Posted on 03/01/2008 3:28:56 AM PST by PeaceBeWithYou
I agree. People around here don’t understand that 3000 acres is nothing. Tiny. And there is something amiss about this price.
At $14,700 per acre perhaps thatt’s a typo and it’s really Brandon Wolfswindel.
The units of measure for electricity: Watts, Kilowatts (1000), Megawatts (1 million), Gigawatts (1 billion), Terawatts (1 trillion).
2005 total generating capacity, United States: 1,067,019 megawatts (1.06 terawatts) (MW)
This plant: 280 megawatts.
Number of these plants needed for entire united states: 1,067,019/280 = 3810
Simple match check: This plant is supposed to serve 70,000 homes. There are 126,000,000 housing units as of 2006. That translates to 1,804 of these plants, leaving about 2000 plants to handle business needs.
I will note that I found web pages claiming residential use was itself over 1 trillion watts, but I also found pages claiming Nuclear was 100 gigawatts and that this was 20% of our enerfy, which means 500 gigawatts total. I'm trusting the government figures over other sources, and assuming the "residential" use of 1 trillion was actually TOTAL use of energy.
Total number of acres needed: 3810*1900 Acres = 7,240,000 acres.
Now, acres are already a squared distance. 640 acres is about one square mile. So total square miles needed: 7,240,000/640 = 11,312 square miles.
Total square miles for Arizona: 113,642 square miles of LAND
So we need to cover just about 10% of Arizona to completely meet the needs of the country, at an operating cost just a bit on the low end of the current average cost of electricity.
Downside -- we can't transmit power efficiently over long distances.
I think it will amaze people to realise that we can meet the entire needs of the country with 10% of Arizona. That is better than wind power.
That would be a peak cost.
The real significant news is that the power company is taking on that additional load into their grid loading system for those periods.
BTW, it also impacts the availability or accessibility of the grid to homeowners who want to install PV. Let’s say a typical home produces 4kW, with 1kW available to the power company. 1,000 homeowners could produce 1 MW. 250,000 homewowners could produce the same amont of power during the same periods.
The grid though might not be able to take that much as demand may have already been met, during the daylight hours in question.
Culturally, there is a trend to shift all residential and commercial construction to promote incorporation of solar PV into std design. If the grid has already used up available capacity during those times, then this becomes an inhibitor to promoting solar PV collection in that region.
On the other hand, by an outside investor putting up the capital, if not subsidized, would save the taxpayer that subsidy.
I would do that deal. All profit after 10-12 years.
I wonder what happens to the power at night.
I presume that parts of it are developed, driving up the cost. They would want utilities already available, and roads. Of the 3000 acres, they are using 1900 for their plant’s mirrors, which leaves 1000 acres for something.
The cost does seem a bit high otherwise, but I don’t see any reason to think this company is stupid or had stupid advisors who couldn’t set the correct price for the land they were purchasing.
From http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/related/77596
Abengoa Solar Inc., a Spanish technology company that has several smaller solar-thermal projects in Spain, North Africa and the United States, will build and run the Solana Generating Station.
Solana will use 2,700 “troughs” of mirrors lined up across former alfalfa farmland, focusing sunlight on tubes in the middle of the troughs.
The tubes will be filled with a petroleum-based chemical that will heat up to 735 degrees, and transfer their heat to water, making steam and spinning turbines in two 140-megawatt generators. The petroleum liquid is reused in the tubes, not burned.
The plant also will use molten salt to store heat and continue generating electricity for as long as six hours after the sun sets. That’s key in Arizona, where residents use the most electricity between 5 and 6 p.m., when the sun is low in the sky and common solar panels struggle to generate electricity.
To meet peak demand, utilities buy expensive energy from natural-gas plants.
“This will displace our most expensive form of generation,” Brandt said.
However, solar plants cost more than coal, nuclear or even the most efficient natural-gas plants for the amount of electricity they generate.
APS will pay about 14 cents per kilowatt-hour, compared with about 10 cents per kilowatt-hour from natural-gas plants at peak demand.
The premium is worth it because coal and natural-gas prices are unpredictable, and emissions from those plants likely someday will be taxed for their contributions to global climate change, Brandt said. That makes predictable solar prices attractive.
Looks like it was irrigated alfalfa farmland.
