Skip to comments.An Unusual Prosecution of a Way of Life (FLDS Polygamy)
Posted on 04/27/2008 4:39:12 AM PDT by Zakeet
Texas Will Attempt to Show That Polygamist Culture Itself Harms Children
ELDORADO, Tex. -- The ironic thing is that before the big sheriff's department armored personnel carrier appeared outside the Yearning for Zion Ranch, it was starting to seem as though America had finally figured out how to live with its polygamists.
For more than a century, authorities had alternately persecuted and ignored the groups practicing plural marriage around the West -- splinters from mainstream Mormonism, splinters of splinters. Mostly, they ignored them.
But, in the past few years, officials in some states have begun trying to bring these groups out of the shadows. They offered a deal: Marry however often you want, but don't marry children. A Supreme Court case on gay sex also provided unlikely help.
Then came Eldorado.
On April 3, Texas authorities raided the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' compound here, then removed more than 450 children. Now, Texas seems headed for exactly the kind of wrenching, head-on fight that other states have tried to avoid.
Their case will ask: Does this polygamous group deserve a place -- and the right to raise children -- in modern society?
Now comes a legal fight with a twist. The state will argue that the sect's children are at risk at the compound, but not because every one of them has been physically or sexually abused.
Instead, they will say that the culture of the church, which encouraged girls to marry and bear children in their early teens, was a danger to any child immersed in it.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
Members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints show strain after spending 11 days in a
shelter. Here, they are at the Yearning for Zion Ranch near
Eldorado, Tex., which law enforcement raided April 3.
Maybe the state govs are afraid the following may happen: (Beaver Island is in Lake Michigan, equidistant from Charlevoix, Northport and Manistique) Please note, the article says nothing about polygamy, and a lot about social control.
James Strang, who would create America’s only kingdom on Beaver Island, was born in New York in 1813. He expected great things of himself. He established a law practice at the age of 23, but it failed to satisfy his ambition.
When he met Joseph Smith in 1844, he converted to his new evangelical religion as a way of improving his position.
Strang’s debating skills impressed the Mormon leader, who assigned him to found a branch in Burlington, Wisconsin. While Strang was away, Smith was killed. Shortly thereafter Strang produced a letter naming him as Smith’s chosen heir. He was challenged by Brigham Young, who was more solidly entrenched. Strang led those who accepted him to Nauvoo, Illinois, and then Voree, Wisconsin, before deciding that God wanted him to bring his flock to Beaver Island.
Producing mysterious brass plates from the ground, and receiving directives from God, Strang formed a colony on Beaver Island in 1848. It grew year by year, and soon had the numbers to elect Strang to the state legislature. Trouble with the “gentiles” led to the “War of Whiskey Point”, which the Mormons won by firing a canon at the unruly gang gathered at the trading post.
By the early 1850s, most of the non-Mormons had left the Island. The ensuing degree of absolute power went to Strang’s head, and rumors spread about Mormon attrocities. Strang had himself crowned king, and began taking additional wives. Attempts to oust him by legal means failed, and in 1856 he was assassinated by two disgruntled follow ers. His people were driven off the Island by an unruly mob from Mackinac Island, which was instigated by speculators eager to grab the land. During their 8-year occupancy, the Mormons cleared and cultivated the ground, built roads and houses, and changed the Island from a wilderness to a moderate outpost of civilization. But fate conspired to keep them from reaping the benefits of their toil.
Beaver Island was blessed to be near some of the best fishing grounds in the world. The Mormons had excluded the gentiles from partaking in this bounty, but once the Mormons were gone, Irish fishermen began to appear. They came from Gull Island, Mackinac Island, various port cities on the mainland, and County Donegal in Ireland. Once they settled in, they wrote to their families and friends about “America’s Emerald Isle.”
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
(Acknowledging that the jury has yet to hear the evidence in this case)I wouldn’t speak out for child molesters. Would you?
Not even remotely close to what is happening in Eldorado. Texas is right in this case. Texas did NOT create the mess. Warren Jeffs and FLDS did.
Child molestation aside, how much worse is polygamy than a philandering husband (or wife)? Or a married person using prostitutes? ...not supporting polygamy, just saying there is some hypocrisy in many politicians, government officials and the media.
There is always hypocrisy in politicians. And worse.
When they came for the child-rapers, the old men who impregnate young girls and keep them as sex-slaves...
