M4 does poorly in Army's own test

Seattle PI ^ | 4/20/08 | RICHARD LARDNER

[kiriath_jearim]

“The troops seem mostly satisfied with the AR. Once we had the cleaning issue resolved in Vietnam, I found the M-16a1 to be quite a nice weapon. We cleaned them with gasoline and lubed them with that LSA stuff and they worked fine.”

****

I was in the service years ago (USMC). The M16A1 usually jammed if sand got into the chamber via the ejection port. The ejection port doesn’t always stay closed when one is crawling through muck and mire. Dirt or wet sand can collect at the breech and a cartridge will not usually seat properly in the breech. Thus, the bolt face/extractor cannot lock onto the base of the cartridge and extract it. One is then forced to pull the charging handle rearward and lock the bolt back, remove the magazine, and insert one’s finger into the ejection port and wiggle out the ill-fitting cartridge—all because of some wet sand.

This would not be a problem on a rifle range, but if one is crawling to or firing from a position and the enemy is almost on top of one’s AO, one cannot say to a potential enemy “Please wait a minute while I remove my jammed cartridge!”

[Squantos]

Valid points yet if we can capture their ammo we probably have captured their weapons as well. If we are in such a pickle that our logistical support is lost then a common caliber need is IMO and experience a moot point. We be in deep doo doo if we have to revert too their ammo........:o)

Battlefield pickups considered beware the materials left intentionally by ones enemy. Free ammo in good condition may be just that......or maybeeeeee not......:o)

[NVDave]

For the Sierra 77gr Matchking loaded by Black Hills:

http://www.black-hills.com/rfactorynew.htm

Click on “.223” then look down in the lower right of the listed loads and you’ll see the civilian version of the M262. NB that this appears to be loaded to SAAMI maximum specs, not the M262 muzzle velocities.

For the Nosler round:

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=11&b=3&s=147

Scroll down to the bottom, and you’ll see their version.

[NVDave]

Pardon my ignorance, but what was the M1 Carbine necked down to 6.5 capable of? That’s a new one by me. Never heard of it before.

The last “new thing” I saw with the M1 Carbine round was a pistol chambered in M1 Carbine. One *heck* of a muzzle flash on an indoor range. Woof. Other than that, nothing terribly notable.

I used to have a M1 Carbine. Traded it in on a .17 HMR. The .17 HMR is a squirrel killing machine for this (now ex) farmer. There’s been nothing quite so well suited for the application (farmer killing rodents) as the .17 HMR. It has completely taken over from the .22LR rifles the job of killing ground squirrels on hay farms in Nevada in a few short years. The .17 HMR was the first product where I felt moved to write a “thank you” letter to the CEO of the company that created it, ie, Hornady. Wonderful product for what it does (kill squirrels and jackrabbits), IMO.

Love my .17 HMR, as you can tell.

The M1 Carbine? Never used the thing. Never was that accurate. Wondered why we (the US) ever made the thing. What as the point again? To replace a pistol? For me, a 1911 in .45 ACP always seemed to dispatch coyotes better than a M1 Carbine.

[Pistolshot]

The M1 carbine has had a number of wildcats tried for the case. It has been necked down to 224 and 5.7. Had the military not been so married to the .30 caliber club, the carbine might have turned out to be a much more efficient round than it was.

It was also the first attempt to replace the handgun in the rear echelon areas, and wound up in the front lines. Using a short-stroke inertia system for operation, it was reliable, it was the cartridge itself that was lacking. Limited range and ineffective as a stopper, had the military had any forward thinkers, it would have been a good base to create a necked down cartridge along the 6.5-6.8X39-45 dimensions.

We might possibly have been further down the ammo development road than we are now. But, the US army has it's own way of doing things, much to the detriment of the ground pounder.

[ctdonath2]

Good links; thanks!

[Gilbo_3]

You think I could get a bargain basement deal on that 'flood damaged' vehicle ???

Could it defend at all from that position ???

[archy]

You think I could get a bargain basement deal on that 'flood damaged' vehicle ???

Oh no. That one's not all that bad, it'll take about two VTR *tow trucks* or three other tanks to pull it out IF the tracks will still spin, which it looks like it's wet enough that they will. I've seen tanks in MUCH worse than that.

Could it defend at all from that position ???

Sure. The main gun and gunners sight and rangefinder still work, the turret still rotates and the coax and AA machineguns and NODs are all functional, except for the driver's 'scope and, probably, vision blocks. The radios are intact, so they've got a dandy position for calling in supporting artillery or air cover if needed. They've just lost their mobility for a while, and if they prep it right before assistance arrives, can be out of there in 15-20 minutes.

[Gilbo_3]

WOWser...having buried pickup much less deep I could only imagine the chain/cable/winch strength needed to pull that guy out, although tracks are aggressive...

my main concern was recoil/crew endangerment from the big gun in such a situation, but true to form, GI tankers are resourceful and will overcome...

