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Chasm dividing Americans over birth certificate widens
WND ^ | November 28, 2008

Posted on 11/28/2008 9:00:33 PM PST by ckilmer

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To: omniscient
"This will only get traction if it is made an issue in the MSM. And the only circumstance in which they will acknowledge this is if Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, etc. begin to harp on this on a daily basis.

These guys have to stop worrying about Fairness Doctrine and pick up the ball. Or are they just afraid of being made to look like fools in case B.Hussein O. actually comes up with proper documentation?

As it stands, they are starting to lose credibility by ignoring this elephant. And worse yet, they are enabling Hussein's fraud, since MSM thinks if talk radio is ignoring this, they can too. "

Here here.

Actually, if you look around, you'll see that this issue is starting to be picked up by some mainstream press organizations. The weight and pressure of this story is forcing cracks in the MSM's containment field, and it just won't hold much longer.

If four Justices decide on December 5th to continue Donofrio's suit, this will blow up in the press. There just won't be any way to contain it any longer. Rest assured that the suits in the MSM have already plotted out their damage control campaign, should their blackout fail.

101 posted on 11/28/2008 11:15:09 PM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Windflier
Why so rude to me? It's obvious you misunderstood my post.

Should I sign "present" in each thread I read?

102 posted on 11/28/2008 11:15:15 PM PST by 1_Rain_Drop
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To: Windflier

Windflier, you should know me better than that on these BC threads. You know I feel as you do. I will not just lay down and take it. But you have to admit that basically until the shmeckles on TV say anything, it doesn’t exist, as far as most Americans are concerned.

Me? A vampire? Is there flying involved? Cooooool. Not into blood though — it’s not kosher.


103 posted on 11/28/2008 11:15:34 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: blackbart.223; Windflier

AFAIC, saying things completely suck isn’t necessarily a bad thing (not that bart is saying things completely suck)

On the bright side, no better time to reorders priorities than now. God’s moved to the top of my list.


104 posted on 11/28/2008 11:19:27 PM PST by Gene Eric
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To: Windflier

If four Justices decide on December 5th to continue Donofrio’s suit, this will blow up in the press. There just won’t be any way to contain it any longer. Rest assured that the suits in the MSM have already plotted out their damage control campaign, should their blackout fail.


They have a legal team working on allowing ‘Arnold’ in California to run, despite his not being ‘natural born’. This legal team just happens to be Obama’s old law firm. I think they will try an end run if the truth comes out, by legislating it away.


105 posted on 11/28/2008 11:20:13 PM PST by Sharrukin
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To: Sharrukin
I think they will be far more dangerous than you imagine. If history is anything to judge by, they always are. They come in packs and the RINO will not stand by you. Well this says it better than I can...

You vampires really piss me off with your attempts to sucker good patriots into pre-emptive surrender.

I think the story of the American Revolution says what American patriots will do a whole lot better than any scare mongering crap posted to this website or on the internet.

If you're that scared, you need to leave here, because when the moment comes, I know that you won't have my back. And don't think for a moment that you can slink into our brigades later. You will be remembered for who you are, vampire.

106 posted on 11/28/2008 11:25:51 PM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Gene Eric
"AFAIC, saying things completely suck isn’t necessarily a bad thing (not that bart is saying things completely suck).

They don't completey suck. It't just things could be better. But what the hell I'm still free and intend to stay that way.

Bart.

107 posted on 11/28/2008 11:30:59 PM PST by blackbart.223 (I live in Northern Nevada. Reid doesn't represent me.)
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To: Windflier

Scaremongering? I take it then that you are scared by reality. You go on about how your morale is going to collapse if things are not as rosy as you imagined. Bart.223 is right, if it ever came to it, you would collapse like a house of cards.

American patriot? Your brigades? We aren’t talking about Halo 3, or Red Dawn. Jesus, you have no idea!


