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All-volunteer military has created a red-state Army in the U.S.
The Salt Lake Tribune / The Washington Post ^ | December 15, 2008 | Danielle Allen

Posted on 12/16/2008 8:16:22 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

In Hopewell Township, N.J., the veterans of American Legion Post 339 have put their building up for sale. "Today's vets don't come out," 82-year old Jim Hall told The Times of Trenton last month. The post is down from 425 paying members in the 1960s and '70s to 202 this year; only about a dozen regularly attend.

But it's America that has changed, not vets.

Since 1970, the population of the United States has grown by about 50 percent, from roughly 200 million to 300 million. Over the same period, the number of active-duty armed forces has fallen approximately 50 percent, from 3 million to 1.4 million. A far smaller percentage of the citizenry now serves in the military.

Whereas in 1969 13 percent of Americans were veterans, in 2007 only 8 percent of us were.

Even more important than these general demographic shifts is the change wrought by the end of the draft in 1973. Until then, military service was distributed pretty evenly across regions. But that is no longer true. The residential patterns for current veterans and the patterns of state-level contributions of new recruits to the all-volunteer military have a distinct geographic tilt. And tellingly, the map of military service since 1973 aligns closely with electoral maps distinguishing red from blue states.

In 1969, the 10 states with the highest percentage of veterans were, in order: Wyoming, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, California, Oregon, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Ohio, Connecticut and Illinois.

In 2007, the 10 states with the highest percentage of post-Vietnam-era veterans were, in order: Alaska, Virginia, Hawaii, Washington, Wyoming, Maine, South Carolina, Montana, Maryland and Georgia.

Over the past four decades, which states have disappeared from the top 10? California, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Illinois, all big_blue states that have voted Democratic in the past five_presidential elections.

(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections; US: New Jersey; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: armedforces; demographics; gatheringofeagles; maf; military; oefveterans; oifveterans; politics; redstates; veterans; wot
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Explains a lot.
1 posted on 12/16/2008 8:16:23 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
All-volunteer military has created a red-state Army in the U.S.

Why do you think Obama needs his "Civilian National Security Force". The volunteer military will probably simply refuse to fire on civilians that refuse to follow the government's illegal dictats should it come to that.
2 posted on 12/16/2008 8:18:58 AM PST by JamesP81 (Let the Great RINO Hunt of 2009 begin)
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To: JamesP81

Clears up the discussion as to why ‘progressives’ want to bring back the draft.


3 posted on 12/16/2008 8:20:40 AM PST by griswold3
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
This is the unspoken reason why the dems will re-instate the draft. They want to make sure they have political control over the military when they deploy units in red states and throughout the less-populated areas.

Red state troops are less reliable when it comes to strong arming the public into giving up their guns and religion....

4 posted on 12/16/2008 8:21:17 AM PST by x_plus_one (Muhammed and Allah = 2 memes destined for the ashheap of history.....)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
THIS is probably why Obama wants a "Citizen Miliary Group" as powerful and as well funded as the DoD.

Just think of it...an internal army of young, brain-dead, minority, hyphenated, indoctrinated, secularist, "youts", who will do whatever the Messiah says.

Methinks Obama is gonna shove Communism down our throats and is going to need an army of zombies around him IOT stay in office to accomplish his destruction of America.

5 posted on 12/16/2008 8:22:18 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
And tellingly, the map of military service since 1973 aligns closely with electoral maps distinguishing red from blue states.

Conservatives are the defenders of freedom, rights, capitalism which liberals hate.

6 posted on 12/16/2008 8:22:31 AM PST by mjp (Live & let live. I don't want to live in Mexico, Marxico, or Muslimico. Statism & high taxes suck)
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To: griswold3
Clears up the discussion as to why ‘progressives’ want to bring back the draft.

Yep. The 2nd Amendment might the last line of defense against tyrants, but the first is a volunteer military. And as long as it's a volunteer military, it's unlikely that the military could be used against American citizens. But if they ever re-institute the draft, that could change quickly.
7 posted on 12/16/2008 8:22:59 AM PST by JamesP81 (Let the Great RINO Hunt of 2009 begin)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s Catch 22.

If you have a war and reinstate the draft, then the draftees and those afraid of the draft will make sure you end the war and lose the war.

If you have a war and don’t draft, then you don’t have enough soldiers to fight the war, and winning it becomes a difficult, gritty affair for the soldiers and a cause for loss of popularity for the President who insists on toughing it out to victory.

If you try to nip potential world wars in the bud, you face the situation above but end up with far fewer casualties.

If you wait till we’re attacked and people get behind fighting the enemy, you end up with 10 or 50 times the casualties, but the President goes down in history as a great man.


