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Vatican Demands Holocaust Denier Publicly Recant
New York Times ^ | February 4, 2009 | RACHEL DONADIO

Posted on 02/04/2009 4:16:31 PM PST by DeepThought42

Responding to global outrage, especially in Pope Benedict XVI’s native Germany, the Vatican for the first time on Wednesday called on a recently rehabilitated bishop to take back his statements denying the Holocaust.

Late last month, the pope revoked the excommunication of four schismatic bishops, including British-born Richard Williamson, who in an interview broadcast last month denied the existence of the Nazi gas chambers.

A statement issued on Wednesday by the Vatican Secretariat of State said that Bishop Williamson “must absolutely, unequivocally and publicly distance himself from his positions on the Shoah,” or Holocaust, which it said were “unknown to the Holy Father at the time he revoked the excommunication.”

The unsigned statement seemed a clear indication that the Vatican was facing an internal and external political crisis.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: holocaust; holocaustdenier; sspx; vatican; williamson

1 posted on 02/04/2009 4:16:31 PM PST by DeepThought42
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To: DeepThought42

UG. Holy Father, stay the course. Do not let these anti catholics sway you. You are the leader of the Catholic Church, the Barq of Peter. Not the Jews, Not the Muslims, Not the secularists. Lead your Church. Stand your ground. Please......


2 posted on 02/04/2009 4:21:29 PM PST by wombtotomb (since its "above his paygrade", why can't we err on the side of caution about when life begins?)
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To: DeepThought42

good


3 posted on 02/04/2009 4:21:42 PM PST by muir_redwoods (B. O. Stinks!!!)
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To: DeepThought42
Let's see now. It's more required to believe that six million died in the Nazi holocaust than it is to believe in Papal dogma infallibility??
4 posted on 02/04/2009 4:31:13 PM PST by ex-snook ("But above all things, truth beareth away the victory.")
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To: DeepThought42
I haven't been following this controversy too closely, but I don't really understand the fuss. As I understand it, the bishop is to have his excommunication annulled, but he is not to be a bishop again, is he? It's not like he'll have any position of responsibility in the church as a Holocaust denier. And excommunication is generally a matter of expressing seriously incorrect theological views, as opposed to committing very serious sins. And the ex-bishop has apparently satisfied the Vatican that all the purely theological controversies have been resolved, leaving it to God to judge the bishop's admittedly monstrous or bizarre views on the Holocaust. Do I have this about right? I am not Catholic, as may be evident, and anyone familiar with Catholic doctrine, whether Catholic or not, who can tell me why the pope's actions are problematic would be helping me a lot.

Unless this is all just a tribalistic squabble, where members of some groups are angry that members of other groups are attacking their group. Then I understand it all too well, because such things are so common these days.

5 posted on 02/04/2009 4:44:01 PM PST by untenured
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To: wombtotomb
Millions of Jews were slaughtered in gas chambers by the Nazi's and Hitler. To deny that as a man of God, you are being dishonest. To be dishonest about this massacre of men, women and children weakens the trust between this man and his flock and the church. If he would be dishonest about this, what else would he lie about? The church is absolutely right to demand a retraction. As a Catholic, I am disgusted how the church and the Pope have handled this thus far. If the Pope fails to lead in this time of crisis, he should be removed.
6 posted on 02/04/2009 4:44:47 PM PST by utahson
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To: untenured

I think once he was made a Bishop, he remained a Bishop. It was that he was made a bishop by an ArchBishop without permission. In fact, the Pope had explicitly forbidden the Archbishop to do this.


7 posted on 02/04/2009 4:48:58 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: untenured
The excommunications date back to I think 1983. The Pope has longed for a regularization of the SSPX, put things in motion with his freeing of the Latin Mass, and had moved on to the next step of unification by lifting the excommunications.

A Swedish interview with Bishop Williamson, done in Sept., was held and then released at the same time as the Pope's action.

It is being alleged, and I find it quite easy to believe, that this was done on purpose to sabotage Pope Benedict.

The exommunications were related to doctrine and obedience, had nothing to do with the statements by Williamson, who should have kept his mouth shut and has been since ordered to do just that on issues pertaining to politics and history.

8 posted on 02/04/2009 4:49:04 PM PST by Lorica
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To: utahson
As a Catholic, I am disgusted how the church and the Pope have handled this thus far. If the Pope fails to lead in this time of crisis, he should be removed.

As a Catholic, I am disugusted by your comment.

9 posted on 02/04/2009 4:49:53 PM PST by Lorica
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To: utahson

Careful where you swing that “dishonesty” stick “utahson.” The eye you beam may be your own...


10 posted on 02/04/2009 4:53:54 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Patriotic1

So if in the eyes of the church Mr. Williamson is not and never was a bishop, and if he apparently is satisfied with that resolution of the matter, the whole controversy is whether the pope can decide that a Holocaust denier is or is not merely a member of the Church?


11 posted on 02/04/2009 4:55:12 PM PST by untenured
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To: untenured

He is a bishop.