108 posted on 11/28/2008 11:34:56 PM PST by Sharrukin
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To: Windflier
"If you're that scared, you need to leave here, because when the moment comes, I know that you won't have my back. And don't think for a moment that you can slink into our brigades later. You will be remembered for who you are, vampire."

This thread got started because people like you are pinning your hopes on the birth certificate issue. If it happens I will be the first to swallow my pride and admit you are right. What will you do if I right?

109 posted on 11/28/2008 11:38:03 PM PST by blackbart.223 (I live in Northern Nevada. Reid doesn't represent me.)
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To: CaraM

We can never give up. We will never surrender.


110 posted on 11/28/2008 11:40:01 PM PST by TheThinker (It is the natural tendency of government to gravitate towards tyranny.)
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To: Sharrukin
Personally, I think it will come to violence as the left feels they have the advantage and when they see power slipping from their grasp they will react as they have for the last 8 years. The difference is that this time they will have the power of the state behind them.

Waco, Texas, Elian Gonzales, and more will be repeated and much worse.

Yeah, and the British tax collectors had "the power of the state" behind them too. You can't honestly believe that red blooded Americans are going to simply surrender their arms and their freedom without a fight, do you?

The mettle of the law-abiding, taxpaying, flag waving patriot hasn't been tested on American soil in something like 150 years, but you can bet your axx it's still there.

It really chaps my butt to hear people tiptoeing around the idea that Obama and his minions might somehow implement an overwhelming and wholesale destruction of freedom in this country. If people honestly believe that to be a real probability, then they need to start loudly discussing what we're going to do about it.

Enough of the pansycake crap. Stop trying to spook everyone, and tell us what you're going to do to prevent it.

111 posted on 11/28/2008 11:42:17 PM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: fightinJAG
This doesn’t need “traction.” It is purely a constitutional/legal issue at this point.

By "traction," I mean that this issue needs to at least become public knowledge. I would guess that less than 5% of the American public is even aware that there are questions about Hussein's legitimacy. If every voter was made aware of the fact that their president-elect's country of birth and citizenship have not been conclusively established, I think there would be a whole lot more concern, despite the media's attempt to keep a lid on this. I have very little faith in SCOTUS to resolve this. They will conclude that this is too "political" and shut this down as soon as the formalities are done with.

I really like that idea of a national birth certificate withholding campaign as suggested in this thread. That would be a great one for Rush to instigate, a la "Operation Chaos."

112 posted on 11/28/2008 11:43:22 PM PST by omniscient
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To: TYVets

I prefer “Obama the Usurper”.


113 posted on 11/28/2008 11:45:03 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: FreeAtlanta
The dumb bastards on the left don't give a rats butt about the Constitution. They don't realize it is what gives them the freedom to be stupid.

Great post. You've said exactly what I wanted to but with the sarcasm and irreverence they deserve.

114 posted on 11/28/2008 11:46:16 PM PST by TheThinker (It is the natural tendency of government to gravitate towards tyranny.)
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To: ckilmer

“The Constitution means what we today decide it means,”

The Nazi’s would sometimes say “we decide who is a Jew” when they found one useful. From someones biography can’t remember who.


115 posted on 11/28/2008 11:47:37 PM PST by fishhound (Obama and company are trying to FOCAround with the Church.)
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To: Windflier
"Enough of the pansycake crap. Stop trying to spook everyone, and tell us what you're going to do to prevent it."

Have you ever faced death? This is an important question since you seem to question others on the subject.

116 posted on 11/28/2008 11:50:03 PM PST by blackbart.223 (I live in Northern Nevada. Reid doesn't represent me.)
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To: Windflier
Bart. Go read some history on the American Revolution for a while. It'll rekindle your sense of fighting spirit and hope for our future.

Re-reading Unintended Consequences at the moment. Good uplifting read.

