Group Discusses Decriminalizing Polygamy (YFZ/FLDS Daily Thread - 5/10/08)

KUTV.com ^ | 5/09 9:41 pm | N/A

[MizSterious]

Group Discusses Decriminalizing Polygamy

Last Update: 5/09 9:41 pm

It's outlawed under the Utah constitution and that's unlikely to change. But decriminalizing it could mean lesser penalties for bigamy convictions.

“I think something needs to happen. Something needs to be changed. It needs to be decriminalized,” said Dorothy Allred Solomon.

Solomon is the daughter of Rulon Allred she says she grew up in polygamy and said she had a happy childhood. Allred was murdered in 1977 in a hit ordered by rival polygamist Ervil Lebaron.

“What happens when a way of life is outlawed is that it attracts outlaws. And it attracted the worse sort of outlaws in the Lebaron case,” she said.

In the wake of the FLDS raid in Texas, there may be a chorus of people close to polygamy here in Utah sounding the same call.

“The polygamy statute needs to be revised. Thoroughly revised,” said Don Timpson who lives in a polygamous community. “The state has to realize that polygamy is not going away.”

Attorney general Mark Shurtleff is said to be open to discussion of turning polygamy from a felony crime into a misdemeanor. This could mean that a man convicted of polygamy may spend a year or less in jail instead of several years in prison.

Those opposed to the change fear it will harm innocent victims.

[MizSterious]

5/9 thread, with articles on:

Contents of the church records, Utah, Arizona prosecutors vow not to raid polygamists in their states, polygamy town hall, interviews with some still living on the ranch, UT seeking facts on TX raid, AGs defend TX raid, polygamists meet the world, sentiments in Eldorado TX, Canada the next polygamy capital, mothers who refuse to id selves & children can't challenge children's removal, YFZ children at risk, Jeffs seeks dismissal of incest charges.

5/8 thread, with articles on:

TX making plans for fLDS children, work on the case taking toll on social workers, town hall on polygamy, update on Lost Boys, report from former plural wife, "army" of attorneys in case, San Angelo mayor's report, federal prosecutor assigned to look into polygamy crimes, interview with publisher of Eldorado Success, letter from fLDS mother, next hearings set for 5/19, "Sects are About Sex" column, burden of case on area's courts, lawyer representing fLDS children speaks, church records speak volumes, state must immunize children.

5/7 thread, with articles on:

TX AG handling the case, laws that come into play, former fLDS member speaks out, legal experts talk about case, 80 year old has 21 wives, incest next issue with Jeffs case, seized records show polygamous unions, the Lost Boys, DA preparing criminal cases against fLDS, AGs meet to discuss how to help polygamists (link only), UT AG's political contributers, ACLU weighs in (of course), state increases security at kids housing.

5/6 thread, with articles on:

TX AG to prosecute any fLDS cases, Canadians urge crackdown on border (to prevent celestial bride traffic to US), more on DOD probe of fLDS, Lost Boys interview

5/5 thread, with articles on:

Canadian parents want Ottawa's help in getting daughter back from TX, attorneys complain about confusion with hearings, polygamous dad speaks out, mothers leave children while courts sort out case, Carolyn Jessop's "Escape" no. 5 on NYT bestseller list, deport's excellent list of links, Warren Jeffs under suicide watch, man has 21 wives, 35 children, town hall set for media, law discussions on polygamy .

5/4 thread, with articles on:

Recollections of life in the cult, polygamy summit in St. George, Utah AG reluctant to judge Tx action, UT, AZ polygamists retreated to TX, children adapt to new homes, states divided on approach to polygamy

5/3 thread, with articles on:

Colorado woman's (Laura Chapman) story of abuse in fLDS, letter from fLDS mothers to Utah governor, more on fashion, according to UT, "few answers in Texas", how families are torn apart by fLDS, Utah gives TX hints on handling of fLDS kids, reprint of TX law professor's assertion that raid was correct and legal, discussion on blood atonement with links, Polygamy's undergrond railroad, "Mormon Manson," comparisons between YFZ and Cold Creek, fairly complete listing of child child custody legal procedure, common pediatric fractures, look at how fLDS acquired land for compount using fraud in 2004