12 posted on 02/04/2009 4:56:32 PM PST by Lorica
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To: Philo-Junius

So by denying the the slaughter of 6 million Jews he is not being dishonest?


13 posted on 02/04/2009 5:03:10 PM PST by utahson
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To: Lorica

So if Archbishop Lefebvre made Mr. Williamson a bishop, even though it was against the instructions of the then-pope, he was in fact according to Catholic doctrine a bishop after that point, and is still now, now that his excommunication has been rescinded?


14 posted on 02/04/2009 5:04:45 PM PST by untenured
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To: Lorica
So in your thinking it is okay to keep those that are dishonest within the Church and are willing to lie about well documented history?
15 posted on 02/04/2009 5:06:08 PM PST by utahson
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To: untenured

No; in the eyes of the Church Bp Williamson is in fact a Bishop, though his consecration was illegal. This act leaves him suspended, not rehabilitated.

The whole controversy is that people who know better are playing the ‘holocaust’ card pretty heavily in their never ending war against the Roman Catholic Church.

The Pope does not have the right to excommunicate anyone based on that person’s view of historical events. It is not a tenet of the faith.


16 posted on 02/04/2009 5:08:34 PM PST by sobieski
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To: utahson

One’s belief in a historical event is not required as part of the Catholic faith.


17 posted on 02/04/2009 5:09:54 PM PST by sobieski
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To: utahson
So in your thinking it is okay to keep those that are dishonest within the Church and are willing to lie about well documented history?

I do not think you understand the rules of excommunication. I suggest that you spend some time getting up to speed on the subject.

18 posted on 02/04/2009 5:11:59 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (PIE FIGHT!!!!!)
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To: utahson

So in your thinking the Pope has failed to lead?

And do you align yourself with the extremist liberal bishops who are calling for him to step down?


19 posted on 02/04/2009 5:16:04 PM PST by Lorica
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To: utahson

Are you really a Catholic? Because you don’t seem to know what has happened. The excommunication was lifted; this was also done for Orthodox bishops. That is a first step to start a dialogue which may or not end in the SSPX or the Orthodox returning home.

You must know that the Pope and the SSPX both repeated their statements condemning anti -semitism in all forms. Further, the SSPX has muzzled Williamson.

Here’s the facts: the excommunications are lifted, but the individuals remain suspended from their faculties under Roman Catholic law. To have suspension lifted will require much negotiation. Their organization, the SSPX is irregular under canon law.

So what, exactly, is there to be ashamed of?

But as a Catholic you already knew all this, no?


20 posted on 02/04/2009 5:16:25 PM PST by sobieski
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To: sobieski

Honesty should be a requirement of its representatives.


21 posted on 02/04/2009 5:16:36 PM PST by utahson
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To: utahson

Yes; you should be honest. Bp Williamson is not a church representative. He is a suspended bishop who will have to declaim much to have his suspension lifted.

You know this as a Catholic, right?


22 posted on 02/04/2009 5:19:01 PM PST by sobieski
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To: sobieski
Yes I am a Catholic. I attended Catholic service every Sunday growing up on Air Force installations and was an Alter boy. Were you?
23 posted on 02/04/2009 5:20:28 PM PST by utahson
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To: utahson

Why “its” representatives?

Why not “our” representatives?

As I say, careful with that dishonesty stick...


24 posted on 02/04/2009 5:20:30 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: utahson

Most altar boys know how to spell their job.

Why do you use the past tense in referring to your church attendance?

Care to take another bite at the dishonesty apple?


25 posted on 02/04/2009 5:21:32 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: utahson

Then your formation is lacking or you were not paying attention since this is simple and a long standing situation with the Orthodox.

Which was it?


26 posted on 02/04/2009 5:21:48 PM PST by sobieski
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To: utahson

As for your ‘catholic’ upbringing, it is not a Sunday ‘service’ Rather, it is Mass, Holy Eucharist, Sunday liturgy even.

Service, I believe, is a word used by protestants, though.


27 posted on 02/04/2009 5:25:05 PM PST by sobieski
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To: utahson
As a Catholic, I am thoroughly pleased with and proud of the way Pope Benedict and Bernard Fellay have handled this matter.

I would be disgusted with the utterly mendacious and distorted manner that MSM have handled it ... except that I expect the worst sort of perfidy from that noisome bunch.

I reserve my disgust for FReepers who drink the MSM Kool-Aid uncritically. They should know better.

28 posted on 02/04/2009 5:25:10 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Philo-Junius
You are right “our” representatives. As far as the dishonesty stick, you have not answered my question. Did the holocaust occur?
29 posted on 02/04/2009 5:25:26 PM PST by utahson
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To: ArrogantBustard

BXVI can not help it if unscrupulous like Angela Merkel, Card Kaspar, the MSM, the Israeli Rabbinate or the Weisenthal Center misrepresent this to bash the Church. He will just have to stay the course.


30 posted on 02/04/2009 5:26:47 PM PST by sobieski
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To: utahson

I believe it did. If I were proven wrong, though, I would not have been dishonest in my belief.