8 posted on 12/16/2008 8:23:41 AM PST by patriciaruth (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1993905/posts)
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To: JamesP81
Why do you think Obama needs his "Civilian National Security Force". The volunteer military will probably simply refuse to fire on civilians that refuse to follow the government's illegal dictats should it come to that.

More likely they would just go over and join the rebels. Lets face it the military was less than respectful to Clinton, until he had placed his people in all the top spots. And he was no place near as bad as The One.

Also our current military has spend five long years learning the wrong and right ways to put down a rebellion in an urban setting. Every lesson learned about how to make and defeat IEDs can be applied to LA and Chicago as much as Baghdad and Basra. Obama will gut the military to ensure it doesn't turn on him when he tries to impose his Chavez style dictatorship.

/Tinfoil hat off.
9 posted on 12/16/2008 8:23:58 AM PST by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

In reality it is truly a BLUE STATE army.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=82973

This headline makes it sound like the Commies have the guns.


10 posted on 12/16/2008 8:24:14 AM PST by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascists inside and outside our borders, now ACT LIKE IT!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Even more important than these general demographic shifts is the change wrought by the end of the draft in 1973. Until then, military service was distributed pretty evenly across regions. But that is no longer true. The residential patterns for current veterans and the patterns of state-level contributions of new recruits to the all-volunteer military have a distinct geographic tilt. And tellingly, the map of military service since 1973 aligns closely with electoral maps distinguishing red from blue states.

Some random thoughts on this: 1. How much does the organized harassment of recruiters & disruption of recruiting efforts in "Blue States" play into this uneven distribution of servicemen? 2. I've noticed an increasing trend of veterans to 'retire' or seek civilian employment near one of their duty stations. Most of the remaining military bases are in the South.

11 posted on 12/16/2008 8:24:26 AM PST by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: x_plus_one; Joe Brower; DaveLoneRanger
deploy units in red states and throughout the less-populated areas.

Been along time since I brought out my "blue helmet" target paper for the farm. Guess I'll pull them out this weekend and zero in. If I a "New Yawk" Civilian Security Force in my region (the ozarks)....ther is gonna be alot of "never been fired, only dropped once" guns on the ground.

12 posted on 12/16/2008 8:26:03 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: griswold3

The draft is a triple header victory for the left.

It forces people to serve time against their will (slavery).
It reduces the effectiveness of the military.
It reduces the public’s willingness to use the military for national interest.


13 posted on 12/16/2008 8:26:15 AM PST by MrB (The 0bamanation: Marxism, Infanticide, Appeasement, Depression, Thuggery, and Censorship)
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To: Tallguy

The real truth is there are too many pussies in the Blue states to tip the scales.....


14 posted on 12/16/2008 8:26:37 AM PST by rightwingextremist1776
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To: GonzoGOP
It really makes one wonder, doesn't it?

I almost see a "Crossing the Rubicon" moment as Gen. Petraeus brings an armada across the Atlantic for a climactic showdown with Obama's Civilian Defense Force (principally made up of college students wearing t-shirts emblazoned with a marijuana leaf).

15 posted on 12/16/2008 8:27:01 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: rightwingextremist1776

Amen....we call them bullet magnets here in the South when ladies are present.


16 posted on 12/16/2008 8:29:59 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; JamesP81

From what I’ve read a while back, the division is even greater when it comes to actual combat troops vs. support units.


17 posted on 12/16/2008 8:30:04 AM PST by El Laton Caliente (NRA Member & www.Gunsnet.net Moderator)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Soooo...

The coming CW2 could result in a "Red State" Military v.s. The "Pinko" army... Can't wait to see the Zero's new uniforms!

18 posted on 12/16/2008 8:30:33 AM PST by JDoutrider (Heading to Galt's Gulch... It is time.)
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To: ClearCase_guy
principally made up of college students wearing t-shirts emblazoned with a marijuana leaf Che ).

Fixed it.

19 posted on 12/16/2008 8:31:09 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: MrB

You are correct, Sir. That’s why I always call you ‘The Worldly Mr. B’!!

Merry Christmas!


20 posted on 12/16/2008 8:31:21 AM PST by griswold3
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To: Tallguy
2. I've noticed an increasing trend of veterans to 'retire' or seek civilian employment near one of their duty stations. Most of the remaining military bases are in the South.

I think this plays a bigger part that some realize. I've had many friends retire to areas where there are large military bases for several reasons, and I think this influences the demographic shifts quite a bit.
21 posted on 12/16/2008 8:33:40 AM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: JamesP81
And as long as it's a volunteer military, it's unlikely that the military could be used against American citizens.

I'm not sure that I agree with that assessment. I would think that a force of draftees would be close to useless in a domestic insurrection. Witness the reluctance of Soviet Army units to put down local demonstrations during the final days of the Gorbachev regime. This was repeated over & over in Eastern Europe as communist governments attempted to quell public disturbances. IIRC, the Soviets were using their "Border Police" as fire brigades because they were more 'reliable'. And that stands to reason since you wouldn't put 'unreliable troops' close to the border where they would be likely to defect.

