroom of freshmen and sophomores -- 18, 19, and 20-year-olds. The instructor, who was older, was among the first shot.
I am in favor of concealed carry for Illinois. I'm simply pointing out that it will be an uphill battle, given the mindset of public officials.
“Lastly, an over-21 concealed carry law probably wouldn’t have helped since the NIU shooting took place in a classroom of freshmen and sophomores — 18, 19, and 20-year-olds. The instructor, who was older, was among the first shot.”
You are assuming that all freshmen and sophomores are under 21? There are many ex-military out there who go to college after their military career is over. A little ancedotal evidence. My first college class was at 28 years old. I was not the only “older” freshman in my class either.
if I were a student, I would carry a loaded and cocked semi auto pistol in my knap sack...in the outer pouch so I could pull it out quickly.
“This guy had to stop and reload 3-4 times and I find it baffling that nobody, out of the scores or hundreds of people who were close by and knew what was going on, could retain a presence of mind enough to watch and track this guy so that they could jump him when he reloaded. “
Everyone remembers the part in the 2nd A about the right of the people to keep and bear arms. However, many of us forget the part about the well regulated militia. Militia being the people that is and well regulated meaning trained. We should be trained in the use of firearms and when to use them.
The reason that you find former military, policemen, firemen etc. responding to tragedies like this is not because they are better than the average person. It’s because they are better trained than the average person to respond to emergencies. I don’t know if you have ever been in combat but I can tell you from my experiences in combat that the reason you don’t panic is not because of bravery. It is because you have been trained what to do in different circumstances. This gives you the confidence to do it.
Do not blame the people that fled or were scared in this scenario. Blame the society that thinks a child pointing his finger at someone and yelling bang in a schoolyard deserves suspencion. These young people have responded exactly as they have been trained.
On my last post to you, I was just pointing out that in general all freshman and sophomores are not under 21. There will always be a contingent of older students. Ex-military who would be more likely to be well trained in the use of firearms and want a CCW.
I realize that does not matter in the people’s republic of Illinois because of all the things you mentioned. However, in many other states it would matter because there are freshmen and sophomores who would have CCWs.
Within living memory all campuses-high school and college- had active shooting teams, hunting clubs and the paraphenalia attached to such activities attracted no more notice than the paraphenalia attached to tennis, baseball or golf.
The value in these discussions is to reaffirm that formmer lifestyle and the reasons for it, not to enumerate all the reasons IT-CAN'T-BE-DONE.
The society of campus shooting teams was much more aware and prepared to deal with outbreaks of irrationality than the society of today.
It is a society to which we should return.
Best regards,
Nope. One of the students killed at NIU was 32 years old. I'm simply going with the percentages. And the percentages say that most in that classroom were under 21.
In the states that have concealed carry, what percentage (of those eligible) choose to carry concealed? .01%? .001%? So in a class consisting of 150 students, 140 under 21 and 10 over 21, how many, statistically, are carrying?
Zero.
He had a shotgun and three handguns. While reloading the shotgun or one of the handguns, the other loaded weapons were available to him.
I'll take the 50-50 chance of dying by exiting the room rather than the 100% chance of dying by charging the shooter. Live on to fight another day, if you will.
My daddy once told me, don't bring your fists to a gunfight.
“In the states that have concealed carry, what percentage (of those eligible) choose to carry concealed? .01%? .001%? So in a class consisting of 150 students, 140 under 21 and 10 over 21, how many, statistically, are carrying?”
You are right that we who understand the issue have to do a better job of educating the public. More qualified people need to be conceal carrying. However, there are usually a lot of former military who did 4 years in the military and are going to school. These are the type of people to be counted upon in a school environment IMHO.
Ultimately, our own personal security is up to us, the people. Not the cops or politicians or anyone else, but us. The better we understand that, the more people will get trained and conceal carry.
I’m not arguing with you there. If you have no weapon, your best course of action is to get the heck out of there. I only decry that our country is trying to nueter its men and teach them that firearms are bad. We need to reverse that trend and get people trained in the use of firearms and carrying. Only then, will this madness be mitigated.
I’ve never heard of a mass shooting at a gunshow. They only happen in gun free zones like schools and I don’t think thats a coincidence.
Another example of why universal military training is so critical to a free society.
Statistically, casualties drop when a unit under attack charges the assailant.
Options for assault are many and varied and begin with throwing books, purses, umbrellas and shoes and range through physically tackling the shooter.
In the highly charged atmosphere of these unilateral attacks ANY distraction can cripple or defeat the plan of attack.
A good offense is the best defense.
Your Daddy should have reminded you your mind is your best weapon, guns, knives, brass knuckles et. al. are accessories at best.
Your weapon is always with you and always available for use.
It is your mind. Everything else is an accessory.
If you run, you have tactically and psychologically disabled your biggest asset-your mind.
Best regards,
This is following the old rule that you arm the people with the lower intelligence level. You see the really smart people that go to a university can't be trusted with a gun. They may hurt themselves!
Ok let’s do this the simple way.
Arm every student with a dazzling laser.
Or even a strobe flash gun!
They ever work the numbers when an unarmed unit charges the assailant?
Let me know if that number works out to less than 100% casualties.
So when the Virginia Tech Shooter chained the building doors shut and blockaded the doors to individual classrooms with his body it is your contention the only way to avoid 100 % casualties (???!!!) is for the students to "give the assailant what he wants" and patiently line up facing the wall to await their turn for a bullet to the head?
Let me know how well that works out for your son or daughter or the children of your friends.
Virginia Tech? I thought we were discussing NIU. At NIU, the students had the opportunity to escape. Are you saying they should have charged the shooter instead?
The title of this thread is "Another Gun Massacre at a Gun Free College Campus.
162 students who attempt to simultaneously flee through three or four available exits while under fire in a lecture hall with no knowledge the assailant has not mimiced a previous Gun Free Campus shooting by locking the doors engage in the worst possible course of action.
162 students who simultaneously pelt a shooter at the front of the lecture hall with books, Ipods, shoes, chairs and any other available object irrevocably alter the dynamics of the assault in their favor.
Once the shooter has been diverted into an internal "failure cascade" ( a sequence of events from which even trained and experienced operatives would be unlikely to recover) a few students closest to the assailant would have an opportunity to physically confront/tackle/punch/disable said shooter.
The students at NIU had no knowledge they had an opportunity to flee and armed with the best and brightest minds of the next generation should have rejected the option of flight instantly.
Had they received Universal Military Training or even been exposed to the mindset common to a generation from which they are not far removed they would have known exactly what to do.
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