This is not about religion.
This is not even about polygamy.
This is about sexual slavery and raping children. To paint the shutdown of this sexual prison as religious persecution is bullsh!t.
The problem isn't polygamy, it's pedophilia.
Fifty year old men grooming prepubescent girls to become their wives as soon as those children can bear children is a crime.
Child molestation is not "aside". Child-rape (it is not "molestation" it is rape) and enforced sexual slavery are the central point of this action.
The FLDS would have been tolerated ad-infinitum if all they did was practice polygamy AMONG CONSENTING ADULTS and keep it to themselves.
How posed. gag.
There, fixed it. "Wives" is a euphemism. The whole point of "marrying" them was to put a pretty name on child-rape, which was done for the purpose of provideing sexual gratification for the men, and bearing children to increase their numbers of the group.
Let's not mince words.
BTW, is anybody going to mention here the fact that the in-breeding within FLDS has produced deformed, unhealthy, offspring and continues to do so? There's already an FR thread or two on this topic...
Bullseye! I could care less about the polygamy angle as long as it's between consenting adults and they are raising and educating their children in a reasonably healthy environment. Girls under the age of seventeen having children with men more than three years their senior is the threshold of statutory rape in Texas. A reasonable compromise in my opinion. Find the men who broke this law and prosecute them. Return the children to their mothers and make it clear that we are watching. At this point, I think that this would be the best way to go.
“The whole point of “marrying” them was to put a pretty name on child-rape”
I’m not defending their practices. If they have the evidence to prosecute them, go for it. But, frequently there is a fine line between prosecution and persecution. I’m making a point that all of the grandstanding over polygamy is hypocritical, not to mention, a ruse to stir up dislike of Mormons in general. All of the Mormons that I know have the strongest family values and sense of community of any religious group I have seen.
Agreed. While Mormonism is hardly my cup of tea, I would defend their right to practice their faith as they see fit as long as they do not violate any laws in the process. The vast majority of Mormons do not subscribe to the polygamist model that is in question here. Even having said that. If a man wants to shack up with three or four adult women in a consensual relationship and call no more than one of them his legal spouse, that's their business. As long as they don't want to teach my kids in school that it's just one more acceptable "lifestyle choice". When your talking about girls under the age of seventeen, then the law comes into play and should be vigorously enforced.
Ha! Just read your tag line. I love it!
Now that I think about it, this brings up another good point. What kind of birth records were these people keeping to insure that no incest laws were being broken?
“This is about sexual slavery and raping children.7”
Yes, it is.
Tired of the comparision to inner city mothers whose boyfriends prey on their children and how is it worse yada, yada?
It’s worse because inner city mothers whose boyfriends prey on their children are just that, disgusting pigs committing crimes of opportunity.
But in the YFZ situation, it is a structured, organized process whose purpose is to provide little girls and women to rape, abuse, humiliate and dominate, because deviant old men can’t get it up any other way so they make damn sure the “opportunity” is always present because it’s societally sanctioned and cloaked by religion.
This straightforward assessment needs repeating over & over again on these threads. (Please post this & other discerning comments frequently...we need more folks like you & not just Morfolks who tend to defend polygamy)
That is the point. There arent any, and what few there are have been suggested to have been altered or not recorded correctly in the first place. That is why they are DNA testing everyone.
Until the DNA results get tallied, no one knows for sure what is going on.
This is not the only compound of its like....there is another one in British Columbia that I was just reading about. They said that the four hundred or so that are at that one can be traced back like 30 or so years to the original 7 founders of that colony. Canada is having to deal with it the same way as Texas is dealing with this one. And-—there are more. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
I dont care much about 17 year olds squirting out kids. That is common practice on the streets of the inner city. What does catch my attention is 13 year olds WHO HAVE ALREADY GIVEN BIRTH. There was also news at the beginning of this of a 16 year old who had already given birth 4 times.
We, the reading public does not even know yet, what is really going on there. After the DNA screening is done and the maps are drawn, then this cult will begin to reveal itself. Nobody cares if some guy shags more than one woman. That isnt the point. But some old lecher who is shagging 12 year old girls should be the concern of the community.
What if that were your 12 year old daughter or granddaugher? That changes the picture doesnt it?
I totally agree. However, should the now sixteen year old mother loose custody of her children for no other reason than she was a victim of this horrific abuse? This is indeed going to be a can of worms.