5/2 thread, with articles on:

Utah officials don't want federal help, feds claim they're stymied in probes of fLDS, residents of UT and AZ want crackdowns, home schooling for sect children, burden of proof high in such cases, kids' religious needs, older boys, not adults may be source of abuse of boys, Bishop's Record (pdf) list of YFZ families, Dr. Phil opines, warrant canceled for AZ man originally charged with molesting "Sarah," protesters supporting fLDS mothers show up at NBA game, letter from fLDS mothers claims rights violated, law professor says state correct to remove children from ranch, excerpt from "On the Lam with Warren Jeffs."

---

Entire contents of the Daily Threads (4/24 - present) can be accessed here, along with many links to documents, picture galleries and other material related to this case.

____________________

As always, for the sake of orderliness (and to prevent the pulling of threads and/or messages), let's do try to stay on topic and polite. You can't have a flame war if you don't take the bait.

____________________

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____________________

I do not run a pinglist, but you can freepmail Politicalmom and request that you be added to her FLDS Eldorado Legal Case Ping List.

[MizSterious]

Daily thread ping!

[Bushwacker777]

Sounds like a great idea.

[MizSterious]

School, gardening priorities for sect children

By Stuart Duncan
Originally published 05:57 p.m., May 9, 2008
Updated 05:57 p.m., May 9, 2008

CORPUS CHRISTI — School and gardening are priorities for the children at a local shelter who were taken from a West Texas polygamist sect.

The children started home schooling one hour a day last week in reading, writing, math and other courses and will work their way up to learning for four hours per day, said Delma Trejo, director of the Ark Assessment Center and Emergency Shelter for Youth in Corpus Christi.

"It's going really well for them," Trejo said. "(The home schooling is) easier on the older ones than the younger ones. All of the older ones can read. The younger ones can read a little, and they know their alphabet but they're just too young."

Trejo indicated the children's education level is on par with that of other children their age.

Excerpt. Read the rest at source: Corpus Christi Caller-Times.

[MizSterious]

Polygamist ranch is considered one household, state says.

Agency says mothers' behavior forced the judge to conduct mass hearings.

Saturday, May 10, 2008

Child Protective Services officials this week defended their decision to remove hundreds of children from the Eldorado ranch run by a polygamous sect, saying that the group's communal living situation required the removal of all the children in the face of evidence of sexual abuse.

The agency also argued that individual hearings on placing each child in foster care were not necessary and that the mothers' "conspiracy of silence" left a West Texas judge no other choice but to hold a mass hearing.

The statements, in documents mailed Thursday to the Third Court of Appeals in Austin, were the most specific yet in explaining the state's rationale for its actions in the case. The filings came in response to a lawsuit filed by 48 mothers who have sued the state seeking the return of their children. Lawyers for the agency that oversees CPS asked the court to reject the request.

The 464 children removed from the ranch owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints were placed in foster care around Texas last month after a state investigation found a pattern of young girls being forced into "spiritual marriages" with older men.

"The investigation revealed that the children appeared to have a pervasive belief that when the prophet, Uncle Merrill, decided for them to be married, they would be married," CPS lawyers wrote. "No age was too young to be spiritually married, and the young girls wanted to have as many babies as they could."

Attorneys for the mothers responded in court documents filed Friday, saying CPS did not have sufficient evidence "to justify the mass separation of every single child" from his or her mother. "To distract attention from this inconvenient fact," the mothers' lawyers wrote, the agency focuses "on the mothers' purported beliefs, rather than on their actions or omissions."

Responding to the mothers' complaint that the department failed to show that many of the children, such as boys and very young girls, were in danger, agency attorneys wrote that the state "is not required to show that a majority of the children at the (ranch) were at risk due to sexual abuse, or that the evidence pertains to the parents of the majority of the children."

