Vanity: Requesting FReeper Advice on Friend's Firearms Bust

vanity | 02/27/2008 | rogue yam

[sourcery]

As originally interpreted, the US Constitution forbids a criminal conviction in the absence of proving mens rea beyond a reasonable doubt (because that was what English Common Law required at the time.) Of course, as in so much else, that no longer always applies.

[steve86]

Gross Misdemeanor?

[Atlas Sneezed]

LOL. Nobody was asking the unfortunate gentleman to account for the whereabouts of all of his weapons. Just the one he had on him in his carry on bag. Too funny.

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Ha-ha. Let’s put him in prison for forgetting.

[angkor]

>>>>Good lawyers are worth their weight in gold.

Yes they are.

My only extended exposure was during a contested divorce decades ago.

The cheap poseur friend-of-a-friend bloviating Irish lawyer caused a lot of unneeded anguish over many months including (I discovered after his replacement) the failure to even file some fundamental court documents.

His replacement was an ultra-expensive younger female war machine whom I began to call Dragon Lady. I was so confident in her strategy that I hired her and immediately went on a sailboat vacation for three weeks in the Carribbean (no phones, computers, or faxes).
Meanwhile she went into immediate (and pricey) action by getting subpoena on everything and everyone including my own employer’s company officers. On return she had about three feet of documents, more than one dozen witnesses, and several very threatening hole cards. Also wifey’s (creepy) attorneys were begging for a meeting.

I guess it’s tough to run an $8,000 divorce lawyer bill in 4 weeks, but she did, and it was very noisey in addition to being worth every single penny.

My wife’s lawyers settled at that meeting very much in my favor, after almost a year dishing out the BS. It could have gone much worse for them, and Dragon Lady had the case all laid out on the conference table in minute detail.

Always get the best lawyer you can possibly find, even one you think is “too expensive”.

[angkor]

>>>I’m not sure how much value there will be in the specialized firearm knowledge. The law is clearcut.

Well I’m not sure either.

But I’m sure the attorney I URL’d above will know, and will tell him what he needs to know, even it’s just a referral to a more general criminal lawyer with a good knowledge of that jurisdiction.

I always start from the top and work down from there. It can’t hurt.

[andy58-in-nh]

I don't usually travel with firearms, as most of my frequent flying is on business. I have been through MHT enough to be on a first-name basis with the TSA people, who are quite polite and efficient. I can understand why Logan would be difficult, a. because it's in Massa-gunhating-chusetts, and b. because of those little security snafus back in '01. My advice would be to call the airline in advance and ask them about their policies. The TSA does allow airlines to set more stringent requirements than the law otherwise allows, so it would be wise to know the rules. Then, be sure to declare the items at check-in, including both firearms and ammunition. Also, insure that your suitcase has an external safety lock and ask the check-in rep if the destination airport will require any special handling or instruction.

It's a PITA these days, to be sure. Hell, I got taken out of line once at the security checkpoint because I had my liquid containers in the wrong size plastic baggie (not at MHT, but you get the idea), If you can sneak onto a commercial jet with 3.5 oz. of toothpaste instead of just 3.0 oz., then the terrorists win. Sure beats "profiling" though, huh?

[steve86]

I agree.

I would definitely want the best “firearms” specialist in the country if the ATF has disputed the legality of a component of one on my military rifles, say. OTOH, the expertise might come in the form of a professional witness.

[Las Vegas Ron]

In a sane country, your friend would be asked to show his CCW permit and asked if he would be willing to assist in case of an emergency. Then he would have gotten preferred seating on the flight.

Just thought I'd dress that up a little

[HawaiianGecko]

"I got taken out of line once at the security checkpoint because I had my liquid containers in the wrong size plastic baggie"

I managed to be taken out of line writ-large in '87.  I was visiting a large client of mine in Pittsburg at a time when they had just purchased a fire extinguisher company.  At the time halon was pretty much only used in computer rooms, but they were preparing to market personal halon fire extinguishers and gave me two of them.  About the size of a 16 oz beer can with a handle and pin.

This was before 2001 of course, when you could run through an airport like O.J., throw your garment bag and brief case on the belt, quickly grab them and run up the ramp to bang on the closed door of the plane until the stewardess opened it.

Anyway, I wasn't politely asked to step aside.  I was in a full jog when a really big SOB tackled me from the side crashing both of us  through a door, into some chairs and into a vending machine.  Needless to say I missed my flight and lost my fire extinguishers, but after a good laugh and demonstrating to one of the guards that he couldn't light a cigarette if I sprayed the area with a bit of halon, I was let go with no need for an attorney.

 

[FreeInWV]

Your friend needs a good lawyer. Regardless of the circumstances, the authorities will by by the book and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Sadly a family friend of ours had a similar problem. I know the guy who carried the gun through Dulles last month. He was responding to a family emergency and had driven for a long time with no sleep. He went through security and then realized that he had a loaded pistol in his bag. He is a law abiding guy (very respected in the community) so he went back to security and declared it. TSA promptly arrested him.