22 posted on 12/16/2008 8:33:41 AM PST by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: patriciaruth
If you have a war and reinstate the draft, then the draftees and those afraid of the draft will make sure you end the war and lose the war.

No fair studying history and using facts .

23 posted on 12/16/2008 8:33:56 AM PST by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it freedom has a flavor the protected will never know F/8 Cav)
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To: DCBryan1

I would be quite interested on how Obama would deploy his anti-red turncoats.

My first thought would be in high schools, similar to a Harry Potter film, students would get credits for ferreting out those not supportive of gay agendas, mandatory volunteerism,not willing to adopt re-training that is counter to the US Constitution.

I would also suspect they would swoop down upon anti-Obama protests though only time will tell how far they may go as to bearing arms.

I do know they will start infiltrating the internet as they are doing now but actively seeking out individuals places of residence.

I can think of several derogatory terms of his “army” such as Bluebritches, Bluecoats,Islamoyouths,Muslim Marchers,Husseins Henchmen, Baracks Brigade.


24 posted on 12/16/2008 8:34:30 AM PST by Eye of Unk (Americans should lead America, its the right way.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

look how they’re dividing us now!


25 posted on 12/16/2008 8:34:38 AM PST by Falcon4.0
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Aside from the military, the best armed general population is in the “Red” states.

The best armed civilians in the “Blue” states are concentrated in the inner city street gangs. These would be the cadres for Obama’s “Civilian Defense Force,”


26 posted on 12/16/2008 8:37:38 AM PST by Malesherbes (Sauve Qui Peut)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

ONOZ! Also, the NBA should be 86% white!


27 posted on 12/16/2008 8:37:56 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: ClearCase_guy
I almost see a "Crossing the Rubicon" moment as Gen. Petraeus brings an armada across the Atlantic for a climactic showdown with Obama's Civilian Defense Force (principally made up of college students wearing t-shirts emblazoned with a marijuana leaf).

"Crossing the Rubicon" is one analogy. Another, more recent one, would be the return to Spain by Francisco Franco & his conservative Army from (Spanish) Morocco. (If you can get past the Facist baggage that Franco carried, he did save Spain from Communist-Anarchist violence.)

28 posted on 12/16/2008 8:37:58 AM PST by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: ClearCase_guy

That’s only if us old warmongers leave any of ‘em still standing for Petraeus and the BITS to face.


29 posted on 12/16/2008 8:39:28 AM PST by Unrepentant VN Vet (...still considering my options.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Whereas in 1969 13 percent of Americans were veterans, in 2007 only 8 percent of us were.

The reasons for that should be patently obvious, WW2 vets don't live forever.

30 posted on 12/16/2008 8:40:31 AM PST by eclecticEel (In short, I want Obama given the same respect and deference that Democrats have given George Bush)
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To: kbennkc; patriciaruth

“No fair studying history and using facts .”


What are the facts?


31 posted on 12/16/2008 8:40:53 AM PST by ansel12 ( When a conservative pundit mocks Wasilla, he's mocking conservatism as it's actually lived.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Actually, I envisioned Obama’s legions all wearing Che shirts made of the finest hemp. Same end result, though. Molon Labe, mutha*****s.


32 posted on 12/16/2008 8:42:00 AM PST by OCCASparky (Steely-Eyed Killer of the Deep)
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To: rightwingextremist1776
The real truth is there are too many pussies in the Blue states to tip the scales.....

You definetly have a way of getting to the heart of the matter! Military service is not very much on the "radar screen" of Blue State Yoots. Their parents & teachers want it that way.

33 posted on 12/16/2008 8:42:23 AM PST by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Over the past four decades, which states have disappeared from the top 10? California, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Illinois, all big_blue states that have voted Democratic in the past five_presidential elections.

I'm not sure if this really means anything. I don't think it's also a coincidence that most (if not all) of these are all very EXPENSIVE places to live . . . which means: (1) young people in their immediate post-military careers simply can't afford to move there, and (2) retirees can't afford to stay there.

I would also point out that at least two of these four (Massachusetts and New Jersey) have been particularly hard-hit by base closings. These places will tend to have fewer military veterans simply because they now have fewer active military bases.

34 posted on 12/16/2008 8:42:25 AM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Sounds like a good time to secede again. This time the South and West make a go of it. Since those areas supply the manpower, we ought to have more say in how we are governed.


35 posted on 12/16/2008 8:42:52 AM PST by Crapgame (Palin/Coulter 2012)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Over the past four decades, which states have disappeared from the top 10? California, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Illinois

Well, duh. The states that are greying have a smaller percentage of military-age people.