117 posted on 11/28/2008 11:50:33 PM PST by Centurion2000 (To protect and defend ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic .... by any means necessary.)
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To: Windflier

Look. Have you seen those video’s posted of attack helicoters hosing down Iraqi insurgents with 30mm M230’s. Those guys getting hosed are YOU! Thermal imaging systems, 70mm Hydra rockets with flechette warhead, the whole nine yards. Bradleys, Abrams, and Strykers will be deployed against anyone who threatens them. The absolute firepower is enormous. It ain’t gonna be like the revolutionary war. Think the long war in Afghanistan against the Russians.


118 posted on 11/28/2008 11:51:31 PM PST by Sharrukin
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To: SatinDoll
Darth Vader ginsberg... first daughter of satan... does not surprise me.

LLS

119 posted on 11/28/2008 11:51:40 PM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
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To: Windflier

For those in Rio Linda... watch Gibson in the Patriot.

LLS


120 posted on 11/28/2008 11:53:09 PM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
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To: Sharrukin
Personally, I think it will come to violence as the left feels they have the advantage and when they see power slipping from their grasp they will react as they have for the last 8 years. The difference is that this time they will have the power of the state behind them.

Waco, Texas, Elian Gonzales, and more will be repeated and much worse.

Something to consider. You've never seen the feds go after a motivated group of Americans prepared to resist and kill agents that are out to kill them.

Some of the things the feds got away with (Weaver, Waco, Elian Gonzales) would have turned out MUCH DIFFERENTLY if they had hit a different group.

121 posted on 11/28/2008 11:54:22 PM PST by Centurion2000 (To protect and defend ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic .... by any means necessary.)
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To: fightinJAG
Please. Post on something besides the fact that you don’t like the tone of someone else’s posts.

FJ, I respect you, and read your well-informed posts on this topic with great interest. You bring something of value to these conversations and stimulate analytical thought and reason.

What I have a problem with is posters who come into these discussions and post the same defeatist statements over, and over, and over again.

Wanna talk about "weighing down the thread"? I can't think of a worse interruption and a worse downer to a serious conversation about the facts and the possible repercussions of this momentous issue.

There is every indication that the American people may finally have to confront the unthinkable... an actual coup d'etat of our constitutional government. People are rightly on high alert about this, and have mounting concerns about their entire futures, and those of their loved ones.

That being said, the sort of defeatist talk I've been protesting does nothing to bolster the spirits or confidence of the readers here, and in fact, does just the opposite; it kills confidence in our ability to effectively stop this menace.

I'm sorry, but when I see someone repeatedly posting defeatist, morale-busting posts in such a time as this, I can't help but ask them to stop.

Some of these posters' communications are no better, and serve no better purpose than what liberal trolls spew here.

122 posted on 11/28/2008 11:55:29 PM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Windflier
My knees do not bend so easily... I will stand and fight for freedom...

LLS

123 posted on 11/28/2008 11:56:31 PM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
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To: Sharrukin
Look. Have you seen those video’s posted of attack helicoters hosing down Iraqi insurgents with 30mm M230’s. Those guys getting hosed are YOU! Thermal imaging systems, 70mm Hydra rockets with flechette warhead, the whole nine yards. Bradleys, Abrams, and Strykers will be deployed against anyone who threatens them.

Mark my words, the first time active duty military assets like an Apache are used against citizens there will be more blowback than the feds know what to do with.

124 posted on 11/28/2008 11:57:00 PM PST by Centurion2000 (To protect and defend ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic .... by any means necessary.)
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To: fightinJAG
Does the nature of the potential harm, and the infrequency in which fact patterns raise the issue, militate for a more lenient standard for stating a claim?

I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that since many Americans entrusted Obama with their vote, that those who did vote would be the injured party if Obama is not natural born. Also, simply being on the ballot and not being a valid choice disenfranchises even voters who did not vote for him as he supplanted another cadidate who would be qualified based on birth status.