Had it been me, I’d have gone right back out and checked that bag without saying anything. But since he wanted to do the right thing, he got arrested in the midst of a family emergency. I do not know what eventually became of it.

The moral seems to be, don’t be trusting and attempt to do the right thing. Instead, do what is in your best interest. That is the advice I would give to your friend.

[The KG9 Kid]

If it's any consolation, under the penalties of RCW 9.41.300 your pal is looking at a gross misdemeanor charge and not a felony.

If he's lucky, he may actually be able to keep his CCW permit but he can probably say adios to whatever gun he was carrying.

Sounds like this is gonna cost him about $10k and some community service time when all is said and done. Very similar to a DUI charge. I hope for the best and he'll escape a harsh penalty like the one I mentioned.

[Ramius]

I don’t carry when I fly, and I still know everything that I packed and have in my carry-on luggage.

Dang, it's a shame he's not perfect like you.

In my experience the most dangerous people are the ones that believe they're invulnerable to mistakes.

[Syncro]

I had a somewhat similar situation some years ago.

It concerned myself and another person, and we owned a house together that we lived in.

It dragged out for a year, with her trying to force me to sell the house and split what little money it would net us.

Part of her motivation was that I wanted to keep the house.

I ended up buying her out for a fair price to both of us.

When the lawyers and the two of us set down together, I remember the last conversation she had with her lawyer.

She said, Can’t we get a better deal?

He looked at her and said, His lawyer is a lot more expensive than I am.

Cost me about 5% of what I eventually gained from the house.

Getting the best lawyer at what ever price necessary is usually a winning situation.

I like your story, very entertaining!

[Ramius]

but how do you forget where you have your guns?

In my experience it's not so much that you can forget where they are, but that it becomes such a natural part of your stuff that you're not thinking every second "I have a gun". Of course you still know that, and in an alarm situation your hand instinctively knows where to go to draw. But the part about "I'm going in a place that doesn't allow guns..." doesn't connect in time.

I carry every day now, and I've carried on and off for over twenty years. I've never inadvertantly carried a gun into a restricted area-- but I've come close. A few times I've been just about to go through the door of a tavern to get a beer... and just caught myself and turned around to go put it in the truck. I can see how it can happen. In no case had I forgotten about the weapon. It was the ~restriction~ I wasn't thinking about.

I ~have~ accidently carried a knife on an airplane after they were banned. I've also lost a knife at security that I hadn't found in my pre-flight bag check. I checked the bag, thoroughly I thought, but not thoroughly enough. I've got lots of knives and I usually have two or three on my person, and again, it's not the knife that gets "forgotten" but the "restriction" that doesn't get connected.

IMHO

[deuteronlmy232]

You might want to visit this site; http://carryconcealed.net/legal/ they list things state by state.

[nicmarlo]

Any time any person says anything to the police, everything and ANYTHING that is said will be and/or could be USED AGAINST YOU in a court of law.

He’s already given a statement at the airport. Whatever is said in that statement will also be/may also be used against him in a court of law.

I suggest he immediately seek out and at the very least, speak to if not retain a competent criminal defense attorney.

[Squantos]

He’s toast.........Not too beat a dead horse but there is no excuse for ever forgetting you have a firearm on you or your person. Never.

Sorry it happened too a good guy but per the events I have seen nation wide he will lose his license and get a felony rap I believe.

His only defense (remote) is IMO to ask why a set of nail clippers, too much lotion or liquid forbidden is taken from a passenger and they are allowed to proceed if those items are on the same list as a firearm, knife etc and the person with a firearm is arrested !!

Ask why if a liquid is considered a possible IED materials threat and the passenger is allowed to board why is it that a licensed handgun can’t be returned to the persons vehicle or stored in an airport locker till you return.

I know the exception too such a rule would be an IED but if the person is licensed ....an exception should be made IMHO.

One more reason never to use commercial air again !

Good luck !

[An Old Man]

Try these guys. Do not attempt to handle this yourself. Firearms law is not for amateurs.

Semper Fi
An Old Man

[Wings-n-Wind]

Not trying to sound callous, but how do you forget where you have your guns?

**************

Senior moment?

[DoughtyOne]

That’s exactly what I was going to say and I think it’s very sound advice.

Too many times folks think, “Well, I did it, I really screwed up so I’ll plead guilty and count on the mercy of the court.” WRONG!

If this guy is a good upstanding citizen, his attorney may be able to get the charge reduced, and that will protect his gun rights, which right now are his most exposed assett IMO.

I doubt they’re going to throw the book at thim, but his license is on the line.

Attorney from Washington, an absolute must, and a good one who knows the court system and even players well, will important here.

Don’t go the discount attorney route on this one. It’s too important.