Concho, just what in any of my posts suggests to you that I think an adult having sex with a twelve year old girl is anything but rape? Please reread my posts.
The media, news agencies, etc. are using the term "polygamy" because that's not in dispute, whereas "child-rape" will require some forensic DNA testing to prove, even though it's perfectly obvious it occurred.
Don't mince words. "Polygamy" is not the issue and everyone knows that. They just can't say "child rape" until it's proven forensically.
I stand strongly and firmly on the First Amendment, and defend the rights of any person to believe whatever they want to, and practice their religion as long as it doesn't involve illegal behavior. Thus I have no quarrel whatsoever with Mormons or anyone else on the basis of their beliefs.
It's only when the ACTIONS of a group, based on their beliefs, run afoul of the law, that I become exercised about it.
Since I doubt you're going to argue that child rape should be legal, and therefore be protected by the First Amendment's religion clause, I think we can agree that the actions taken against the FLDS sexual slavery prison are justified.
Absolutely it is a mess. The 16 year old loose custody? Yes, that is a hard one, but who is going to support her and her 4 children? She is but a child herself. Uneducated, unworldly, and unable to function in society. There are several things that are not being reported by the Main Stream Media.
Nobody is interviewing the “fathers”. They mostly scattered like rats. Why are the men of this bunch not being identified and held accountable? When asked, the women evaded all the questions about who their “husbands” were. Nobody is reporting on how the male children are cast out onto the road when they reach 17, and are never permitted back in.
It is not a healthy situation, any way that you look at it. I hate the interference of anything Government as much as the other guy, but, the slimy part of all this, is-—someone has to stand up for those kids, and who is it going to be?
Bet hey, I thought that the official ideology gods had decreed that we are no longer supposed to 'believe' in genetics? Genetics is a gateway belief that could lead to Darwinism.
I was not poking that at you in particular, it was just a general thought.
The difference is free will of all parties involved versus cult isolation, brainwashing and slavery.
Really? (That's suppose to be breaking news that politicians, govt officials & the media are hypocritical? What? You're telling us that our "idols" are fallen creatures? Oh, no, I'm heartsick & crestfallen & can bear no more "bad news" today. Please refrain.) /sarc off
Or a married person using prostitutes?..
Pssst. ("y - e - a - h y - o - u" [I whisper] I didn't want to embarrass you in front of everybody, but just wanted to make sure you understand that prostitution is illegal & if caught in the act, johns are arrested & even in some localities, their names & pictures are posted in newspapers or online for extra embarrassment sake)
...how much worse is polygamy than a philandering husband ...
Since I would venture that a small % of polygamists haven't jump-started their "homy" harem until their wives were of legal age, then in these polygamy IS "a philandering husband"--only in this case, it's putting a religious veneer on it to sanction it and export it for others to buy into it. (So I think it's always worse when folks try to dress up & "pretty-fy" something that it's not for sake of justification)
I think non-Mormonfolk should actually take the time to go and read the mainstream & fundamentalist Mormons' justification for polygamy. And what they need to do is to look very closely for the word "Emma" to pop up. (I mean here we have old testament figures like David, Joseph, Isaac, Abraham, Solomon, Moses mentioned [Even though Joseph & Isaac weren't polygamists & Moses likely married serially & not simulteously & Solomon's 1,000 partner escapades is hardly worth emulating, etc.], and all of a sudden we see "Emma.")
Who's Emma? Well, "Emma Smith" pops up three times in verses 51-54: Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God." (D&C 132:51-52)
(I find it interesting after this last phrase was inserted into the Lord's mouth, that Joseph Smith was dead less than a year later)
And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law." (D&C 132:54)
It's pretty obvious that Joseph & Emma had already been going at it verbally before this came down the pike, and that Emma had already threatened a "tit for tat" arrangement. What? You can have many wives? (Then I can take many husbands!)
In fact, verse 55 which mentions "she" (Emma), verse 56, which mentions "mine handmaid", and then v. 63 which says that if a plural woman sleeps with another man she has committed adultery, are all aimed at Emma as well.
D&C 132, pure & simple, was an apologetic written for one person, Emma Smith, masquerading as a religious revelation for all for all time: For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory...Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain this glory. (D&C 132:4,21)
If you want to know why the fundamentalist Mormons will never willingly give up household polygamy, it's right here. If you want to know why their cousins, the mainstream Mormons will never give up temple ritual polygamy and celestial polygamy and temple ritual proxy polyandry, it's also right here.
