Replies

THANKS--GREAT RESPONSES:

jo kus

to Quix QX: 1. I don't believe Believers LEADERS particularly are routinely called, per se, primarily to be political lackys in a flesh driven system of buying and selling influence . . . . lobbying

Agree. But lobbying is a necessary evil in our system of government, isn't it? What happens to stands that have no lobbyist support?

QX: A reasonable point. However, a huge part of me suspects that IF CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND PARISHIONERS OF ALL TYPES WOULD FOCUS ON WALKING THE TALK AND SEEKING GOD'S FACE AND CALLING ON HIM [AND doing their Christian-citizen duty of writing and calling their legislators] in such matters, the lobbyists would be running around playing futile catch-up to God's moving in the situations on a list of issues.

I don't think Moses or Paul were much into lobbying other leaders. Paul was persuasive with leaders about the truths of The Gospel. However, mostly, he let the POWER AND DEMONSTRATION OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT do the lobbying.

QX: 2. Christians and particularly Christian leaders ARE CALLED to state forthrightly THE TRUTHS OF THE GOSPEL . . . GOD'S STANDARDS AND GOD'S PRIORITIES--TO FORCEFULLY [AND LOVINGLY] DELCARE THEM. Sometimes LOVINGLY = STERNLY--WITH CONSEQUENCES.

JOK: True, that was never the issue - the issue is whether they do it to 'be correct, who cares about their salvation' or to 'save souls'. I think we can say the later is the motive of people like Paul.

TRUE. TRUE.

QX: 4. What RC Bishop has publicly on CNN consigned what politician to satan for the destruction of the politician's flesh that his soul might be saved? What are they waiting for--150 or 500 million murdered infants? Is THAT the trip-line for decisive courageous Christian declarations from the bureaucratic hierarchy? Or maybe the RC edifice is waiting for the beautiful cathedrals to be buried in baby skulls in garbage bags before their Bishops scrounge some cajones? <.i>

JOK: No one is arguing that the bishops in America have been doing their best job on this subject. We can look to other countries and see bishops take their jobs more seriously. However, we have a different culture now. You just cannot ORDER people to do "x", after years and years of disobedience from the BISHOPS THEMSELVES here in the US! Perhaps if the bishops here would not have been largely in dissent on a number of matters in regards to Rome, is it surprising that the bishops here are not taken very seriously? This is the culture we live in now - "I'll do what I want". Largely a Protestant culture pervades our society. Obedience to self. At any rate, it is going to take a lot of time, prayers and effort to change this culture here - if it is possible. I am not sure that mass expulsions of numerous nominal Catholics is the answer, nor do I see a precedent for that in Scriptures.

QX: I do NOT think this culture is necessarily more of a watered down apostate Proddy culture than it is an apostate RC culture. Leaders of both camps have abdicated, rebelled, misrepresented Christ and utterly failed generally.

QX: Sooooooo some of the Bishops evidently need excommunicated, too. The time for fantasies about changing the culture are past. GOD ALONE WILL CHANGE THIS CULTURE. And He WILL DO IT BY FLUSHING OUT OF EXISTENCE IN THIS TIME/SPACE DIMENSION ALL EVIL DOERS. That much IS CLEAR about the end times, Armageddon etc. We can either get WITH HIS PROGRAM or briefly enjoy the swirling water . . . er fire.

Oh, I see some precedents in Scripture! The earth swallowed up some rebels in Moses' time. There are other Scriptural examples. And WE SHALL SEE MORE AND MORE DRAMATIC SUCH IN OUR ERA. I kid you not. I actually expect God to take out most of the congress critters . . . uhhhhh . . . emphatically from public life . . . via one means or another. I just don't know the timing nor the results. Perhaps they will all have chronic incapacitating diarrhea fromt he OTHER end, for a change! LOL.