I guess in a sick scenario, cept for the mobility, that is the ultimate in 'hull down' position ???

[archy]

But either a breakthrough in propellant technology, probably caseless, …

As I recall, around 1980, the Marines were pushing hard for a rifle upgrade.

That was the JSSAAP program, of which I was a part as an Dept. of the Army civilian Ordnance employee, then as a Navy civilian armorer and consultant to the navy's contribution to project engineering efforts. The M9 pistol came out of it, as did the all-services adoption of the M240 as a tank and armored vehicle weapon, replacing the dreadful M73/M219, and eventually, the ground forces M60 machineguns. The Marines got the heavier barrel and adjustable sights they wanted on their upgraded M16A2 rifle, and the Army got a replacement for the .45 caliber M3/M3A1 submachineguns that had been carried in tanks since WWII, now that the 9mm M9 Beretta pistols were to be standardized. A couple of 9mm SMGS were considered around 1985, including a neat little version of the Uzi made by Ruger, and the then-common H&K MP5, but the Army got a cut-down version of the M16A2 to be called the M4 Carbine instead.

They were offered two options: continue with the M16 and minor changes (sights?) and wait 10 or 15 years for the next generation of rifle which would include caseless ammo, or get nothing. They took what they could get.

Sights, a grip improved for operation with gloves or mittens, 3-shot burst instead of full-auto, a better handguard [M16A1 handguards subjected to bayonet fighting preactice invariably crack and split along the bottom] and longer buttstock, and other hopeful improvements, major and minor. One alternative considered was a Product Improved H&K G3 about two pounds lighter than the German Army-issue version. Which the Germans dropped, along with their G11 caseless *spacegun* program when the wall fell and they had to re-equip all those former East German NVA troops.

I’m sure someone closer to the process will be along to fill in the blanks.

I was close enough to some of the JSSAAP projects to know that there's probably no one person whoi knows all the details of everything that was going on, and a couple of other pretty significant other *projects* were going on at the same time...as well as other ordnance programs and NATO equipment standardization replacement programs. I make no claim to be an *expert* but I'm a *reasonably Knowledgeable Individual.* [RKI]

BTW – At the beginning of WW II, those .45-70 single shots were still in National Guard armories. Your great-grandkids will be training with M4s some day.

During the early days of WWII, many defense industries [including railroad bridges and tunnels and local airfields] had Office of Civil Defense guards organized and posted, and my granddad was a supervisor of one such detail, run out of his *essential War Industry*- the local milk creamery and ice house. The guards were in fact equipped with pre-WWI Trapdoor Springfields with three rounds each, with many, including my granddad, using personally-owned wrifles or shotguns instead. In his case, that was his .44 lever-action Winchester Model 1873 repeater with his .38 revolver being lent to his supervisor, which helpful act got grandda the second-in-charge job. Later they got M1917 bolt action rifles with ammunition headstamped 1918, and four .45 caliber Reising M50 submachineguns for the guards on the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad's Wabash River turnbridge.

After the war had ended, granddad found out that the metal stamping equipment used in the plant to press out foil milkbottle caps had been diverted to subcontracting, used to make metal tubes for torpedo detonators, then components for the Mark 53 proximity fuze, a secret development at the time said to be second only to the Manhattan Project in terms of bringing technological advantage to the Allies in World War II. The *silly* guard force efforts hadn't been quite so silly after all....

[archy]

WOWser...having buried pickup much less deep I could only imagine the chain/cable/winch strength needed to pull that guy out, although tracks are aggressive...

A towbar is preferred to cables, but cables are indeed carried for recovery ops. They're pretty hefty, around 1½-inch in diameter, about like these on the back of this Australian Leopard tank

The M88A2 Herky recovery vehicle, aka the *VTR,* has a turbine engine rated at a bit over 1000 HP, pretty close to what a late XX-Century railroad switch engine had for power, Herk details here: M88A2 Hercules VTR

my main concern was recoil/crew endangerment from the big gun in such a situation, but true to form, GI tankers are resourceful and will overcome...

Muzzle blast is pretty sporty with the main gun tube just a foot or two off the ground. If inclined to do any shootin' while stuck like that, I think I'd tend to do it buttoned up.

I guess in a sick scenario, cept for the mobility, that is the ultimate in 'hull down' position ???

Naw, that's just *Hull Defilade.* Turret Defilade has the tank in the goo clear up to the gun mantlet, and then there is a good chance there's no turret rotation possible, or at least advisable. There's also the condition known as *Cupola Defilade* in which the mudplane is even with the turret roof. Those take a little longer to get out, and are generally the result of hitting a bog with an active spring underneath it, in which case waiting to figure out what to do resolves the problem, but results in lots of unpleasant paperwork.

[Gilbo_3]

Cooooool info archy, thanks for the feedback...

[IncPen]

Same Designer?

[kitchen]

Thanks archy. Great information and an enjoyable bit of history.