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American Arrested as Nuclear Spy for Israel
Reuters ^ | 4/22/08 | Randall Mikkelsen

Posted on 04/22/2008 12:07:37 PM PDT by anymouse

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Leaked to put the scare in Iran?
1 posted on 04/22/2008 12:07:38 PM PDT by anymouse
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To: anymouse

Leaked to let Israel know that we ain’t gonna pardon the traitorous scumbag named Pollard...


2 posted on 04/22/2008 12:13:17 PM PDT by BullDog108 (A Smith & Wesson beats four aces)
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To: BullDog108

Timing is everything.

Notice what details that are provided vs. what Iran should be scared about.

Israeli F-15s took out the Iraqi and Syrian nuke facilities with conventional weapons while effectively slipping through Russian-provided air defenses. Iran should be rightly concerned that Israel would not hesitate to arm the F-15s with tactical nukes, in order to take out Iran’s nuke facilities. An 84 yr old Jew just enabled the U.S. and Israel to send Iran a potent message - don’t even think about it.

Samething happened with China with those “miss-shipped” nuke fuses sent to Tiawan.


3 posted on 04/22/2008 12:26:11 PM PDT by anymouse
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To: anymouse

The timing of this is very strange. Prosecuting an 84 year old man 23 years after the crime was committed? They had no idea of this for the last 23 years?


4 posted on 04/22/2008 12:30:10 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: anymouse
Samething happened with China with those “miss-shipped” nuke fuses sent to Tiawan.

No kidding. I never believed those triggers were "miss-shipped".

I also believe that both Taiwan and Saudia Arabia have nukes.

5 posted on 04/22/2008 12:39:11 PM PDT by BullDog108 (A Smith & Wesson beats four aces)
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To: BullDog108

and I’m not really sure about those unaccounted-for nukes that took a ride or two across country recently.


6 posted on 04/22/2008 12:56:52 PM PDT by KingLudd
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To: BullDog108

I didn’t know anything about that.

But I would be very pleased if Taiwan had nukes; of all countries (besides Israel), it needs them (and about 20 different delivery systems).

Taiwan at least gets to deal with rational enemies.


7 posted on 04/22/2008 1:07:56 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: anymouse

20+ years ago? What’s the statute of limitations on espionage? It isn’t “treason” because it wasn’t aid to a foreign government “we were at war with”.

I am against espionage and know that our allies are not always our friends. Just curious why this prosecution can continue but Jane Fonda is still walking freely.


8 posted on 04/22/2008 1:21:15 PM PDT by weegee (Vote Obama 2008 for a bitter America.)
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To: KingLudd

I felt the same way about the “joyride” Too many people involved, and too many security checks involved to screw up as badly as claimed. I think it was an intentional message.


9 posted on 04/22/2008 1:21:18 PM PDT by catbertz
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

High Volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel. or WOT [War on Terror]

----------------------------

Long time, wonder where this information has been buried, and why it came up now.

It the 84 year old traitor dies in prison, don't whine to me, he's had many years of undeserved freedom, a betrayal of those with whom he served.

Presuming he's guilty, of course, I suspect he is.

10 posted on 04/22/2008 3:30:41 PM PDT by SJackson (before we work on problems, have to fix our souls. Our souls are broken in this nation, Michelle O.)
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To: freedomrings69
If he gave the same info Pollard gave to Israelis, he should be prosecuted.

The Israelis took US nuclear secrets and gave them to the Soviets in exchange for Russians jews.

I am a big friend of Israel, but this unacceptable behavior from a friend.

11 posted on 04/22/2008 3:46:56 PM PDT by Perdogg (Reagan would have never said "She's my girl")
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To: weegee

He’s got 7 1/2 years to go.

JONATHAN JAY POLLARD 09185-016 53 White M 11-21-2015 BUTNER MED I FCI


12 posted on 04/22/2008 3:50:49 PM PDT by Perdogg (Reagan would have never said "She's my girl")
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To: anymouse
I presume that the F-15 modifications are those used in the Saudi Royal Air Force.

Espionage is treason. His retirement should be in Levenworth.
13 posted on 04/22/2008 4:04:46 PM PDT by rmlew (There is no god but G_d and Moses is his Prophet.)
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To: Perdogg
I have never seen any good claims on Pollard giving intel to the USSR or even his intel being handed over.
CIA and FBI people claim he handed over names of spies, the only problem being that he had no access to this information. A few years later we find out about Aldrich Ames. I'm not suggesting that Pollard should be let go, he shouldn't. I just think he was the fall guy for FBI and CIA counter-intelligence failure and malfeasance.

