Plato

300 BC | Plato

[Woebama]

"The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness. This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears above ground he is a protector.

"At first in the early days of his power he is full of smiles and he salutes everyone whom he meets. He to be called a tyrant, who is making promises in public and also in private! Liberating debtors and distributing land to the people and his followers and wanting to be so kind and good to everyone!

"But when he has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.

"Has he not also another object, which is that they may be impoverished by payment of taxes, and thus compelled to devote themselves to their daily wants and therefore less likely to conspire against him?"

[aberaussie]

Well, yes it is...that is why we are studying it...The co-op class that I teach is Ancient Literature from a Biblical worldview. Lots of discussion and comparison. I usually teach history or government classes, so this part of the class will be particularly fun for me because we will be able to compare Plato’s writing with current rhetoric.

[Lurker]

It's been a long time since anyone around here mentioned Piekoff's work.

L

[aberaussie]

It will be difficult, but hopefully we all will learn a lot, or at least a few things! ;-)

[Freedom_Is_Not_Free]

Sigh. Wonder how many people read Plato anything these days.

[ml/nj]

The co-op class that I teach is Ancient Literature from a Biblical worldview.

This just isn't fair! When will your kids read more modern literature like Heather Has Two Mommies?

ML/NJ

[bert]

My wants are few

Conspire, conspire, conspire, conspire

I truly love a good conspiracy

[betty boop]

I don’t believe Peikoff understood a single word Plato wrote. And I’ve read his book. Ayn Rand had the same problem.

[ml/nj]

Nah. You're right Rand and Peikoff were/are both idiots. And we should be grateful to those philosopher kings.

ML/NJ

[cornelis]

The lesson I learned from the ancients is that there are kinds. Kinds of everything. And the lesson I learned from Socrates is that there are good kinds and bad kinds. A very simple lesson, but very helpful.

• There are good philosopher kings and bad philosopher kings.
• There is good big government and bad big government.
• There is good small government and bad small government.
• There is good credit card use and there is bad credit card use.
• There is good use of a forum and there is bad use of a forum.
• There are good Republicans and there are bad Republicans.
• There are good readings of Plato and there are bad readings of Plato.
• There is a good side to the devil and a bad side to the devil. I also learned that honesty is a most difficult virtue.

[Loud Mime]

What determines good and bad is determined by one’s definition of Justice.

Good thread!

[ml/nj]

There are no good philosopher kings in the sense that Plato wrote about. These are people who have divined unto themselves a certain greatness and think that they should direct the lives of the less endowed others. Buckley had it right when he said (I'm paraphrasing now.) that he would rather be ruled by the first 100 people listed in the Manhattan phonebook than by the members of Congress.

As for good big governments, I wonder what your example could possibly be.

ML/NJ

[cornelis]

True, in part. I would put it this way: our understanding of what is good and bad involves our understanding of justice and the world that is part of. In fact, it may depend more on what is included or excluded from that world than on the best definition being used.

[cornelis]

I wonder what your example could possibly be.

Philosophy begins with wonder.

[ml/nj]

Instead of saying something silly, why do you not answer the question I put to you?

ML/NJ

[cornelis]

Because I considered you question silly—or at least uneducated.

If you study Western Civilization and take away the big governments, there won’t be much left.

[ml/nj]

If you study Western Civilization and take away the big governments, there won’t be much left.

I think you are confusing governments which administer a few aspects of the lives of many people, with governments which administer many aspects of the lives of even a few people. Cuba has a bigger government than the United States even though its government employs far fewer people than does ours. Our own government is much bigger now than it was 50 years ago, even when adjusting for the growth in our population during that time. Is this really a difficult concept? I'll mostly ignore your remark about education for the time being, but if anything is silly it would probably be suggesting that someone discussing Plato's Republic is uneducated.

ML/NJ

[cornelis]

It's OK to change the terms (credit cards, Republicans, or administering aspects of lives). The lesson I learned from Plato still applies. We can easily add to the list started post #29.

• There are good governments which administer a few aspects of the lives of many people, and there are bad governments which administer a few aspects of the lives of many people.
  
  
• There are good governments which administer many aspects of the lives of even a few people, and there are bad governments which administer many aspects of the lives of even a few people.
  

[ml/nj]

There are good governments which administer many aspects of the lives of even a few people

And a couple of examples are?

ML/NJ

[Dead Corpse]

The more things change, the more things stay the same.

History repeating...
and repeating...
and repeating...
and repeating...
and repeating...

[cornelis]

The Vatican, if you like. Otherwise, the United States.