According to state law, when deciding whether a child is in danger, a court may consider whether the household includes a person who has sexually abused another child.

"Since the occupants of the ranch consider themselves as living in one large home or community, (agency investigations supervisor Angie) Voss had concerns for all the children there," CPS lawyers wrote.

Texas RioGrande Legal Aid attorneys representing the mothers argued in an April 30 court document that the state's "expansive definition of 'household' defies common sense."

The agency also argued that it would have been impossible to remove alleged perpetrators instead of children.

"How could the Department have identified the alleged perpetrator or perpetrators when the evidence demonstrated that the entire male and female population at the (Yearning for Zion) Ranch had been enculturated into the belief that under-age marriage was sacrosanct?"

The mothers contended that a mass hearing in Judge Barbara Walther's San Angelo courtroom was unfair. But CPS lawyers argued that the mothers' decision to intentionally confuse the children's identity left the judge no other choice. State officials have said the mothers and children gave conflicting statements about their names and relationships and tampered with state-issued ID bracelets.

The mothers, "by throwing up a wall of deception and engaging in a conspiracy of silence, waived their rights to individual hearings," the lawyers wrote.

Also, the department argued, for Walther to have conducted hundreds of separate hearings "would have been, at the very least, an extraordinary waste of judicial resources, as well as being a logistical nightmare."

State officials argued that the April hearing was fair, saying that the mothers had ample opportunity to cross-examine the state's witnesses.

Meanwhile, at a town hall meeting Thursday night about polygamy in St. George, Utah, that state's attorney general, Mark Shurtleff, assured residents that such a Texas-style raid would not happen there.

He also said his office is looking into helping Utah residents serve as foster parents to Texas FLDS children in their family, the Salt Lake Tribune reported. CPS does sometimes place children in foster care out of state.

Spokesman Patrick Crimmins said the agency has information about possible out-of-state relatives of the FLDS children. "It is being reviewed," he said.

Source: Marshall News Messenger.

[43north]

Definition of polygamy: one wife too many.

Definition of monogamy: one wife too many.

OK, just kidding. These perverts just won’t quit will they? “It’s outlawed so that makes it attractive to people.” Riiight! Murder is against the law so I guess that makes it attractive to certain people too.

Cretins!

[MizSterious]

Utah, Arizona reject polygamy prosecutions

States pursue charges of child abuse, domestic violence against church members

ROBERT MATAS

May 10, 2008

Both Utah and Arizona have rejected British Columbia's approach to responding to evidence of lawlessness in the polygamous communities of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The U.S. states pursue charges of child abuse and domestic violence against church members, but do not prosecute members simply because they are polygamous.

And Utah Attorney-General Mark Shurtleff and Arizona Attorney-General Terry Goddard have both ruled out a Texas-like raid of polygamous communities in their states.

Utah tries to use its resources to go after serious crimes, Paul Murphy, a spokesman for Mr. Shurtleff, said in an interview. "We're more concerned about what is happening to the children."

Mr. Goddard said in an interview that Arizona authorities will go after lawbreakers "not because they are members of [a polygamous religious] community, but because they break the law." The FLDS members are charged "only for bad actions," he said.

Utah outlaws polygamy. Arizona's Constitution prohibits legal marriage to more than one person, but the state has never adopted a statute making more than one marriage illegal. Polygamy is against the law in Canada.

B.C. Attorney-General Wally Oppal is considering whether to press criminal charges against polygamist FLDS members or refer the issue of polygamy directly to the courts for a clarification on whether Charter protections for freedom of religion trump the law on polygamy. The options reflect the advice of two Vancouver lawyers, Richard Peck and Len Doust, who concluded that polygamy is the root of the problem that leads to all other harms.

About 1,000 FLDS members live in the Creston area in southeast B.C. Meanwhile, the neighbouring cities of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, have about 10,000 FLDS members. Mr. Shurtleff and Mr. Goddard set out their approach to the FLDS communities in recent correspondence with Nevada Senator Harry Reid, who is the Majority Leader in the U.S. Senate.

