Guilt by Group

PoliGazette ^ | 17Apr08 | Jason

[claudiustg]

Claudia’s recent interview with an ex-member of the FLDS group in Texas renews my longstanding concern about what can happen when religious freedom is subordinated to societal prejudices about what is “normal”. Certainly, the sexual abuse of children is a legitimate matter for law enforcement and the FLDS group provides more than sufficient cause for an investigation. But our standard for that investigation should remain focused on the acts of individuals rather than an attempt to punish all members of an entire religious group based on assumptions of group guilt, as demanded by the state of Texas and Mr. Zettig. And we should certainly be careful about doing anything so sweeping based in any part on the testimony of those who claim to be former members of that group, as such information is often unreliable.

After over a decade of involvement with religious freedom issues, I state confidently that unfortunately, ex-members are often the least reliable reporters and interpreters about the beliefs and practices of a religion. This is a problem for two reasons.

First, ex-members often have an axe to grind against their former religion. Often, this is the reason they left in the first place. Other times, bias is a result of after-the-fact desires to justify and explain their decision to leave. Either way, they will tend to exaggerate negative recollections and refuse to accurately report more positive aspects.

Second, ex-members are prone to recruitment by those who hate the religion in question for other reasons. Because they have lost a community by leaving one religion (particularly an insular one like the FLDS), they are vulnerable to promises of community by another group for whom their prior membership is strategically useful. For example, those who leave the mainstream Mormon church often find themselves targeted for recruitment by the many anti-Mormon groups that rely on a supply of “ex-Mormons” to give the veneer of credibility to their longstanding distortions about Mormon beliefs.

Does this mean that Les Zettig is lying? Of course not. It merely means that the testimony of ex-members like Zettig should never be taken as the final and authoritative description of a religious group like the FLDS, especially when they are accompanied by the kind of overt emotionalism and sweeping assertions that are included in the above interview. Of additional concern is the fact that even if Zettig is reporting truthfully and accurately, his information is almost 40 years old, yet is being used to justify and support state targeting of an entire religious group (taking away ALL of their children) right now. At a minimum, we should reject instances of calls like Zettig’s to assume that first-hand statements of actual members of a religion should be subordinated in favor of the claims of those who hate that religion.

To accept anti-FLDS reports as accurate without any need for further investigation (as demanded by the state of Texas in their unprecedented actions and court pleadings) would lead inevitably down the road of the loss of all meaningful religious freedom, as minority religious practices are particularly vulnerable to exaggerations, distortions, selective reporting, and even pure stereotypes based on decades-old information. Any religion that departs from the norm would be vulnerable to exaggerations and distortions of ex-members and the application of sweeping communal guilt (i.e. making all members of the group guilty for the crimes of some of them).

Do any of you think that your religious group could stand up to such a standard? Are all Catholics guilty of the sexual abuse of children? Should Catholic children be seized by the state to prevent them from attending communion because some Catholic priests have abused children? Let’s get a grip on ourselves before suspicion congeals into bigotry and strips away normal standards of caution that inhibit us from taking children away from their parents without INDIVIDUAL evidence of abuse.

Consider that what we are talking about here is taking away the parental rights of 400+ parents based solely on the uncorroborated allegation of a telephone caller who cannot be found in person and an assumption of group guilt based on rumors and innuendos.

Even if it is found that there were some incidents of child abuse, should that result in the loss of the children for ALL members of the ENTIRE FLDS community? Should we also have the state seize the children of all Muslims because some Muslims have forced their daughters into sick “marriages”?

The entire conversation of the FLDS group in our media and blogosphere lacks a sense of perspective and a sufficient concern for the dangers of acting based solely on partial evidence and bald stereotypes. I’m embarrassed that Poligazette has so carelessly and credulously endorsed Mr. Zettig’s proclamations while being heedless of their broader implications for personal liberties.

Bottom line: Individuals who are found to have been guilty of the sexual abuse of children should be punished severely. Children who are found individually to have been abused or who are threatened with imminent abuse should be removed. But all members of whole religious groups should not be stripped of their rights simply based on the application of group guilt. That would be incompatible with the standards that we would demand in any other context. If we are a society that wants to truly claim to value religious freedom, simply being a member of a spooky religious group should not be illegal.

