Posted on 05/06/2008 5:16:55 AM PDT by MrEdd
Census sheets found in a safe at a polygamous sect's ranch in west Texas both support and contradict the state's claim of a widespread culture of underage marriage.
Texas authorities used the sheets to convince a judge that there was a "pervasive pattern" among the FLDS of marrying underage girls to older men.
A review of the "Father's Family Information" sheets shows a handful of 16-year-old wives, 13 young monogamous couples and 24 men with multiple wives - including one man with 21 wives and 36 children.
A Texas Ranger testified about the census sheets during an April 17-18 court hearing before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who accepted the records as evidence despite objections from attorneys representing FLDS parents and children. The pages were recently released by the court. Sgt. Danny Crawford said the sheets were found April 5 in an office at the ranch, home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Texas authorities raided the ranch on April 3 after receiving reports of an abused 16-year-old, calls now being investigated as a possible hoax.
Authorities have said, however, they found evidence of a polygamous lifestyle and underage marriage practices at the ranch that supported removing 464 children.
The bishop's record sheets helped them make that case.
(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...
Although this case is completely different, I harken back to the Duke case as a great example of the hysteria government agencies and their enablers in the leftist media willing to lynch people without their day in court, willing to deny civil rights, and a right to a fair hearing. If there weren't those like KC Johnson willing to fight for rights, maybe some of those guys would still be getting prosecuted. I see the one similarity in that many have indicted, convicted, and determined fate before all the facts; facts from government and defendant's defense alike.
“Legally arranged marriages happen everyday all day in America, “
Yes. But were these ‘spiritual-marriages’ legal?
“I believe these FLDS situations could be interpreted as common law marriages.”
IMHO (and laws do vary state to state) A common law marriage requires that the couple LIVE TOGETHER for a certain amount of years before it is considered EQUAL to a LAWFUL MARRIAGE.
These members at the YFZ Ranch have only been there 4 years, and some of their wive/mother/children haven’t even been there that long. Some appear to be like AU PAIR girls.
Also, I don’t think the common law marriage concept covers multiple females to one male.
I could be wrong, though.
“I am only pointing out that arranged marriages are commonplace and legal as far as I know. “
From what we know about the FLDS sect that went to the YFZ Ranch, JEFFS arranges all ‘spiritual-marriages’.
The ‘parents’ ,whether they be biological, recently assigned, or whatever, have no say in the matter at all.
And the Jack booted thugs took the dead bodies of children, piled them up, lit them on fire, and cooked hot dogs and marshmellows while they laughed the night away.
Thankfully, no dogs were shot.
Here is the Texas law to which you refer. I too believe there are sections that could apply to the FLDS.
TITLE 6. OFFENSES AGAINST THE FAMILY
CHAPTER 25. OFFENSES AGAINST THE FAMILY
§ 25.01. BIGAMY. (a) An individual commits an offense if: (1) he is legally married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry a person other than his spouse in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under circumstances that would, but for the actor's prior marriage, constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with a person other than his spouse in this state under the appearance of being married; or
(2) he knows that a married person other than his spouse is married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry that person in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under circumstances that would, but for the person's prior marriage, constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with that person in this state under the appearance of being married.
(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of being married" means holding out that the parties are married with cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)
(1) that the actor reasonably believed that his marriage was void or had been dissolved by death, divorce, or annulment.
(d) For the purposes of this section, the lawful wife or husband of the actor may testify both for or against the actor concerning proof of the original marriage.
(e) An offense under this section is a Third Degree Felony.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974 .
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994. Amended September 2005.
I have repeatedly read that these people can't be arrested for polygamy because it's.....illegal. Why bother making something a crime if noone can actually commit that crime? The bigamy statutes seem to say that yes, you CAN be prosecuted for polygamy. (Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!)
I would also say that arranged marriages would only be legal here if the persons involved agree to the arrangement. If by some method, the parties are coerced by threats or forced to marry one another, it would not be legal, regardless of the age of those involved.
“I just find too much love for the government here at times.”
No. What you find is that without information to show the ‘government’ has done anything wrong SO FAR, as AMERICAN CITIZENS we stand behind it. We don’t just ATTACK it for no reason.
Now, WACO, TWA800, Oklahoma City,etc. there wasn’t much ‘love’ for the government being shown on these threads, was there?
“They should be questioned, they should be challenged at every turn.”
Well, that’s what lawyers are for.
But, I think that you should not have placed a period at the end of the sentence, you should have added your next sentence, right after a ‘comma’.
” If anyone’s rights are infringed upon,””
” Everyone has the same rights in this country,”
They SHOULD have. When they DON’T, the ‘government’ steps in.
The women, children, and MEN, of the FLDS, the bulk of the group, the mainstay, the source of the labor, the devoted, DO NOT HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS as you, or I, or WARREN JEFFS and his LOYAL INNER CIRCLE.
If the government should be MONITORED to ensure they are not violating the rights of citizens, then shouldn’t one also want the government to ENSURE that those same citizen’s rights aren’t being violated by anyone else?