I do believe that such actions and such a stance by a number of Bishops--even one--would galvanize the RC parishioners and force many of them to choose more consciously and more thoughtfully between God and satan. THAT WOULD BE TO THE GOOD.

5. What's the criteria for stern spiritual declarative action?

JoK: I think Matthew 18:15-17 is the general idea. Keeping in mind that Christian leaders are not to "lord it" over those they lead. It is a difficult situation and am glad it is not upon me.

QX: 6. Playing WIMPY VERBAL FOOTSIE with demonized globalist traitorous legislators is not my idea of PREACHING, MODELING, DECLARING THE GOSPEL to any significant degree. What RESULT do you REALLY, TRULY, ACTUALLY EXPECT from such verbal mutual masturbation exchanges?

JoK: I don't think I have much more to add to this rant. But I think it calls for a more measurable response, given the reality of the culture the bishops now face (part of which THEY have reaped...).

QX: What sort of more measured responses would you suggest? I understand the merit in such. However, I think the time for that has largely passed. They have had measured creeping compromise upon compromise as a result of the best Marxist globalist manipulations for decades. The result has been this horrid UNBiblical mess. NO MORE SUCH!

JoK: Have trust in the Holy Spirit, Quix. We must do the best we personally can do to spread the Gospel, including the teachings on life, to those who contemplate such issues or are swayed by the liberal media.

QX: Certainly so. Certainly so. The best I can . . . for me . . . include calling errant, UNBiblical spiritual leaders to Scripture, To God, to task. I have little to no power to influence them but I must declare as I am pressed in my spirit to declare. God will do what He will with such in terms of administering HIS consequences. However, I've seen sufficient such to know that I CANNOT abdicate the place and role HE has put me in vis a vis such declarations.

I GREATLY appreciate your thoughtful response. thanks tons. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Wonderful, thoughtful and Christian responses. Thanks.

However, a huge part of me suspects that IF CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND PARISHIONERS OF ALL TYPES WOULD FOCUS ON WALKING THE TALK AND SEEKING GOD'S FACE AND CALLING ON HIM [AND doing their Christian-citizen duty of writing and calling their legislators] in such matters, the lobbyists would be running around playing futile catch-up to God's moving in the situations on a list of issues.

Quix,

In a perfect world, we'd see that. Of course, I agree. But even reading the Scriptures and seeing the subject matter of the Epistles, I think you would agree that there has not been a "perfect" community. Take Corinth! I imagine it gave Paul countless sleepless nights! We, as a community, are called to be a "city on a hill", but the reality is we often are not. I suppose we can ask God why He doesn't instill within our brothers a more "loving" attitude or that we wouldn't need lobbyists - Congressmen would naturally KNOW that abortion was murder... But we know the human situation and we have to deal with it. More later.

Moses was also the leader in secular matters for the Israelites, as religious and secular were intertwined to a large degree. Lobbyists are persuaders, aren't they? As to the Spirit "doing the lobbying", he does THROUGH other people. Wouldn't you agree that Paul saw himself as a tool or instrument of God? That is how God works in the world, through nature, people. We normally experience God through events in our lives or other people - that appears to be the normative manner that the Spirit blows.

I am not saying the cause of our problems are "Protestant culture" as if to say it is our separated brother's fault! No, not at all. I am saying it is a "Protestant mindset", if you will, the idea of "rugged individualism". The idea that no one has final authority over me except my God and myself. This is a foreign idea to "Catholic" culture. "True" Catholic culture looks to their leaders - who have done a crappy job in the last 40 years. We see our leaders disobeying THEIR leaders, so the example is "why should I obey"? The virtue of obedience and child-like faith is lost on people who are more likely to follow themeselves.

Perhaps it is a misnomer to call it "Protestant culture", since it stems from the first sin in the Garden, the desire of the individual to judge right from wrong regardless of what God says. But I see this is a big part of the problem. Those in the pews (perhaps you can vouch for your congregations) have lost respect for their leaders and do not take them very seriously, especially on personal matters such as sex and abortion. I think here in America, the problem is becoming more open and universal.

