Pro-Homosexual Denominations Lose Numbers

Magic City Morning Star ^ | Grant Swank

[Non-Sequitur]

No, the point Jesus made about divorce is that people who thought themselves sinless really were not sinless.

You might want to go back and read it again. Jesus said that those who divorce and remarry commit adultery against their former spouse. He was quite clear on that. Baptists don't seem to accept His teachings in that area.

[Non-Sequitur]

I said, the point was not whether it is a worse sin. On its face, it is not. The problem is the insistence that it is not a sin. Congratulations for weakest response of the day. You tried to make my post mean the opposite of what it was.

And what, or who, decides which sin is worse?

[wideawake]

There's no way those numbers will look good, because they aren't.

I would point out that this 1965 peak in membership coincides with the end of the baby boom and the beginning of nationwide commercial availability of oral contraception - a recreational drug whose most avid users were middle class WASPs.

The numbers of these denominations aren't just smaller, their average age is much higher now than it was in 1965.

[.44 Special]

Indeed. I have een spoken to some ministers who openly confess that they no longer believe in God.

So it must have become just a pofession instead of a calling. Would you want to be a member of a congregation ministered by such a person? It is my understanding that this is not an uncommon situation.

[Wallace T.]

Back in 1991, the issue of ownership of churches came up with respect to Highland Park Presbyterian Church in Dallas. The congregation had been a stalwart on the conservative side of the PCUS, the Southern Presbyterian church, with Dr. Clayton Bell, Billy Graham's brother-in-law, as the senior pastor. During the Northern-Southern merger in 1982 that led to the creation of the PCUSA, conservative Southern churches were offered a ten year option to secede from the united denomination by a two-thirds vote of the church members and, if successful, leave with their property intact. Although Dr. Bell, the church staff, and the elders opposed secession, a majority of church members, although less than the required two-thirds, voted to do so. Highland Park Presbyterian remained in the PCUSA, but a large number of its members left to join the PCA-affiliated Park Cities Presbyterian Church.

One of the enticements PCA representatives offered to encourage Highland Park members was that in the PCA, the presbytery would never try to take control over the church property from a recalcitrant congregation, as it would permanently belong to the congregation. PCA congregations have left to join other denominations from time to time without any action to restrain them. PCUSA congregations have had to fight hard to prevent interference from the presbytery.

Now perhaps the PCUSA is bluffing, but I understand the national headquarters has raised a war chest of $2 million to fight secessionist congregations in the civil courts.

[STONEWALLS]

...Our Presbytery stands firm on the section of the PCUSA Constitution that specifies property of the church is held by Presbytery in trust for the denomination...with an annual budget of only $70K there’s little chance of our congregation prevailing in court...and even if we did, it’s improbable that settlement money could be raised to buy back our freedom....Presbytery knows this, and I doubt they lose much sleep over what the “Wee Kirks” might do.

...what they do take seriously however, is open defiance by a powerful church like Highland Park that Wallace mentions in post #105...they know that such a church could throw lawyers and money at them and never flinch...the problem is, litigation drains both sides....my sense is that the denomination is slowly shifting towards a “go in peace” attitude....the following information comes from the 218th General Assembly held last month:

“Gracious response to churches leaving.
The Assembly also considered a Commissioner Resolution that urges a gracious, pastoral response to churches wanting to leave the PC(USA). In commenting on the resolution, Minister commissioner the Rev. Robert Austell of Charlotte Presbytery observed that the resolution intends to underscore that “we are more interested in shepherding the ship with grace than with litigation.” Item 04-28 was approved with a vote of 519-157-8.”

[PAR35]

my sense is that the denomination is slowly shifting towards a “go in peace” attitude

I'll believe that when I see a change in the actions of Louisville and their lackies at the Synod level. The $2million litigation fund suggests otherwise.

what they do take seriously however, is open defiance by a powerful church like Highland Park that Wallace mentions in post #105

The previous pastor left HP in a weakened position in dealing with the denomination (he could have pulled an almost unified church out to the denomination of his choice in 91, but his ego and personal feelings got in the way.) But I don't see how HP can avoid a move to the EPC in the next few months. I would guess that the Presbytery would let them go in exchange for a cash payment which they could then use to whip the smaller congregations into line.

[Sans-Culotte]

Jesus said that those who divorce and remarry commit adultery against their former spouse.

In other words, they committed a sin , when before they felt they had not. Thanks for confirming what I already said.

[Straight Vermonter]

Today the use of the word “fruits” in that passage has a second meaning.

[Straight Vermonter]

Yes, here in New England lots of oceanfront and lakefront property has been owned by churches since the original settlers bequeathed them.

[Non-Sequitur]

In other words, they committed a sin , when before they felt they had not. Thanks for confirming what I already said.

Hardly. According to Jesus those who divorce and remarry are living an adulterous life. Not a single sin but continuous.