Law enforcement agencies, state and local service agencies, advocacy groups and members of the community came together to figure out better ways to offer services and ensure that victims of domestic violence and child abuse could access the services, they stated.

A training curriculum was developed for child-protection workers dealing with victims from polygamous communities. New 24-hour, toll-free help lines answered by professional counsellors were opened, and promoted with billboards and bumper stickers. Both Arizona and Utah also passed new child bigamy statutes to facilitate the prosecution of crimes involving plural marriages of underage girls to much older men.

Several civil and criminal investigations were launched, leading to the following changes:

A Utah police officer was convicted of having unlawful sexual relations with his 16-year-old sister-in-law and bigamy for making her his third wife.

Six Hildale and Colorado City police officers lost their jobs for failing to report numerous cases of abuse.

A justice of the peace was removed for not enforcing the law.

Eight members of the FLDS were charged with sexual abuse of a minor and conspiracy to commit sexual abuse. So far, six of the men have been convicted.

The Colorado City school district was placed in receivership, the superintendent and board were removed and an independent receiver was appointed.

The Utah courts took control of the United Effort Plan Trust, which owned the FLDS properties and FLDS-run businesses with assets worth nearly $200-million. Utah probate court replaced those controlling the trust who the court found were using the trust assets for their own benefit.

Mr. Murphy said the government agencies have helped hundreds of victims of domestic violence and child abuse who have left polygamous communities in the state, including those who left the FLDS community.

"If a child is being abused, we need to know about it," he said.

Seumas Gordon, a spokesman for the B.C. Ministry of Children and Family Development, said the government provides a range of services in Creston that include child protection, sexual abuse intervention counselling and parenting support.

Liberal MLA Bill Bennett (East Kootenay) said in an interview that the government has placed a social worker in Creston specifically to support women and children in the FLDS community. "The real issue is the fact that governments have not found a way to prosecute on the federal polygamy law," Mr. Bennett said.

Source: Globe and Mail.

[MizSterious]

"Sounds like a great idea"

Really? Most people who have looked a little bit beyond the thought of having group sex or sex with lots of women think differently. Here's one:

Research across cultures consistently reveals that women in polygamous families experience greater emotional and mental health difficulties than women in monogamous relations, while the children of polygamous families are more likely to have limited educational achievement and experience emotional difficulties (Committee on Polygamous Issues 1993; Al-Krenawi 2001; Al-Krenawi and Lightman 2000; Al-Krenawi and Graham 1999; Al-Krenawi et al. 1997). However, the effects of polygamy are mediated by such factors as socio-economic status, level of education, community support, cultural acceptance, size of the family, co-wife co-operation and conflict resolution mechanisms (Elbedour et al. 2002; Al-Krenawi et al. 2002; Madhavan 2002; Gwanfogbe et al. 1997).

Excerpt. You can read the rest at source.

[greyfoxx39]

FLDS Daily Thread Ping

[wolfcreek]

Would this put a stop to polygamy, marrying your dog, same sex, etc.?

Federal Marriage Amendment - H.J. Res 56

[TheDon]

The FLDS should have come to Cali where polygamy is no big deal!

[wolfcreek]

Can you add me please?

Since this is a *Texas* thing now.

[ExtremeUnction]

Why is polygamy illegal?? Who cares how many wives a person has?

[Politicalmom]

Good. Let Utah have them all.

[MizSterious]

Maybe the men who get left out? Maybe the daughters who are given away as soon as they reach puberty (which can be as young as 10)? How about the women, who lose most if not all of their freedom? Or the young boys, when they reach puberty and are forced out of the community (so that the old geezers get the young “celestial brides”)? Or the kids who never get to know their fathers, who have little time for individual guidance (one guy had 35 kids)—haven’t we seen what that does to families in some areas of our cities already? And we want more of that?

[Politicalmom]

PING!!

FReepmail to be added to the FLDS Eldorado Legal Case Ping List

[Politicalmom]

Not to mention the girls who will never have a REAL marriage.