125 posted on 11/29/2008 12:00:17 AM PST by TheThinker (It is the natural tendency of government to gravitate towards tyranny.)
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To: Windflier; 1_Rain_Drop
Most of the time it's something so tiny that it was overlooked, or it hasn't had the chance to surface yet

But it has! From the factcheck.org page, quoted here Polarik's Blog (about 1/6 the way down on my browser)

"Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.

126 posted on 11/29/2008 12:00:19 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: Windflier

Thank you for your kind words.

I have no problem with your reasoning, just your tactics. To my mind, you said your piece-—say it twice, that’s okay, too. Then move on.

Repeating yourself just gives the other guy the chance to repeat himself.


127 posted on 11/29/2008 12:00:21 AM PST by fightinJAG (TWO BIG BUSH TAX CUTS EXPIRE AT THE END OF 2008. Happy New Year, love, President Obama)
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To: Sharrukin
I hope so, as I believe it will come to that, and what people may be asked to do isn’t an easy thing.

Ever seen a mother's reaction to a mortal threat to her child? She might be the mildest, most easy-going person you know, but when the threat arises, so does she, and usually in the most astonishing burst of bravery.

I think the American people are wary at this moment, but not yet at "threat" level. I don't know what will have to happen to push us there. I honestly hope we're not, because if we are, there's going to be hell to pay.

128 posted on 11/29/2008 12:04:14 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Windflier
"There is every indication that the American people may finally have to confront the unthinkable... an actual coup d'etat of our constitutional government."

My guess is you would be the first to fold when shots are fired in your direction. My current occupation is a paid body guard. Not much chance of being shot but the possibilty is there. What do you do?

129 posted on 11/29/2008 12:06:24 AM PST by blackbart.223 (I live in Northern Nevada. Reid doesn't represent me.)
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To: Centurion2000

Agreed, and the best hope is that they will do so well before they are ready.

We will know if things are getting ugly if they proceed with the Civilian National Security Force Obama and Rahm were talking about. They will call it something else and justify with other reasoning, but that IMO is the thing to watch for. Then we know they mean business.


130 posted on 11/29/2008 12:06:51 AM PST by Sharrukin
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To: blackbart.223

Alright, then. Why don’t you just keep telling us how hopeless it all is. Maybe you’ll talk some sense into us.


131 posted on 11/29/2008 12:07:17 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: omniscient

It’s true that the SCOTUS will try to avoid political issues. And that’s how our system is designed to work.

If they view this as a purely political question-—IOW, one regarding which no facts that have been raised raise a constitutional issue that is within their purview to decide-—then I hope SCOTUS so states and gives the nation, and particularly Congress, some idea of how such an objection can be raised in the legislative branch or Electoral College and resolved.

Now, if the SCOTUS were to hold something along the lines of, “Whew, this does look like a problem, but it’s up to the Congress, not the Judiciary to fix it,” THEN “traction” would be very necessary.

My point is that “traction,” strictly speaking, isn’t relevant to the decision on certiorari. That said, should the Court find grounds to grant cert., the fact that there is a widespread controversy on a matter of great importance, and no other means of resolution is apparent, might help push the question of cert. to the tipping point.


132 posted on 11/29/2008 12:09:11 AM PST by fightinJAG (TWO BIG BUSH TAX CUTS EXPIRE AT THE END OF 2008. Happy New Year, love, President Obama)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop
Why so rude to me? It's obvious you misunderstood my post.

Pardon me, if I erred. I'll take a moment and re-read what I replied to you about. It's not my intention to be rude to anyone.

133 posted on 11/29/2008 12:09:51 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Windflier

“Actually, if you look around, you’ll see that this issue is starting to be picked up by some mainstream press organizations. The weight and pressure of this story is forcing cracks in the MSM’s containment field, and it just won’t hold much longer.

If four Justices decide on December 5th to continue Donofrio’s suit, this will blow up in the press. There just won’t be any way to contain it any longer. Rest assured that the suits in the MSM have already plotted out their damage control campaign, should their blackout fail.”