I am not an expert on land values in Arizona, but $14,700 per acre for empty desert land seems like a lot.
Any AZ FReepers know more about the price of land around Gila Bend?
5 sq miles of irrigated alfalfa farmland is a fair amount of land.
Well, if my long division is correct, that comes out to $14,285.71 per house for the first year. Then it is free after that, right?
Wolfswinkel faces $171M judgment
The case involves the 2003 sale of 13,500 acres along the parkway, west of Phoenix, to WVSV Holdings, controlled by Wolfswinkel's sons Brandon and Ashton.I just quoted this because it shows the price of some land in 2003: 13,500 acres for 74 million. That's considerably less than the 3000 acres for 45 million they just got. But it was interesting to read about this family's misfortunes.The Wolfswinkel group paid $74 million for two parcels, including 10,000 acres owned by 10K LLC, which includes Franke, Beus, Baldwin, attorney Paul Gilbert, investor Bill Pope and others.
Let me guess, actual desert with cactus & horny toads is government owned and protected.
$14,286 per household is kinda high considering it will have to be replaced on a regular basis as they break and wear down.
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Ammortized over 20 years it isn’t bad ,, especially as the plant will need fuel only to keep the water boiling at night,, this is a huge black (ceramic?) boiler in the center of a field of mirrors ,, nothing to be replaced at a regular basis,, just Juan with a dustrag to keep the reflected heat from falling off.
Great, now we can stop drilling in Alaska.
Just a little interesting etymology in correcting your choice of words. 640 acres is about a ‘section’, while one square mile is precisely 640 acres.
The history of the mile went back to the Roman legions, where a mile was 5000 ped later became the English foot. This continued till the time of Queen Elizabeth, when farmland was measured in furoughs. A furough-length being 660 ft or ten chains was a typical unit of agricultural measure, later referenced as a furough-long or furlong.
The English, having a penchant for measuring systems divisible by prime numbers, appealed to the Queen to change the definition of a mile from the Roman mile or 5000 ped (feet) to 5280 ft or 8 furlongs, so that common law and property records could be more easily normalized with actual living conditions. The Queen then changed the definition of the English mile to 8 furlongs.
Now a furlong is equal to a measurement of 10 chains, and a chain is equal to four rod lengths, and a surveyor’s rod is 16.5 ft long. A chain was the width of a plowed field in one day of work or 66 feet.
This takes us back to the mile and the furlong.
A furlong square then provides an area of land which was made divisible by 10, so that unit of measure is the acre. So a square furlong is equal to 10 acres.
A mile is equal to 8 furlongs, so a square mile is equal to 8 square furlongs, squared or 8x8x10 = 640 acres.
In agricultural terms, the a square mile or 64 square furlongs, might be interrupted by various terrain features, so originally, that area wa referred to as a ‘section’.
Meanwhile, townships were defined as about 6 miles square areas, so today in land surveying, we refer to Townships north and south, and range in east and west when partitioning county areas, with each township having 36 sections.
Since the Earth is egg shaped, these square areas are projected onto a curved surface, so each section is “about” one square mile, but the etymology of the square mile is actually and exactly 640 acres, while a ‘section’ is about one square mile.
33/2 feet per rod, 4 rods per chain, and 80 chains per mile.
The big item omitted from many cost estimates is the additional transmission capacity. In Texas, the officials will not even put a cost on the additional transmission capacity for wind farm projects. I have seen estimates as high as $3 billion for the additional transmission capacity. The dirty secret about generating capacity is the transmission capacity. If a power company tries to build a traditional plant, public officials will not approve transmission capacity. However, the same officials will bend over backwards to approve additional transmission capacity for their favored forms of power.
The rat plan involves much less future consumption. Future increases in energy costs will automatically lead to lower consumption. If higher prices do not work, the rats will just ration the limited power.
“Ammortized over 20 years it isn’t bad ,, especially as the plant will need fuel only to keep the water boiling at night,, this is a huge black (ceramic?) boiler in the center of a field of mirrors ,, nothing to be replaced at a regular basis,, just Juan with a dustrag to keep the reflected heat from falling off.”
I didnt read far enough and thought they were using solar cells. Still I doubt the $1 billion includes operating costs and maintenance. We have a good source of energy, oil and fission. Its proven and our infrastructure already supports it.
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