[MizSterious]

I’d be all for that, except I really would feel badly about all the little girls being given to drooling old geezers for sexual slaves. Make it illegal to have children, and maybe I’d sign onto that, providing they don’t spread their poison to other states.

[trisham]

I’m not surprised.

[MizSterious]

I think the guys are think of TheDon’s Playboy picture; most of the women keep thinking of decrepit old lechers being the only “man of their dreams” these young girls will ever know.

[Colofornian]

Who cares how many wives a person has?

Real Americans care and have cared. In an era when petitions were unheard of (perhaps other than the abolition movement), Americans signed a 28-roll, 7 million signature petition & delivered it to Congress in 1898. What was the issue? Utah had delivered a polygamist to Congress, and Americans wanted him turned back.

Why is polygamy illegal??

It erodes and militates against monogamy, as does cohabitation, same-sex marriage, group marriage (5 men/5 women, for example), polyandry (you see nothing wrong with a woman who has 20 husbands?), etc.

[Alice in Wonderland]

From “FLDS 101” - A new blog containing information about the basic teachings and history of the FLDS Church.

“The Good Memories”

Life for the FLDS hasn’t always been the way it has been in recent years under Warren Jeffs’ rule. Prior to Warren Jeffs’ reign, things were much different. Before Warren Jeffs banned community events, dances, sports, church meetings, and other activities, the people interacted with each other in kind and neighborly ways.

Holidays were a favorite time in the small rural towns of Hildale/Colorado City (Short Creek) nestled below redrock cliffs. Rulon Jeffs establish a three-day Harvest Fest celebration that was attracted members from as far away as Canada. One person recalled fondly, “How fun was it to go on the hay rides at the Harvest Fest? My friends and I went mostly for the rides and to google over the Canada boys that came down.”

A July 24th celebration was also a grand event. This was “Pioneer Day,” a holiday in Utah to commemorate the arrival of the first pioneers in 1847. “I remember Uncle Fred [Jessop] riding a black stallion at the head of the 24th of July Parade every year. The stallion would be all decked out with tassels and silver, and everyone would cheer. Someone would usually throw candy from one of the floats, and the children would go wild after it.”

“I lived in Salt Lake and I always looked forward to going down south for October Fest, April conference, 4th and 24th of July and any other reason I could find to go down there. I loved to go down to the basketball court and I would play basketball from morning until dark. I would only quit long enough to grab something to eat. Everyone down there was so friendly and I miss those good ole days a lot.”

- - - snip - - -

TOPICS:

FLDS Life 101 – The Good Memories
FLDS Beliefs 101 – Casting out evil
FLDS Beliefs 101 – The Family
FLDS Beliefs 101 - One Man Rule
FLDS Beliefs 101 – “Keep Sweet”
FLDS Beliefs 101 - Apostates
FLDS Beliefs 101 - Arranged Marriages
FLDS Beliefs 101 - Gentiles or “outsiders”

http://flds101.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-beliefs-101-gentiles-or-outsiders.html

[brytlea]

Actually, it’s probably unwise to have smaller numbers of men father more of the children in a society, from a genetic perspective. I raise and show dogs. We have issues in all breeds, partly (and maybe mainly) because of problems associated with the size of the gene pools. One issue is called the popular sire syndrome, ie a few males are deemed really great, and so they are used more often as studs. Remember that ALL organisms have some bad genes. In nature, rarely does one individual swamp the gene pool with his genes, however, when one does, in a few generations, those bad genes become more prevalent in the offspring.

Of course, a few groups of polygamists won’t have an impact on the gene pool of the whole country, however, if polygamy becomes legal and large numbers of people decide to live like that, I think you would run into the same problems we have in dogs.

susie

[Admin Moderator]

I had to remove #4 because its original source, the Dallas Morning News, is on the restricted list.

Feel free to repost it as an excerpt and link.

[MizSterious]

Ug, sorry about that! (I have no idea what the story was, so it will have to just stay gone.)