You are right. There will be a full page add in Chicago Newspaper on Dec. 1st, and 3rd. Also, got an e-mail from Newsmax today about the BC issue. I’m seeing bigger name news organizations starting to pick up the story because I think they realize there are growing numbers of Americans who are seeing the light. I’ve been talking to an African American military person through youtube that voted for Obama and whose friends & family also voted for him. THEY ALL REGRET IT!! They have signed petitions and are in the process of sending letters to the Supreme Court. They were very concerned about the racial implecations as well as the Constitutional issues. They are very upset!! I wonder how many others that voted for him feel similar. I think there are more than we think!!


134 posted on 11/29/2008 12:10:57 AM PST by montesquieu
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To: Windflier; Strategerist
Ok. So where do we go from here?

If you’re up to speed on the depth of Obama’s treason, then you bear responsibility to do something about it.

What’s it gonna be?

Haven't thought it through, what's your suggestion on a course of action?

135 posted on 11/29/2008 12:11:35 AM PST by Doofer
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To: 1_Rain_Drop
Here's my comment to you:

Haven't visited the birth certificate threads much, have you? Obama has screwed up irretrievably with his obvious forgeries of government documents. He's toast. Either now, or later, but he's toast.

I was definitely being a bit snarky with you in my first statement, but I meant no harm. I've been charged up about some of the more negative posts on this thread tonight.

Sorry about that.