Hmm. Interesting idea. I confess I wouldn't mind to see some bishops severely reprimended. But I think many people see the Church heirarchy as analogous to a large corporation. However, it is not that way. It is more like a large family. The bishops are equals, and the Bishop of Rome is "first among equals". With these two things in mind, it is much more difficult for the Pope to undertake the disciplinary actions that some of us here would desire. Should an "equal" boot someone out of the Church or defrock someone? What sort of backlash will result from this "lording it over them"?

I have heard of an example of one bishop who got married to a Mormon, I think, and he was subsequently defrocked after Rome attempted to call the bishop back to his senses. In the distant past, some bishops who were teaching heresy were also defrocked. However, the worry I see from Rome is the possibility of "causing" another schism... Overly zealous action could cause several bishops to take their flocks and start a "parallel" church. Our history is full of such divisions. We see it here in America with the "Old Catholic Church" and the "SSPX" that began in France. I think THAT is what really is holding a more firm hand back in Rome. And it is very unlikely that the USCCB will discipline their own since they don't have the power to do so.

Like I said before, it is not so easy to just lay down the smack on some of the bishops.

I see some precedents in Scripture! The earth swallowed up some rebels in Moses' time. There are other Scriptural examples. And WE SHALL SEE MORE AND MORE DRAMATIC SUCH IN OUR ERA. I kid you not. I actually expect God to take out most of the congress critters . . . uhhhhh . . . emphatically from public life . . . via one means or another. I just don't know the timing nor the results. Perhaps they will all have chronic incapacitating diarrhea fromt he OTHER end, for a change! LOL.

Yes, Numbers 16. Interesting passage. I agree that God will eventually take action. And I recall a saying from St. John Chrysostom from 1500 years ago - "that way to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" (or something like that). I think the Church has always had to deal with bad bishops and priests. Christ Himself said wolves would enter the sheep pen. We try our best to expose them and pray that other people see them for what they are, and as such, lose their effectiveness to drag people away from God by their knowing or unknowing subterfuge.

I think the best of our bishops are doing an excellent job - and I think this is leading up to something more drastic. I do think we will shortly see some of the better ones begin to refuse the Eucharist to particular politicians who are especially scandalous. I believe Bishop Burke is already doing that. But I think the time is quickly approaching where we will see a "confrontation" between our values and the values of Obama and his culture. I think in the next four years, the Church will be FORCED to choose, as the question is pushed to the forefront. I think if we continue to support our better bishops and pray for them, they will receive the graces and courage to act the part of bishops like St. Ambrose, who called the Emperor to task (risking his life, no doubt).

Many of the bishops have gotten too comfortable in their "CEO" positions, as some feel they are more of an administrator than a teacher and protector of the faith. Perhaps the Pope needs to write an encyclical to remind them. I do agree with you that something needs to be done. I think it will be more "measured", more gradual. And I think it will rely on "grass roots" support - which we will attribute to the Spirit of God moving the "Sense of the Faithful".

I have little to no power to influence them but I must declare as I am pressed in my spirit to declare. God will do what He will with such in terms of administering HIS consequences. However, I've seen sufficient such to know that I CANNOT abdicate the place and role HE has put me in vis a vis such declarations.

I think it is very helpful that non-Catholics of good faith also show their support, as we are on the same side in this battle for the minds of those within this country. We realize that God's truth will set people free. We have experienced what Christ can do in our lives NOW! We need to share that with others - that it is not just about getting a "bus ticket" to the "pie in the sky". That having God in our lives (and taking His Law seriously) is advantageous to us now in THIS life - that many of our problems in society would be cured or alleviated IF more people became Christian in their mindset.

As such, continue to have zeal for God's Word and call our leaders to task. Continue to pray and rely on God's Plan, a Plan that will not fail.

Regards