[greyfoxx39]

Utah, Arizona reject polygamy prosecutions

[Awestruck]

I know I”m wasting my words on here but I”ll try again. Polygamy by itself when practiced by consenting adults does not equal child abuse, welfare fraud, or rape. There is a difference people.. I find the way many sheeple on here just listen to what the media feeds them very similar to liberals... why don’t you go out there and educate yourselves if you want to comment on something?
There are already laws against abuse, rape, and fraud.. prosecute those.. doesn’t mean that everyone who believes that adults can truly love more than one person wants children raped etc.... just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean it isn’t valid.. leave the government out of marriage. Why is it acceptable to have multiple mistresses and affairs but not ok for a man to do the right thing and marry 2 women that he loves? as long as they are all consenting adults, what business is it of anyone’s? There are plenty of people who believe this way who are not FLDS.

[ansel12]

“Attorney general Mark Shurtleff is said to be open to discussion of turning polygamy from a felony crime into a misdemeanor. This could mean that a man convicted of polygamy may spend a year or less in jail instead of several years in prison.”

---

Maybe they need to elect a non-Mormon Attorney General.

[Utah Binger]

Seems to me nobody is focusing on the “Bleed the Beast” mentality of these idiots. Sure they are screwing little girls and beating and sometimes killing the babies, but what about welfare fraud?

That should be very high on the list if indeed they are getting away with that.

[greyfoxx39]

I think the guys are think of TheDon’s Playboy picture; most of the women keep thinking of decrepit old lechers being the only “man of their dreams” these young girls will ever know.

[MizSterious]

So a guy fathers—let’s say 35, since we have an example of that—35 kids, with, oh, let’s say 21 wives. Can we talk about quality time with wives OR kids? How much of it can be allotted to each of the 56 people in that guy’s family? How much actual guidance can we expect those kids to receive? How much love and affection can those wives expect—or is it all just for sex? I can hear it now: Sorry, Betsy, no time for cuddling, Marge and Alice are waiting for their turns.

And then, how much joy among the wives, knowing that competition in this “marriage” is everything. One of the wives who left the fLDS told of how that very competition led to child abuse: if they couldn’t slap one of their sisters, they’d take it out on that sister’s kids.

Polygamy is just plain SICK. And that’s my opinion, and I’m entitled to it. If it ever does come up for a vote, I will campaign against it, not to mention vote NO.

[MizSterious]

Another view!

[Raycpa]

This is how homosexuals went from criminal behavior to state sanctioned marriage and a church sacrament in many churches.

After polygamy will come the decriminalization of pedophilia.

[greyfoxx39]

In an era when petitions were unheard of (perhaps other than the abolition movement), Americans signed a 28-roll, 7 million signature petition & delivered it to Congress in 1898. What was the issue? Utah had delivered a polygamist to Congress, and Americans wanted him turned back.

"In January, 1903, the Utah Legislature chose Mormon Apostle Reed Smoot to be the State's new Senator. The result was a nation wide protest, mainly organized through Protestant churches, against his seating in the U.S. Senate. The main accusations were that Mormons continued to practice polygamy cladestinely, despite the 1890 Manifesto, and that the Mormon Church continued to dominate political and business affairs in Utah and the Intermountain West.

Smoot's election to the Senate was seen as part of a Mormon conspiracy to pollute the national councils with their theocratic influence. Eventually a massive petition was presented to the U.S. Senate, which began what became a multi-year investigation into Mormon and Utah affairs. In the end Smoot retained his seat, and the investigative committee produced four massive volumes of hearing transcripts, which are one of our richest sources on Mormonism at the turn of the century. The transcripts in their entirety are available below in PDF format. These files are text searchable using Adobe Acrobat. Enjoy!"

Transcripts of Smoot Hearings

[greyfoxx39]

leave the government out of marriage. Why is it acceptable to have multiple mistresses and affairs but not ok for a man to do the right thing and marry 2 women that he loves? as long as they are all consenting adults, what business is it of anyone’s? There are plenty of people who believe this way who are not FLDS.