As for the Israelis who call for Pollard's release, they are either trying to sabotage US-Israeli relations, or they are proof taht not all Jews are intelligent.

14 posted on 04/22/2008 4:11:12 PM PDT by rmlew (There is no god but G_d and Moses is his Prophet.)
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To: anymouse

Let’s see. The policy of our leaders is against Israel having nukes but has long been actively involved in making sure that China, North Korea, Iran, Sudan and nations like that have nukes through student exchange, employment and trade policies.

Gotcha. No vote, and no respect for you all. [Spit]


15 posted on 04/22/2008 5:04:31 PM PDT by familyop
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To: rmlew

I heard this from the G Gordon Liddy.


16 posted on 04/22/2008 5:35:53 PM PDT by Perdogg (Reagan would have never said "She's my girl")
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To: rmlew
Espionage is treason.

Only when the espionage is on behalf of an enemy of the United States. Israel does not fit that category.

Please read the definition of "treason" - which for good reason is the only crime defined in the Constitution.

Though espionage on behalf of an ally is a crime, it should not be punished anywhere near as harshly as espionage on behalf of an an enemy.

17 posted on 04/22/2008 7:22:12 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: Cindy; TigerLikesRooster

ping.


18 posted on 04/22/2008 7:28:11 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar (Who would the terrorists vote for?)
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To: justiceseeker93

How severely would you punish espionage, stealing our national secrets, and giving them to a country we’re not at war with?

A stern letter? Something in your permanent record?


19 posted on 04/22/2008 7:28:57 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: rmlew
Why shouldn't Pollard be let go by now? I suggest he not be pardoned, but that his sentence be commuted to time served (which is now more than twenty years, much longer than sentences in other cases involving espionage on behalf of allies.). There would be no national security risk involved in letting him live out his sad life as a free man.
20 posted on 04/22/2008 7:29:18 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: Dog Gone
How severely would you punish espionage [on behalf of an ally]?

Barring very unusual circumstances, a prison term in the range of three to five years.

21 posted on 04/22/2008 7:31:59 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: justiceseeker93

That would encourage every “ally” to recruit spies. You could easily make it worthwhile for someone to spend five years or less in prison.

Pay me a million dollars (especially if tax free) and I’ll go to lockup for that period of time. Great wages for watching TV, and that’s only if I get convicted.


22 posted on 04/22/2008 7:42:04 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Jet Jaguar

Thanks for the ping Jet Jaguar.

Hang ALL spies in the public square, is my opinion.


23 posted on 04/22/2008 7:48:02 PM PDT by Cindy
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To: Jet Jaguar
I can only say, “Hmmm....”
24 posted on 04/22/2008 7:48:33 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster (kim jong-il, chia head, ppogri, In Grim Reaper we trust)
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To: Dog Gone

Puh-leeze. Doing five years of prison time is not a pleasant experience, especially for a “white collar” criminal, someone who is accustomed to at least a middle class standard of living. Plus whatever illicit income he had accumulated from his handlers would likely be confiscated in some form or another, and rightly so.


25 posted on 04/22/2008 7:50:58 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: justiceseeker93

We have to deter spying with a punishment so severe that nobody in their right mind would consider it. It has to ruin your life forever if you’re caught.

Treating it like stealing a car is ridiculous.


26 posted on 04/22/2008 7:54:42 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone
We have to deter spying with a punishment so severe that nobody in their right mind would consider it.

That should be the case for all crimes, but unfortunately there are people out there who would still do them, everything up to and including first degree murder.

Still, for the criminal justice system to be be just, there must be a principle of proportionality: the more severe the crime, the more severe the penalty - and vise versa.

From reading the US espionage statutes in detail, I come away with the impression that the law doesn't distinguish between various levels of espionage and their consequences very well, and so there are some defendants who may be get overly harsh or overly lenient sentences.

But I do know that at the time of the Pollard case, sentences for espionage for a first-time offender working for an ally usually were in the three to five year range. So I don't see my concept of an appropriate penalty in such circumstances to be radical or outrageous.