Sweep of polygamists’ kids raises legal questions
It is interesting how the FLDS men have scattered like trash in the breeze.
Wow, big strong tough guys....
> But hey, I thought that the official ideology gods had decreed that we are no longer supposed to 'believe' in genetics? Genetics is a gateway belief that could lead to Darwinism.
[cough] Uh, huh.
Let those who defend this heinous crew of child-rapists provide an answer to two questions:
I honestly believe that once all this mess is sorted out, the 16 year old will not lose custody...she may end of living in foster care with her kids, but she’ll not have parental rights severed (Unless she wishes).
And more than once, I’ve seen teen girls, pregnant via abuse, molestation etc give up their kids so the children can have a better chance and they themselves can put an ugly past behind them.
Good points all. Once this mess is sorted out, the men involved need to be held to the letter of the law. I hope that the authorities are keeping track of these characters. I also find the ousting of the male children at seventeen very revealing.
I wouldnt defend Constitution ignoring 'law enforcement' officers. Would you?
First of all, I guess we need to ask why you equate our government folks, some surprisingly who are members of a Catholic or Protestant church, with "Nazis?"
The key to quoting Martin Niemoller, a good Lutheran pastor who opposed Nazi-ism, is knowing when to apply this. Otherwise, what you get is:
When the Law enforcement folks came for the Planned Parenthood counselors who were telling clients how to get around rape & incest laws,
I remained silent;
I was not trying to protect a racist or incest perp.
When they locked up the educators who slept with local students;
I remained silent;
For I was not an abusive educator
When they came for the polygamists marrying underage girls in mock marriage ceremonies;
I remained silent;
I wasnt a polygamist.
When they came for the abusive Roman Catholic priests
I did not speak out;
For I was not such a priest
When they came for me,
there was no more pedophiles left to speak out.
Many boys are ousted before 17, depending on sexual maturity rate. So yeah, that practice alone is so purely evil that it truly brands them- the leaders- for what they are.
It’s nothing put a pure selfish perverted fantasy brought to fruition on a massive scale
> I also find the ousting of the male children at seventeen very revealing.
That is, the ousting at 17 of the male children who were not already a) ousted or killed at a younger age, or b) aborted or "stillborn" because they were male.
I don't have figures for these additional alleged atrocities -- at the moment I can only repeating what's essentially hearsay because the facts haven't come out. I'm hoping they aren't as bad as I've heard and read, but at the moment, nothing would surprise me, given what's already clearly the case.
The FLDS was breeding a Master Race, and indulging in perverse sexual fantasies. All the rest was to support those activities. Read about it -- it's not hard to find references, and Google (or your search of choice) is your friend.
Excellent! Thank you for that clarification.
While I agree with you to an extent, who decides at which point the government should step in. Clearly, if statutory rape is taking place, that's cause for action. The lines get more fuzzy when only consenting adults are involved.
Another Mormon or Romneyfile n00b? If another freeper hasn’t told you yet, invoking the Nazis has negative impact on your argument.
I did the math, based on the reports of numbers of fathers, ‘wives’, children etc and my estimates are that there are about 300 males missing that should be on the compound. IOW, the numbers of females is close to 500 ish and the number of males, including younger children, a few teen boys and ‘fathers’ (GAG!) is only around 150. With birth rates being 50/50-— 300 or so males are unaccounted for.
I'm leaning towards your position on this one Najida. But lets be very careful here. We're treading on very thin ice as well.
The issue is that (according to other posters) that slaves in the south could have been called consenting adults also.
IOW, at what point is manipulating and controlling all aspects of another person’s life, thoughts and beliefs cross into removing their ability to be a free, consenting adult.
Free will, true freedom is the total antithesis of the FLDS and it’s key to destruction.
IOW, I don’t believe that their has been a free consenting female on an FLDS site in decades. The men know that if they allowed free choice in their females, they’d be standing alone like 14 year old a a college kegger.
Simply chilling. An account will have to be made.
I ain’t God, a judge, a lawyer, Queen of the Universe, an IRS employee or anyone with power. So it’s simple belief and opinion.
I am a human that pretty much knows evil when I see it and will say so.....granted, as I get older, folks can just blame it on the senility. ;)