The logical progession of your post would be this: "Why is it acceptable to have multiple mistresses and affairs but not ok for a man to do the right thing and marry ANOTHER MAN that he loves?

[greyfoxx39]

I like mine better! It’s a mug shot!

[MizSterious]

LOL! “Prince Charmin”

(Spelling is intentional.)

[donna]

Sharia law comes to America in many ways.

[Forward the Light Brigade]

Is it really Polygamy? they legally marry only one woman in the eyes of the law. The rest are “Spiritual Wives” without legal standing. Is that polygamy? The thing wasn’t so bad when they were “marrying” girls 18 and over, its “Profit” Warren Pervert who changed things so his guys could marry girls right out of puberty. By criminalizing it they went underground. 1. Get Warren to change things or 2. have them elect a new prophet with a brain in his head and not his pants. Let the cult be more open—let them run restaurants or make cheese or something where they can interact with the world. They could even attract female members to join up—so they wouldn’t need to grow their own future wives but get new foolish people to don the funny dresses and make babies. There are some women who might like the life style.

[Flo Nightengale]

This is a repost of a reply I made on another thread, but it fits here. Polygamy lends itself to many abuses. In fact, I think what we're seeing with the FLDS at the YFZ ranch is the natural culmination of a "lifestyle" that is inherently destabilizing. Many focus on (and rightly so), the abuses of women and children, as well as possible welfare fraud and child labor law violations. But what I'm reading from many posters is that if there wasn't any abuse, they would have no problem with the practice of polygamy. I believe this is a misguided belief, and that polygamy itself is there at the root of all of these problems. This is NOT a victim-less crime between consenting adults. Here's why:

1. By allowing men to marry multiple wives, there is a risk of leaving many men with no women to marry. The costs of this include the abandonment of younger boys/men so the "competition" for wives is reduced or eliminated (as we've seen with the "lost boys"), as well as a competition for wives that tends to push down the age of marriage; and a "market" for more girls, which may push women to have more and more babies (sort of wife-producing factories).

2. Fathers in polygamous marriages cannot offer their children adequate attention. Children need their fathers (can we talk about the rampant social ills in communities where kids don't know their daddies?) How much time, love and devotion can a man with dozens of children offer to each child?

3. Polygamous marriages are inherently unequal and undemocratic.

4. Imagine the nightmare of a polygamous divorce. How do you divide children and property?

5. It is no accident that, as a rule, polygamy is illegal in modern, democratic societies, and legal in underdeveloped, autocratic ones. Modern democratic states do not legally allow polygamy. This suggests that the practice of polygamy gives rise to many practices that are antithetical to the development of modern societies, whose citizens have freedom and rights.

The consequences listed above are not all private ones, and as such, become concerns of those who live outside of these polygamous families/communities. It is not in our interest as a free nation to sanction polygamy, even if it is difficult to prosecute.

My two cents!

[Colofornian]

Smoot

I was actually referencing Brigham H. Roberts, who was elected to Congress in 1898. The petition was in regard to him. Smoot was a monogamist & actually pressured the Mormons to crack down on the polygamists (because of the pressure he was getting in D.C.). Roberts was a polygamist who had been arrested for having two wives in 1886. Despite that, and despite the "Manifesto" of the Mormon church in 1890, Roberts took yet a third wife in 1894 and was overhwelmingly elected to Congress in 1898.

(So the next time somebody pulls out the 1890 "Manifesto" as some supposed "move" against polygamy, remind them of their 1898 polygamy endorsement via their Roberts vote...It was, though, the Smoot hearings that led Joseph F. Smith to issue "Manifesto II" on polygamy in 1904, which historians regard as more of a "true date" in which the LDS turned against polygamy.

[sodpoodle]

Polygamy is against the interests of heirs, society and the natural order.

If a man could support, by his own efforts, dozens of wives and children then it would have been an acceptable evolution - however, if we have learned anything from history - it is than men & women protect their own biological offspring from deprivation. We are naturally competitive, jealous and territorial for that purpose.