[claudiustg]

There's more on the website.

[nralife]

saving for later

[gidget7]

I cannot argue with any of this article.

[Colofornian]

From the article: After over a decade of involvement with religious freedom issues, I state confidently... and ex-members are often the least reliable reporters and interpreters about the beliefs and practices of a religion...those who leave the mainstream Mormon church often find themselves targeted for recruitment by the many anti-Mormon groups that rely on a supply of “ex-Mormons” to give the veneer of credibility to their longstanding distortions about Mormon beliefs.

Oh, we "get it." 10+ years in a certain field makes this author a "confident" statement-giver...but an ex-member of that group who may have been in the group for 10, 20, 30, 40 years--and perhaps has been granted even multiple generational nuances that are otherwise hard to acquire (conveyed by parents, grandparents, etc.)--why, of course, these folks are automatically written off as "often the least reliable." (Oh, and in one fell swoop that labels every group as equally off-base no matter who they are, etc....any "anti" groups are also automatically guilty of "longstanding distortions" ...vs. we are ever-so assured, the "confident" statements of this author).

But our standard for that investigation should remain focused on the acts of individuals rather than an attempt to punish all members of an entire religious group based on assumptions of group guilt...Consider that what we are talking about here is taking away the parental rights of 400+ parents based solely on the uncorroborated allegation of a telephone caller who cannot be found in person and an assumption of group guilt based on rumors and innuendos. Even if it is found that there were some incidents of child abuse, should that result in the loss of the children for ALL members of the ENTIRE FLDS community?

This author distorts & exaggerates the initial reasons for the large number of children bused away (exact words: "taking away the parental rights of 400+ parents based solely on the uncorroborated allegation of a telephone caller") This is sheer rhetoric designed to take the focus off of realities here. The fact is that ALL of the children of any household could be sequestered for questioning by CPS/authorities in claims of sexual abuse, whether 1, 2, 3, 10, 20, 30 or 400+ children live in a given facility.

Analogy: If you're in a van w/7 people & somebody in the back seat unbenownst to you pulls out a car & starts shooting, ya better believe all 7 of you will be detained & questioned! Now what if the same thing happened with a 50-person bus? (Yup). Would that be treated as some huge unjust, unfair thing if all 50 riders of that bus were detained? (No)

This is what I mean by total hyperbole and intentional exaggeration!!! (Use your head folks when writers try to appeal to your sense of fairness using emotional arguments!) In some of the school shootings in this nation, there's been times when the authorities have had to sequester normal students and even victims because of sorting out the identity issues (who's with the perps and who's not?, etc.)

The numbers in this case are only so high because fLDS choose to live in a communistic ("communistic" as in "commune") lifestyle.

But it's good to see an author's true colors...I mean, we wouldn't want such a person to ever become a "bleeding heart" for a likely underaged rape victim, would we? /sarc...

Do any of you think that your religious group could stand up to such a standard? Are all Catholics guilty of the sexual abuse of children? Should Catholic children be seized by the state to prevent them from attending communion because some Catholic priests have abused children?

More hyperbole and exaggeration. Do Catholic priests lived in households with children? (No, then why the faulty non-sequitor analogy?)

[Colofornian]

I cannot argue with any of this article.

I can. Plenty. See post #4.

[greyfoxx39]

From the SAME website as the story posted as the thread article: http://poligazette.com/2008/04/17/outside-looking-in/#more-4158

 

 

Outside Looking In

Filed under: General News, Lead Post, Lead Story — Claudia on April 17, 2008 @ 9:00 am CEST

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Poligazette is priveledged to give you an EXCLUSIVE interview with an ex-member of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS).

Les Zitting is a survivor. For decades he has lived with the memories and worked through the difficulties of someone brought up in the heart of a sect. He is the 6^th son of a woman who was herself the 9^th wife of one of the leaders of the FLDS in the 50s, Charles Zitting. His father died when Les was only four years old. His mother remarried, and Les has a total of 16 siblings and half-siblings, including an eldest brother who is still prominent within the FLDS and a sister married into the also prominent Jessop family and sisters and nieces married to Warren Jeffs.

