Posted on 02/23/2008 3:34:53 PM PST by TornadoAlley3
LOL... yea, some of em only went as far as Alabama.
Or Texas ;)
Back to you Hillary for swing two.....
Well...I assure you. Texas is going to correct that damn quick. Behold...The Texas Margin Tax.
Probably 50% of retail sales in U.S. counties bordering Mexico are from Mexicans.Whether they are spending their money on American vs. Asian consumer goods is another story. Sufficed to say NAFTA was not as bad as the alternative.
Nonsense, it’s alway a blame the union thing. The union can be pains, but it doesn’t matter when foreign competitors are allowed to dump on American markets. As of Friday, in the GM plant my husband works at as an engineer new hires will be paid $14.00 per hour with no benefits. The union agreed to this.
Maybe you think this is good; I don’t. We are going to get some kind of health care plan for sure now that good paying jobs have been eliminated, are in the process of being eliminated or shipped overseas.
It’s not just NAFTA. The whole free trade thing has hurt American business. All the promises about global trading were big fat lies. the fat cats in both parties became wealthy and the average worker lost big.
I say Obama has one thing right...tax the heck out of companies that move jobs overseas. Why should we be forced to choose between bad alternatives? Every other country protects its’ industry. The government has only a short term view point about trade and is willing to destroy its manufacturing base and ultimately this country in order to run up short term profits.
In her first attempt to socialize medicine, if I remember correctly, doctors and patients would be fined if a patient went to a doctor of choice and paid out of pocket.
Of course she would have her own team of hand-picked specialists.
Her failed effort would have made the Canadian plan look like a Sunday School picnic. Who thinks another opportunity for her to rule our lives would be any better?
Meanwhile, in Georgetown, Kentucky non-union workers at the Toyota plant are still making $28-35 per hour, have full benefits.. heck, they even have a 24-hr day care and university level classes AT the plant.
They also don’t need a 5th shift, because their absentee rate is darn near zero. And, they maintain a low inventory of cars because they adjust their production rate to meet forecasted demand.
It’s not “always the union”, management gets their share of the blame... for poor designs, bad work environments, and for allowing themselves to be bullied into accepting completely unsustainable union demands. GM is reaping what they have sown... and, they have BILLIONS more in losses to go before they get turned around... IF they can even do it.
Those jobs weren’t shipped overseas... they moved to states with more favorable business environments and were SELECTED away by customers deciding to purchase higher quality, foreign-made cars.
But, NO.. I DON’T think, it’s “good”.
That's a simplistic answer that sounds great when a guy like Obama preaches it at a rally... but, in the real world, it's not that easy.
Most companies that move some jobs overseas, also still have lots of jobs here. If you start "taxing the heck out of them", they'll just go ahead and move ALL their jobs, and the company headquarters overseas as well. That will really help things.
How about this: LOWER the corporate taxes, or give more tax incentives to move jobs BACK here from overseas. THAT, might actually improve things.
When it comes to business, the Dems always seem to have it backwards.
Let’s not forget “the Mistake by the Lake” (Cleveland), made infinitely worse by none other than the “Boy Mayor”, Dennis Kucinich. In case anyone’s keeping score, much of Cleveland’s (and Ohio’s) past and current problems are an illustration of the 3,000,000,000,000,000th failure of Socialism as an ideology.
New hires in GM will receive fourteen dollars per hour and no benefits starting last Friday. My husband works for the car industry as an engineer. I can tell you, foreign companies do not follow trade rules and nothing is done about it. I know of examples that I have witnessed first hand.
The reason Toyota pays the wages described by you is because it used to be the going wage in the auto industry. When this is no longer true...they will cease to provide this sort of compensation.
If large companies stop paying people middle class type wages then you can count on some form of national health care. What choice will their be? Do you think people making 14.00 per hour can afford health care premiums?I say give tax breaks to companies that take care of their employees in a reasonable manner and tax the heck our of companies that move jobs overseas. Also, companies that hire illegals should be responsible for their employees health care and social service costs-not the tax payer.
Companies that have the robber baron mentality-Walmart is a prime example- and do not provide any sort of health care while paying their employees low wages in order to reap very large profits will usher in a era of socialization. Their behavior is immoral if not illegal in my opinion. Corporations used to behave in a responsible manner; this is no longer true. Unfortunately, irresponsible, short sighted behavior will lead to government regulation which is never a good idea.
In my lifetime, I have seen the steel industry, the electronics industry, and the garment industry destroyed because of the dumping of foreign products. The auto industry is on the ropes and may not survive. The good jobs the global economy was supposed to provide have not materialized. Instead we see jobs in the customer care, tech and other industries being shipped overseas or we see companies using H1 visas to hire cheaper foreign workers. We see large companies like Home Depot and others no longer providing health care for their employees. McCain has said that displaced workers should be ‘retrained’. He would provide funds. I have heard this for years. My question is retrained for what- Walmart greeters? A great country must have industry to remain great. A country with a consumer driven economy will not remain an economic power.
At the moment, the tax code favors companies that move jobs overseas. I agree with you. I would like to see employers who act responsibly rewarded with tax incentives. How about increase corporate taxes on those who move jobs overseas while lowering such taxes on companies that remain in the Unite States. While we are at it, let’ improve trade agreements and actually enforce them on foreign competitors who basically have open American markets...while American companies still face closed markets.
People in Massachusetts are the first in the country where it is against the law not to have health insurance-Romney’s idea. It has not worked. Obama referenced the fact that people who can not afford the premiums have been fined and had their wages garnished. This is exactly what Hillary’s plan would do.