It is also very obvious that in this modern world, the FLDS men are not supporting their dozens of wives and children - WE, THE TAXPAYERS ARE DOING SO!!!!!!!!!!! I very much resent supporting pedophiles collecting welfare and women.

[greyfoxx39]

Sorry I misunderstood...however, the link for the Smoot hearings is useful.

It was, though, the Smoot hearings that led Joseph F. Smith to issue "Manifesto II" on polygamy in 1904, which historians regard as more of a "true date" in which the LDS turned against polygamy.

So many manifestos, so little time....and Section 132 remains untouched.

[Colofornian]

Can we talk about quality time with wives OR kids? How much of it can be allotted to each of the 56 people in that guy’s family? How much actual guidance can we expect those kids to receive? How much love and affection can those wives expect—or is it all just for sex? I can hear it now: Sorry, Betsy, no time for cuddling, Marge and Alice are waiting for their turns. And then, how much joy among the wives, knowing that competition in this “marriage” is everything.

This is one reason why you had "spiritual leaders" like Brigham Young who was a nine-time divorcee--all from his polygamous wives. (That was almost 1 in 6 of his wives...and this was in comparatively low-divorce times of 1860s and 1870s...imagine what it would be now!).

A BYU history professor did a study of plural marriages in the Manti, Utah area. She discovered 83 divorces among 465 plural marriages...about 18% of them ended in divorce...35% of the polygamous men were divorced. Now keep in mind that these divorces occurred anyway despite the 19th century being less than a "divorce culture" and despite the fact that these women were told that their very celestial kingdom attainment depended on their marriage.

Even among Young's grandsons the problem was highlighted. Eugene Young wrote a very lengthy 1899 article in the North American Review I would encourage people to read called, "Revival of the Mormon Problem."

Eugene Young, who turned against polygamy & the Mormon church, wrote one of the reasons why Mormon women would so readily accepted polygamy in the 19th century: "Women were informed that the last dispensation--when Jesus Christ Himself should appear--was not far away, and that millions of souls were awaiting in the other world to be given 'tabernacles of flesh' before that glorious tie who entered the order, it was declared, should become gods and rulers and queens in the world to come, while those who held themselves aloof should be only anels and servants to the faithful. In the Mormon theology, it will thus be seen, polygamy is not a question to be decided on grounds of human inclination, but a great vital principle on which is hinging salvation for themselves and for those souls in a previous existence who cannot reach the highest glory without being born into this world. (Eugene Young, "Revival of the Mormon Problem," North American Review, p. 479)

[Colofornian]

Sorry I misunderstood...however, the link for the Smoot hearings is useful.

Oh, yes, it's extremely useful, because it shows the outright duplicity of the Mormon leaders when they were called to testify before Congress.

LDS apostle John Henry Smith told Congress he had trouble remembering his own birth date. One witness said that [LDS prophet Joseph F.] Smith must be employing his words differently from the way most men ordinarily use them...His testimony was one of the most damaging of the entire investigation. (B. Carmon Hardy, A Solemn Covenant, pp. 252-253)

[CindyDawg]

oh yea! Oh yea! Well if they do then the law better be equal. The women should be able to marry as men as they want too. Let the guys have to get in line for attention.

w

[Awestruck]

uh...maybe because polygny is blessed by GOD and homosexuality is NOT.. God blessed men in the bible with more wives.. he said homosexuality is an abomination..

[Awestruck]

except I wasn’t addressing mormonism or “56 wives”.. I was talking about what is wrong with one man loving and marrying 2 wives? most on here don’t think its possible.. most think its about sex... true polygamy isn’t about getting more sex.. if thats all it were about, a man could just get a woman on the side and not have to deal with our backwards society when he actually tried to marry the other woman.. but then again most people who refuse to accept it can’t see past they end of their noses..

[CindyDawg]

IMO this polygamy issue is being raised to take attention off what is happening in Texas. From what I read, polygamy wasn’t going on. I might not like it but it’s their choice if adults want to live together. The raid was about suspected child abuse.