He has graciously allowed himself to be interviewed about what life is like within the FLDS and his views on the situation currently underway in Texas.

Q. News reports say that abuse was commonplace within the sect, and that girls were forced to marry upon reaching puberty. Based on your personal experience and knowledge of the group, would you say this is an accurate portrayal or is it more sensationalist? Were girls being “married” before the age of 16 commonplace or the exception?

A. I would have to answer TRUE and some even much earlier than age 12.

Q. Is there any awareness inside the group that sexual relations between a very young teen and a man decades her senior is inappropriate? Do you know if girls feel it’s wrong in any way or do they simply accept it as “gods will”?

A. How can a boy or girl even question who does what, when the only thing you have ever understood is — we are the “Elite people of God” and our Leaders are in His “Perfect Will”. You do not even question!!

Q. As a boy growing up in the group, how different was your rearing to the girls? Are boys given special treatment in any way, do girls have to be obedient to boys or only to their “husbands”? If you reached adulthood within the group, did you as a man have any choice in who you could be with or was this entirely up to sect leaders? Is there anything akin to dating or physical relationships at all? Did you marry?

A. Girls were pretty much kept to the home and the duties of the Home, cleaning, cooking, taking care of babies, etc., etc. I was 20 when I left this Church. Several girls had their eyes on me and I knew it, but I was torn…… because I didn’t want to marry if I wasn’t going to stay … I wasn’t sure but I had to know first. I left in 1970 an unmarried man.

Les Zitting

A person choosing who they marry does happen but it is not the norm. Dating is out-of-line and does not happen “normally”. A person is assigned and in most cases married within days and sometimes even within hours. If a physical relationship happens it is against authority and not normal.

Q. What opinion do you have of the actions of the Texas CPS? Do you think that many children will cooperate to identify abusers or is the control over them to throrough?

A. Thank you TEXAS – but we’ll see… In time the could recover yes, but it will take months and in some cases, years. I am still dealing with my own personal emotions and this is 38 years later.

Q. The women who accompanied the children, presumably it’s to care for them, but is it also to ensure that they don’t speak or to make sure they don’t end up trusting outsiders?

I got heavily involved with issues of these Churches back in 2000. In 2001 I help rescue Caroline who was about to be married to Warren and she wanted out. We succeeded with this — This was my first experience with Jay Beswick (editors note: Jay was who put me into contact with Les, thank you as well)– Thank You Jay, you are a jewel !! We tried at that time, to get Utah and Arizona Officials involved but were unsuccessful. At this time Flora Jessop joined up with us. She had a sister that wanted out — we were not successful in helping her. This destroyed my confidence in Utah and Arizona and I pulled away from the issues. I knew this “snake” was much, much bigger than what we could do. I thank Texas for stepping in but I still question whether even Texas will or can do enough. — These issues go very very deep into human rights, civil rights and Religious Liberties. I do not see that even Texas will hang in there and STOP the abuses. Only time will tell.

As for the women; See the Polygamist women as they speak – these are their children but few tears if any. They have been taught since birth to show “no emotion”. How much deep, deep emotion do you see on them as they speak to the camera !!! NONE. Emotion is a bad thing – the Men don’t like it, so they have taught them to hold it back and they are good at it.

Q. Assuming children were maintained away from the cult from now on, what do they really need in order to adjust to the outside world?

A. The age of the child is the key factor here. Just hang in there with these kids – it will take time. I don’t know what ages we are talking. Any Children 4 and under will be OK for the most part, but above 4 there will be issues.