27 posted on 04/22/2008 8:40:35 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: Perdogg

I have no problem with prosecution of anyone who passes secrets including Pollard. I think the punishment should be proportional to the offense and the reality is that nobody has been punished the way Pollard was. Do you have any real evidence that the Israelis gave Pollard’s info to the Soviets? I have never seen any.


28 posted on 04/22/2008 9:39:28 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: Perdogg

But also remember that we have given both China and Russia design secrets for nuclear weapons and our NMD designs.


29 posted on 04/22/2008 10:47:00 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: familyop

One has to really wonder how many nuclear weapons spies are lurking in America, sent in by Iran, the Wahhabist Saudis & al-Qaida?


30 posted on 04/23/2008 1:33:54 AM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not 'free'.)
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To: Dog Gone

Espionage of national security secrets is still a crime against the state but it is neither treason (aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war) nor sedition (efforts to overthrow our form of government).


31 posted on 04/23/2008 11:50:47 AM PDT by weegee (Vote Obama 2008 for a bitter America.)
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To: justiceseeker93

Considering that Axis Sally was convicted of treason after WWII and out in 7 years, it is something to consider.


32 posted on 04/23/2008 11:51:55 AM PDT by weegee (Vote Obama 2008 for a bitter America.)
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To: freedomrings69

I’d scale back that comment if I were you. The Rosenbergs were executed for their espionage.


33 posted on 04/23/2008 11:53:06 AM PDT by weegee (Vote Obama 2008 for a bitter America.)
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To: Dog Gone

I agree that the spies within the CIA and FBI should’ve been executed for their betrayal.


34 posted on 04/23/2008 11:54:12 AM PDT by weegee (Vote Obama 2008 for a bitter America.)
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To: freedomrings69

BTW, Pollard was sentenced by a BLACK, Carter-appointed judge. I would respectfully suggest that antisemitism might well have played a role in the harshness of his sentence. (The sentencing judge has since passed on.)


35 posted on 04/23/2008 12:02:51 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: Dog Gone

The standard has been 2 to 5 years. Pollard is way over and nobody else has been close.


36 posted on 04/23/2008 3:48:13 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: weegee

I’d scale back that comment if I were you. The Rosenbergs were executed for their espionage.<<

That is a great non incoherent statement that is unconnected, says nothing and means nothing. What do the Rosenbergs have to do with Pollard, he was probably not born by the time they were hanged. Why even bring them up here.

They worked for an enemy nation. They endangered the lives and security of all Americans. Pollard did none of those things.


37 posted on 04/23/2008 3:52:09 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: justiceseeker93

I know Dershowitz claims that the judge had anti Israel bias. Then again Desshowitz is not above lying for his clients and Pollard is not an exception. I once saw a debate with Joe DeGenova, who prosecuted Pollard. DeGenova kept asking him about a memo that was used at the trial. Dershowitz kept saying he is not allowed to say if he saw it. Obviously he did see it and could not refute it.


38 posted on 04/23/2008 3:54:42 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: freedomrings69

It should be way over that, and I hope Pollard dies in jail.

There is not a much more despicable crime than stealing the secrets of our nation and giving them to a foreign country. It jeopardizes our position as a superpower and endangers countless citizens.

Why on earth would we give a longer sentence to someone who holds dog fights than to someone who sells our national secrets to foreigners?


39 posted on 04/23/2008 4:01:48 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone

I think there is an understanding that friends spy on friends. The USA had a spy in Israel who was captured at the same time. There are people who spy for Taiwan, South Korea, etc. I think they should be punished in all cases but I don’t think it should be more than most murderers get. If Pollard walks out tomorrow, nobody will think he got off easily and be encouraged to do what he did.


40 posted on 04/23/2008 4:21:44 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: Dog Gone

Let’s see you last a day in a tough prison (Pollard has been in the worst) let alone 5 years before you talk tough.


41 posted on 04/23/2008 4:23:17 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: freedomrings69

I just have a hunch you’re Jewish and wouldn’t mind Israel having all our secrets.

Maybe I’m wrong about that, but the US should be in complete charge of what technology we share with allies. Because once it’s gone, it’s gone, and we can’t control our enemies stealing it from our allies.

What would you sentence someone to if they gave detailed plans to Iran on how to build a nuclear bomb? A couple years?