36 posted on 12/16/2008 8:43:31 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: griswold3
‘The Worldly Mr. B’

Merry Christmas back atcha, and thanks for your intended compliment.

I have to tell you, though, "worldly" is generally not a compliment to a Christian... :)

1 John 4:4-6

37 posted on 12/16/2008 8:43:31 AM PST by MrB (The 0bamanation: Marxism, Infanticide, Appeasement, Depression, Thuggery, and Censorship)
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To: eclecticEel

And if you discount the Vietnam-era vets, it’s likely that far fewer than five percent of the age-eligble population ever served since 1973.


38 posted on 12/16/2008 8:44:18 AM PST by OCCASparky (Steely-Eyed Killer of the Deep)
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To: Tallguy

Good analogy. I guess we’d also have to get past the fact that Americans were volunteering on the wrong side in that one. LOL.


39 posted on 12/16/2008 8:47:12 AM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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Conclusion: there has never been a better time to suceed from the Union.


40 posted on 12/16/2008 8:48:28 AM PST by villagerjoel (1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual!)
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To: Malesherbes
The best armed civilians in the “Blue” states are concentrated in the inner city street gangs. These would be the cadres for Obama’s “Civilian Defense Force,”

Good point.

I'd nominate Plaxico Burress for Chairman of the "Joint" Chiefs of Staff.

41 posted on 12/16/2008 8:48:36 AM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: Tallguy

One more random thought: Red states, those with higher representation in our armed service, are also those states which have the highest birth rates. Coincidence?


42 posted on 12/16/2008 8:50:35 AM PST by eclecticEel (In short, I want Obama given the same respect and deference that Democrats have given George Bush)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
In 2007, the 10 states with the highest percentage of post-Vietnam-era veterans were, in order: Alaska, Virginia, Hawaii, Washington, Wyoming, Maine, South Carolina, Montana, Maryland and Georgia.

Statistics like this are a little too complex to easily boil down to red state versus blue state. For example, Virginia, Hawaii and South Carolina all have large military bases, so it's not surprising that a lot of of veterans end up settling, post-service, in those areas. Also, there are a lot of veterans living in Northern Virginia and Maryland because there are a lot of vets working for the government.

Better statistics to look at would be what States the recruits come from, rather than where they end up settling down post-service.

43 posted on 12/16/2008 8:50:58 AM PST by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Nice to see Wyoming on both lists. We have been pretty consistent in our support for the military over the years.


44 posted on 12/16/2008 8:51:18 AM PST by TChris (So many useful idiots...)
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To: DCBryan1

Yup... it will make the Hitler youth look like boy scouts. Just what we need, another entire class of surly, uneducated, do-nothing, know-nothing, arrogant, lay-abouts who hate America and live off of government (read-’taxpayer-funded’) revenue.


45 posted on 12/16/2008 8:52:07 AM PST by SMARTY ("Stay together, pay the soldiers and forget everything else" Lucius Septimus Severus)
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To: JDoutrider
"Can't wait to see the Zero's new uniforms!"


46 posted on 12/16/2008 8:57:33 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (Barack Obama: In Error and arrogant -- he's errogant!)
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To: Tallguy
Crossing the Rubicon" is one analogy

It is the closest, because unlike the commies in Spain the indolent youth of the big blue cities don't have the will for protracted fighting. If it really came down the CWII then the big blue cities would be extremely vulnerable to siedge. Blow a few bridges, cut the rail lines and blow the arms off the container crains and you could starve out a major US city without ever moving into the neighborhoods where Obama's supporters live. Heck just cut the power lines from Arizona and Nevada and blow up the big aquaducts and LA would colapse before they could repair the damange.

Even the Taliban and AQ are better trained to live outside the comforts of the civilized world. Most have never encountered them in the first place. They don't need electricity, internet, or McDonalds. They will just butcher a goat and read the Quaran. Obama will have to build his force from people who's idea of "Real Life" comes from a Berkeley California classroom. Take away their double espresso with a shot and they will freak.
47 posted on 12/16/2008 8:57:57 AM PST by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

In other words, we want a draft.


48 posted on 12/16/2008 8:58:15 AM PST by Tzimisce (http://groups.myspace.com/nailthemessiah)
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To: griswold3

Bring back the draft? Hell. They won’t even let Ivy League schools have ROTC


49 posted on 12/16/2008 8:59:44 AM PST by PurpleMan
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Explains a lot.

Yes, it does. It also make one hopeful that then the revolution begins, those chartered with quelling the insurrection will perhaps take less time to aim carefully. Or decide to 'enlist' on the right side.

50 posted on 12/16/2008 9:01:28 AM PST by RobinOfKingston (Democrats, the party of evil. Republicans, the party of stupid.)
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