136 posted on 11/29/2008 12:14:55 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Centurion2000; Windflier; All
~~~Need math help here!!!~~~

Now,,,We got ‘bout 75,000,000 gun owners in the USA,,,

US Military is ‘bout 2,000,000,000,,,

LEO’s ‘bout 1,5000,000,,,

That makes US gun owners the largest land army on earth !

Now just where is this Mythical force gunna come from that's

gunna Whup our asses ???!?!?!?!???...;0)

137 posted on 11/29/2008 12:16:38 AM PST by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: Sharrukin
What you say is true... but the Military will not turn on their own countrymen so easily and if they do... there will be no Nation left for anyone to lead... if we fall... civilization around the world will fall... it will be the Mad Max syndrome.

I have a friend who is in some placement of merit in our Military... he tells me that the majority of them will always stand with the Constitution. I think we may be facing a split and two nations evolving.

Regardless... I would rather be dead than red. Yes, I have faced death... JESUS tells me there are worse things.

LLS

138 posted on 11/29/2008 12:16:59 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
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To: ckilmer

People of standing and stature need to keep pushing for the truth, even after the inauguration, if Obama is sworn in. The American people need to know whether someone has been so successful in subverting the Constitution.

And if not subverted, the American people still need a true asnswer as to how the nation can be kept in such doubt and uncertainty by men seeking high office.

I pray that this NEVER dies until all Hawaii and other records are unsealed. This is just as important to future elections as it is to this one.


139 posted on 11/29/2008 12:18:40 AM PST by John Leland 1789
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To: fightinJAG
In terms of eligibility to serve as President, is there a distinction between citizenship based on birthplace and citizenship based on descent?

I really think birthplace was most important to the FF's. They wanted immersion in the Constitutional system and the president to grow up loving and experiencing their country. It's hard to do that from thousands of miles away.

What is the effect on a child’s “natural born citizen” status if, having attained citizenship by (1) birthplace or (2) descent, subsequently that child is adopted by the citizen of a different nation and made a citizen of his adoptive father’s land?

Under the assumption that natural born means born on U.S. soil for the reasons I stated, Obama's elibility would also be voided this way.

If a child’s parent’s foreign citizenship, under the laws of that nation, descends to the child at birth, what effect, if any, does that have on the child’s “natural born citizen” status?

Here again, I would argue nothing, if born on U.S. soil.

140 posted on 11/29/2008 12:19:10 AM PST by TheThinker (It is the natural tendency of government to gravitate towards tyranny.)
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To: Yaelle
Windflier, you should know me better than that on these BC threads. You know I feel as you do. I will not just lay down and take it. But you have to admit that basically until the shmeckles on TV say anything, it doesn’t exist, as far as most Americans are concerned.

Man, I think I need to take a chill pill. First I got snarky with Rain Drop, now I called you out by mistake. Sheeesh... sorry about that.

I've just gotten so wrankled by some of the negative and defeatist posts on these threads that I kinda went on the warpath tonight. FightinJag yanked my collar upthread, too.

Scout's honor ~ I'll leave it be for the rest of the night. What's left of it anyway.

Me? A vampire? Is there flying involved? Cooooool. Not into blood though — it’s not kosher.

You made me smile ;-)

141 posted on 11/29/2008 12:20:30 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: TheThinker

I’m not a lawyer but it seems to me that since many Americans entrusted Obama with their vote, that those who did vote would be the injured party if Obama is not natural born. Also, simply being on the ballot and not being a valid choice disenfranchises even voters who did not vote for him as he supplanted another cadidate who would be qualified based on birth status.


You would think so, but unfortunately that is why the courts have thrown out most of the cases. They ‘have no standing’ as an injured party and the case is dismissed. It sounds crazy, but there it is.

Alan Keyes ran for President so he may have standing.

Donofrio’s case has standing but as I recall has been blocked by court bureaucrats standing in his way.


142 posted on 11/29/2008 12:21:28 AM PST by Sharrukin
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To: Windflier

You havn’t answered my question.


143 posted on 11/29/2008 12:22:25 AM PST by blackbart.223 (I live in Northern Nevada. Reid doesn't represent me.)
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To: fightinJAG
Your opinion is how I see things also. 2000 proved that the Court... when pushed to the limit... will decide matters highly political. We have a better Court today than we did then. I am praying overtime.

LLS

144 posted on 11/29/2008 12:23:17 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68

We know you meant 2 Million in the armed forces.

Well, I agree. The Federal government needs to remain afraid of a gun-owning population, and for right, Constitutional reasons.


145 posted on 11/29/2008 12:23:33 AM PST by John Leland 1789
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To: Gene Eric
AFAIC, saying things completely suck isn’t necessarily a bad thing (not that bart is saying things completely suck)

On the bright side, no better time to reorders priorities than now. God’s moved to the top of my list.

I'm hearing you, Gene. It hasn't been my intent to make people wrong for their feelings, but to shake them by their lapels and remind them that we're a long way from defeated.

I think I may have just shaken folks a bit too hard tonight. Apologies to all.

146 posted on 11/29/2008 12:23:59 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: LibLieSlayer

I agree, which is why Obama if he intends what we suspect, will target the military with extensive budget cuts, diversity programs with Obama Youth being the ‘diversity’, cutbacks, and starve it for spare parts. Carter did this and the readiness status dropped drastically.

A poll taken of military personnel stated that 53% of them intended to leave rather than continue serving for the next four years.


147 posted on 11/29/2008 12:26:41 AM PST by Sharrukin
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To: Sharrukin
They have a legal team working on allowing ‘Arnold’ in California to run, despite his not being ‘natural born’. This legal team just happens to be Obama’s old law firm. I think they will try an end run if the truth comes out, by legislating it away.

Yeah, I've seen that thread. After reading the article, I came away wondering if they'd ever read the Constitution. They seem to think that they can simply get a judge to overrule the Constitutional "natural born citizen" requirement. Geeeez....

148 posted on 11/29/2008 12:26:41 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68

LEO’s ‘bout 1,5000,000,,, = 1,500,000,,,Duh!...


149 posted on 11/29/2008 12:27:36 AM PST by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: Windflier
"I think I may have just shaken folks a bit too hard tonight. Apologies to all."

Think before you flap your gums.

150 posted on 11/29/2008 12:29:03 AM PST by blackbart.223 (I live in Northern Nevada. Reid doesn't represent me.)
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