Q. How did you end up leaving the group? Do you still have any contact with your family within the FLDS?

A. When a person leaves the Church, they immediately are shunned by all. I lost my Family and all friends. I became “EVIL” as the rest of the planets population. I was now on “Satan’s” side. This was very tough for me. My actual exit happened when the Town Sheriff at that time (Sam Barlow) picked up myself and my younger Brother Paul and drove us from Colorado City to my Mothers home in Salt Lake City, Utah – To dispose us as we were “just a bit too spunky to stay in Colorado City”. Paul and I were very popular with kids our age and, looking back, I would have to say we were a “threat” to authority in Colorado City. We both had defied Authority on a couple of occasions and they needed to get rid of us – that is how we got disposed of – we were driven out of town, literally. Sam didn’t know it but he did us an “EMENSE” favor! Paul and I rebelled and left the Church – We both agree today that it was a good thing. I feel it was “God’s Mercy” on my brother and me, but then — I do believe God is real and always will…. too many proofs in my life.

Q. Any extra thoughts?

A. I have tried NOT to watch the news casts as these Polygamist women spoke. I knew there were LIES being spoken!!! As I watched, I asked myself, “How can you people, who claim integrity, honesty, and truth look into those cameras and tell the entire world that you don’t know of any under-aged marriages between girls under 16 to men 2 ,3 and even 4 times their age”. People need to and probably will go to prison for this. Texas has girls in their custody “right now” either pregnant or with babies and the girls are not 16 years old yet…. And the older women are saying to us all that they don’t know of this happening — they are liars !!! This has happened for DECADES !!!!

[metmom]

It merely means that the testimony of ex-members like Zettig should never be taken as the final and authoritative description of a religious group like the FLDS, especially when they are accompanied by the kind of overt emotionalism and sweeping assertions that are included in the above interview.

OMG!!!!!!!

[crazyhorse691]

The fact is that ALL of the children of any household could be sequestered for questioning by CPS/authorities in claims of sexual abuse, whether 1, 2, 3, 10, 20, 30 or 400+ children live in a given facility.

---

Sequestered is not what CPS does or is doing...they forcibly relocate children thru foster care based on an accusation that could be founded or unfounded which doesn't matter at that point. Don't let your disdain for cults legitimize the role of the state as the owner of children. I have seen far to many cases where the removal of children was based on an outright fabrication. And good luck fighting it in court.

[metmom]

Sounds like the author of the article is one of them.

[nowandlater]

Get those bastards Texas! I am so proud of my Momma’s state.

[stinkerpot65]

“Group guilt” is how the average CPS thug views every Christian family.

[Colofornian]

“Group guilt” is how the average CPS thug views every Christian family.

OK: Fact: when you have rape by marital pretense ("additional" wives--especially if they're underage--are not "legal" wives), this doesn't occur in a "vacuum" when they all live in the same compound.

That means you usually have a female accomplice--an enabler--like the "Moms" of underaged females being herded for this purpose. You have other males who are "solemnizing" these pretend marriages in the temple (leaders). You have many adults who are aware of these events & condone them simply because Simon (the "Prophet") said.

If that's not "group guilt" to some degree already, then folks have their heads in the sand.

[ricks_place]

A parent, who joins an organized child raping "sect", should lose child custody. FLDS is that "sect". God Bless your Mamma State, Texas!

[Elsie]

Oh, we "get it." 10+ years in a certain field makes this author a "confident" statement-giver...but an ex-member of that group who may have been in the group for 10, 20, 30, 40 years--and perhaps has been granted even multiple generational nuances that are otherwise hard to acquire (conveyed by parents, grandparents, etc.)--why, of course, these folks are automatically written off as "often the least reliable." (Oh, and in one fell swoop that labels every group as equally off-base no matter who they are, etc....any "anti" groups are also automatically guilty of "longstanding distortions" ...vs. we are ever-so assured, the "confident" statements of this author).

Dang!!!

This is EXACTLY the same attitude that comes from LDS headquarters in SLC!

We've seen it over and over on FR!

[MizSterious]

So, would you prefer to condemn these young girls to a life where they’re raped by some dirty old man at the moment they show puberty—and then forced to bear children even though their young bodies are not yet mature enough to handle that task? Others have stated the high birth defect and stillborn rate among this group. Is this what you’re advocating? Are you supporting those who will keep these girls in servitude for their entire lives, allowing no freedom of any form? You prefer this to CPS?

[stinkerpot65]

The men should be rounded up and put in prison. The women and children are victims, but they are the ones being punished by the CPS.