Whew.... there’s a lot in there to respond to, nyconse....
Let me start with a coupld of qucik statements:
1) Wal-Mart indeed does now offer limited health care coverage to its employees. And, I would say, Wal-Mart’s #1 dedication is to maintain LOW PRICES, not “huge profits”. They do make money... yes... but, their profit margins are pretty tame compared to many companies.
2) The people I know who work for Toyota LOVE working there. It’s absolutely the strangest thing I’ve ever seen. If only American auto managers could steal a few ideas.
I am an engineer (Chemical type) who’s been blessed to be in the management feild for the past 15 years or so. In my experience thus far, companies aren’t LOOKING to move jobs overseas.... we’re looking to survive.. to compete. There are many, many factors that go into factory location decisions. I’ll tell you one major one that is helping right now.... The weak dollar. A weak dollar lowers US manufacturing costs relative to the rest of the world and encourages factory siting here.
Health care has become one the largest cost for many US companies. It is a HUGE problem. It is the COSTs that are causing some companies to decide that it’s just not the companies responsibility anymore. It hasn’t always been true that a job came with health care. This is a fairly new custom that developed.
Who says it’s the best way? Maybe, if no one received health care at work, we’d have a better system, with more incentive to keep cost down. I don’t know the answer to the health care mess. My plan is: STAY HEALTHY! (so far, so good). But, I KNOW turning it all over to government would be a disaster. The freebies and discounts demanded by government for the people on their dole are a HUGE part of what’s driving up the cost for the rest of us.
In my area, Walmart allows only a very few to be ‘full time’ workers. Thus, I would say over 90% of employees do not have coverage. The taxpayer picks up the tab.
I have no doubt people like working for Toyota now. They may not like it so much in the future as wages are driven down. Also, Toyota is subsidized by their government and allowed access to our markets. Japan continues to prevent American cars from entering their markets. Japan actually sells cars at a loss in the USA. They are able to charge more for their cars at home because the market is closed. The Toyota plants employ far less Americans then any of the big three, and the money goes home in the end. Also, Toyota has a history of corporate theft. I can tell you in a Tarrytown New York GM plant which is now closed, one of the former workers is just getting out of jail for selling information to Toyota. Toyota of course faced no penalty.
Staying healthy is a good plan, but it does not always work. As for US business deciding that it is not their job. It probably should never have been their job. However, this is the reality. The health care market will never have a chance to bottom out because long before that America will have some sort of national health care in place. I don’t favor this approach, but this is the reality. I don’t want to hear businesses complain when they are forced to subsidize some sort of badly run health care system. They brought it on themselves with their short sighted policies.
When companies do well, they want to maximize their profits with no thought to the social turmoil some of these policies are likely to create-such as the end of the pension and health care system. Also, they do not feel the need to reward hard work with pay raises in these circumstances, but let there be one downturn and people are laid off immediately. When they do badly, the CEO’s still reap huge profits. This is not free market. This is excessive greed, and it’s bad for the country and will surely lead to more regulations-not something I favor. Mike Huckabee said something not long ago about how we need more laws now because people do not behave morally. I think this true of individuals and lately corporations. Sorry for the long post and thanks for your reasonable reply.
Wow... I’m afraid we just see the world in different ways. I have a Walmart Supercenter about 2 miles from my house. I called today, and spoke with the General Manager. He told me, “ Approximately 70% of their employees were elgible for their health care coverage. Around 60% of their overall employees have signed up.” It’s not the greatest policy, but... it doesn cover major medical expenses. He told me they are working on a special option for “part-timers”.
As for Toyota selling cars in the US at a loss... I’m sorry, I just don’t believe that. Successful companies like Toyota are not in the business to lose. They ARE making money... and they pay taxes both HERE, and at home. Meanwhile, literally 100’s of millions of dollars go into the LOCAL economy here in the form of payroll, and business services. I’d 100% rather have a Toyota factory in my town than a Ford plant (I’ve got one of those 2 miles away too... we keep waiting for them to close it)
I can’t believe you would say businesses are bringing on a National Health care system due to short-sighted policies... simply.. wow. Businesses COMPETE for good employees. They offer, or stop offering health care (and other benefits) depending on what they have to do to attract employees. I think, you are completely overlooking the role of GOVERNMENT in the current health care mess. Medicare and Medicaid, over-regulation, and lawsuit abuse are far more to blame than businesses who decide they can no longer ‘absorb’ health care costs that are increasing at >15% per year.
As for the way businesses operate... again, WOW. You and I certainly have different world views. Personally, I have been laid off twice, and I’ve had to lay off (or fire) 12 people in my career. It SUCKS no matter which side of it you’re on. I’ve NEVER known a manager who relished letting people go. I strongly believe, 99% of the corporate managers in America DO have a sense of social obligation. (Well... maybe 98% ;-) Almost NO ONE wants to close plants or cut people’s wages. It’s a sign of defeat.
My experience has been: When I’ve worked hard, and been successful, I’ve been rewarded. When my companies have been successful, it’s worked out good for me. MOST good companies today have a variable portion to compensation that rewards most, if not all, employees when company targets are exceeded. They’re not all perfect systems, but... they recognize and encourage success.
I’m sorry for you that you’ve been stuck in some part of the economy that doesn’t reward performance (ie: Unions, for instance) But, this in NO WAY reflects my experience in the business world, and I’ve worked for 5 different firms... including Dow Chemical and Monsanto.
I hope you find a better place.... soon... before you become an Obamabacker
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