“What makes modern documents and buildings more “Sacred” than toilet paper and chickenhouses? “
I don’t know about the rest, but, modern society would crumble without toilet paper.
nor does the article mention this is the child custody case not the criminal case.
Nor does the article mention the function of the admission into evidence. It seems the admission was to line up parentage rather than criminality.
Also why is the state releasing evidence to be used in a PENDING criminal investigation? That only buys a change of venue motion.
Different cultures abound in this country, and if you look around you will see many that don’t accept the conventional American values but appreciate the freedoms and opportunity. And of course arranged marriages are agreed upon, because that is what is and how it is. Many are excited when the day comes , when a brother and father have determined someone is suitable.
Certainly, it is not as commonplace as twinkees at the local 7-11, but they exist and it works.
It is a nice day. I'll try not to spoil it with a pointless argument.
Most important of all my own children are safe .
I couldn't agree more with that.
The most basic of our due process rights are notice and the right to be heard .
I agree completely.
In this case, I agree that the family and other people those children reside with need to be notified and given an opportunity to respond before the custody hearing begins. What some people seem to not understand, or are ignoring, it that the custody hearing hasn't started yet.
The children were taken into TEMPORARY custody based on credible evidence that they were at risk.
There was a hearing to determine if there was really cause for them to be placed in temporary custody pending a hearing to determine if the child is at risk and should be permanently removed from the home.
Such preliminary hearings are especially necessary in this case because the government isn't even sure who the parents of these children are, and they needed for the court to order DNA tests even to make sure they were notifying the actual parents, and to make sure that the people claiming to be their parents really are their parents.
That's something that there isn't usually much dispute over, but this case is unique in that regard.
Since the DNA tests are going to take time for this many children, the court had little choice but to have the children temporarily placed in foster care.
The evidence they have gathered is enough to meet the lower standard needed for keeping these children in foster care until the proper evidence is gathered, the proper people are notified and have an opportunity to respond, and the cases move forward to the custody hearings.
Part of due process is that a judge must rule on things like performing DNA tests on the children, and if there is even enough evidence to keep the children in temporary custody. The lawyers for the FLDS members are filing their motions with the court. The CPS is collecting evidence. The court is doing what it can to both ensure due process, while resolving the matter as quickly as reasonably possible.
It is understandable to worry about due process in such a complex case, with so many people involved, but I haven't seen any evidence that they are being denied due process.
I think I managed to even say that without calling anyone names.
Well, if Algore has his way, there should be plenty of leftover corncobs from ethanol production... ‘-)
I respect and appreciate your reasonable approach .
So many laws have been created, (a godzillion or so), I suppose the state can create some sort of a legal standing regarding any and everything it wishes to destroy. Especially when the state seeks to terrorize women and children on a whim.
While some can justify this action, I cannot. To me it is an act of terrorism upon the mothers and their children. In my mind, nothing regarding any of the allegations can justify what has been done to these mothers and their children.
If America's CPS can accept as perfectly okay for little danny and little susie to have two moms or two dads, then surely it can make room to tolerate a father having multiple wives with multiple chidren. (Course as to the latter, it already does in the welfare state. It's simply that the dads never marry their multiple girlfriends while the moms collect the welfare checks...most fathers unknown much less their ages.)
The hypocrisy by state is self evident. And since I have been indoctrinated to tolerate as perfectly fine for little danny and little susie to have two moms or two dads, I'm not about to jump on the hypocrite bus like so many here.
I guess if we are reduced to having to use CORNCOBS, then each time we have to wipe ourselves with something resembling a large round bastard file, we should give THANKS to the almighty Algore.
One should remember to not just rasp the outside, but shove it completely in, to get the full effects of what Algore is trying to do.
: )
“In my mind, nothing regarding any of the allegations can justify what has been done to these mothers and their children.”
By the CPS, or Warren Jeffs?
How do you prove the kid in your house is yours, if the CPS wants to make a deal out of it?
Do you have to turn your kids over to CPS for a few weeks while they run a DNA test?
Should we all get pre-emptive DNA tests, through a 3rd-party independent source that the CPS trusts, so that if our neighbors don’t like where we park our car and decide to get us by reporting us as child abusers, we don’t have to lose our kids because we can’t prove they are ours?
And why is it that we think that stamped documents from Utah are forged or suspect, but papers taken from some safe under FLDS control are trustworthy?
“If America’s CPS can accept as perfectly okay for little danny and little susie to have two moms or two dads, “
Not that I agree with the two moms,two dads concept, but CPS doesn’t tolerate it if the moms / dads are having sex with their children. Or having them work in factories for no wage while underage. Or (and ESPECIALLY) having them taken from those moms/dads and being traded off for more cooperative children.
Ellen De Generis (wasn’t it) swapped her DOG off to somebody else, and the VENDOR came and took the dog away.
Don’t these children deserve better than some dog?
“Do you have to turn your kids over to CPS for a few weeks while they run a DNA test?”
If your kids(girls) are underage, pregnant, and you claim you are ‘spiritually-married’ to them, then yes.
If your neighbors saw you throw your 12 year old son out on the streets, penniless, with nothing but the clothes on his back, and you refuse to acknowledge his existence, then yes.
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