42 posted on 04/23/2008 4:27:42 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone

I feel the same for someone stealing secrets for Israel that I would if they stole secrets for Great Britain, South Korea, Taiwan etc. Maybe your problem is that you cannot realize Israel is an ally. Comparing stealing secrets for Iran and Israel shows that you lack understanding on this issue.


43 posted on 04/23/2008 6:13:49 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: freedomrings69

You are so full of crap. Really.

You think it’s okay to steal for friends who prove they are not friends by stealing from us.

It’s not.

You are no patriot. You are a danger to our republic.


44 posted on 04/23/2008 6:19:51 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: freedomrings69

If Dershowitz officially represented Pollard at trial, that’s news to me. I believe Pollard’s attorney at trial was named Hibey.

Later, on appeal, Ted Olsen (husband of the late conservative attorney and writer Barbara Olsen), who later became Solicitor General under W, represented Pollard. It turned out that Pollard’s conviction would have been overturned and he would have had a new trial had not Ruth Bader Ginsberg ruled against him on a procedural matter on a DC Circuit 3-judge panel back in the late 80s or early 90s.

Dershowitz’s role in the case was limited to commentator and pundit, to the best of my knowledge.

Please correct me if I’m mistaken.


45 posted on 04/23/2008 8:03:15 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: Dog Gone

Let’s try this one more time and maybe you can understand. Allies spy on each other. South Korea spies on us, Taiwan spies on us and Israel spied on us. Frankly I can understand why those nations do since to varying degrees their survival is in the balance and it is vital for them to know what we are doing that may affect their survival.

Now do I condone Americans who help them for reasons of money or ideology? The answer is no, I say they should be prosecuted as Pollard was. Do I think what they did is less serious than spying for an enemy? Yes, it is obvious and if you cannot grasp that concept, I probably cannot help you. Just as we don’t have a death penalty for assaulting someone, while we do consider it a serious crime it is not in the same class as murder. We have intermediate punishments for less serious crimes.

You may not like that fact but it is a fact. And we have accepted it as a society in the practice of sentencing those who have spied for allies much less seriously than those who spied for enemies. Pollard is a lone exception as has been demonstrated. Do you feel all the others should have been sentenced much more harshly? Perhaps you do. Curiously you only mention Pollard but never complain about all those others who served two years or less for spying for allies.


46 posted on 04/23/2008 9:56:22 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: justiceseeker93

Dershowitz did get involved in his appeal. I don’t know exactly what his role was and whether he worked for Pollard at the same time as Olsen or prior to Ted Olsen getting involved. If memory serves me, Olsen was hired by the Israeli government to represent Pollard.


47 posted on 04/23/2008 9:58:01 PM PDT by freedomrings69
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To: freedomrings69

FYI, the Rosenbergs were electrocuted, not hanged, about a year before Pollard was born.

The US and Israel as allies share all kinds of secrets. However, it’s up to the governments to decide what they will and will not share. It’s not up to Pollard or Kadish.

I can’t understand why anyone convicted of espionage shouldn’t spend the rest of his/her life in prison.


48 posted on 04/23/2008 10:22:57 PM PDT by EDINVA (Proud American for 23,062 days.... and counting!)
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To: freedomrings69
Pollard is a lone exception as has been demonstrated.

We're not exactly at war with Russia. Have you checked the sentence given to Robert Hannsen?

49 posted on 04/24/2008 9:55:48 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: justiceseeker93
Why shouldn't Pollard be let go by now? I suggest he not be pardoned, but that his sentence be commuted to time served (which is now more than twenty years, much longer than sentences in other cases involving espionage on behalf of allies.)

You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of the penalties handed out to Americans who steal classified information and give it to someone else. It has nothing to do with who receives the information and more to do with the importance of the information itself. Pollard received a life sentence because of what information was compromised. According to a classified memorandum written for the trial judge by then-Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, Pollard’s actions amounted to treason. “It is difficult for me…to conceive of a greater harm to national security,” Weinberger wrote.

We have had others who have spied on behalf of Israel, e.g., Larry Franklin, who were not sentenced to life. And there have been other spies like Aldrich Ames and John Walker who received life sentences. To suggest that Pollard was unfairly singled out in terms of punishment is nonsense. Why do you believe that to be the case?

50 posted on 04/24/2008 10:07:05 AM PDT by kabar
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