As a Catholic, you are no doubt familiar with the sin of detraction.


31 posted on 02/04/2009 5:26:52 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: utahson

Yes, the Nazis killed 15 million Slavs, Jews, Gypsies and handicapped as untermenschen.


32 posted on 02/04/2009 5:27:29 PM PST by sobieski
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To: sobieski

Good point; we should welcome utahson back home, though; he’s clearly been on the wrong side of the Tiber quite awhile.


33 posted on 02/04/2009 5:28:35 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Philo-Junius

In the words of JP the Great: Ut Unum Sint.


34 posted on 02/04/2009 5:29:32 PM PST by sobieski
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To: sobieski

Indeed. I’ll go slaughter the fatted calf—will you go get the robes?


35 posted on 02/04/2009 5:31:44 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Philo-Junius

Yes indeed, and I’ll bring the wine. The good stuff in new wineskins.


36 posted on 02/04/2009 5:32:37 PM PST by sobieski
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To: sobieski

Indeed ... when I review the list of folks who are verbally attacking God’s servant Benedict ... I notice that he’s making (as usual) all the right enemies.


37 posted on 02/04/2009 5:32:38 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I think you are right; Bp Fellay will not allow this moment to pass thanks to a - with all due respect - crank like Williamson to get in the way.


38 posted on 02/04/2009 5:34:01 PM PST by sobieski
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To: sobieski

In last fifteen years, I have not attended Mass regularly because of my personal feeling with the loss of a loved one. That being said, I am a Catholic and was raised one and still believe in the teachings of the Church. Both my parents were Eucharist Ministers, taught CCD and taught Sunday school teachers for about 12 years. When I do go to Mass, I do not take communion because I am not fulfilling the responsibilities I should to receive the body of Christ.


39 posted on 02/04/2009 5:36:13 PM PST by utahson
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To: DeepThought42

The four SSPX bishops have NOT been “rehabilitated” or “reinstated.”

They have had one particular juridical penalty lifted.

They are still suspended and irregular. I.e., they are still forbidden by Church law to celebrate any sacrament or exercise any office in the Church. They have not even been restored to full communion with the Catholic Church.

But the Pope is to be held responsible for everything they say?


40 posted on 02/04/2009 5:36:47 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: untenured

Williamson IS a bishop. But he is a suspended bishop.


41 posted on 02/04/2009 5:38:23 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: utahson

Fine, but my question was not where you are today but rather - were you poorly formed or were you not listening since you obviously can not figure out what has happened: the offices that these men have received have had a sanction removed. However, they remain personally suspended and most certainly have not been rehabilitated.

So what is the beef? They are suspended and have not been welcomed back into the fold What is there to be ashamed of? They will have to renounce much to be brought back to the fold.


42 posted on 02/04/2009 5:40:19 PM PST by sobieski
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To: utahson

Detraction of others is usually fueled by an outraged conscience of one’s own; when the guilt is purged, so is the indignation.


43 posted on 02/04/2009 5:41:53 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: utahson

While I do not agree with the statements this man said, he personally has a right to believe whatever he does that is not ex cathedra, just as we can choose to believe or not in Fatima, Lourdes, and any other matter that is not dogma of the church.

You may not like it, but the popes authority ends at declaring on faith and morals within and regarding the deposit of faith, not opinions. While he can excommunicate someone for opposing church teaching,(ie Pelosi, Kennedy supporting abortion) he cannot excommunicate or reprimand those who do not agree with things like apparitions, or other opinions that do not disagree with church dogma.

While the Holocaust was indeed horrible, and even one person being murdered at the hands of the Nazi’s was appalling, so too is the Holocaust of the innocents condoned by the same people who decry the Jewish Holocaust, yet here, they are not only silent, but in support of it through voting for people who will expand it in large numbers. FYI, this bishop has NOT been brought back into the fold as a bishop, but as a catholic man with no power in the church. He is not the leader of a flock anymore, just catholic. If there can be “catholics for choice, catholics for women priests, and catholics for gay marriage, surely there is room for a catholic who denies the Holocaust was 6 million, hmmm?


44 posted on 02/04/2009 6:05:36 PM PST by wombtotomb (since its "above his paygrade", why can't we err on the side of caution about when life begins?)
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To: Philo-Junius
Your post #43.

Detraction of others is usually fueled by an outraged conscience of one's own; when the guilt is purged, so is the indignation

I hope I read you right on this sentence. I have thought it through carefully.

I stand corrected but I relate it to the case of David Irving, a historian. Irving served ten months in an Austrian prison in 2006. Besides revising the figures of six million dead downward, he was accused of "glorifying the NAZI party. He was ill advised to visit Austria.

Irving was only seven years old, when the war ended. He was in England throughout the war. I believe that it was 30,000 Jews who were identified in Austria and sent out on railway trains. A large number perished.

Simply put, it was the Austrians who were responsible, not Irving or his country. We now know the British were the losers after all, in WW2. Losers in what that country is today.

45 posted on 02/04/2009 6:52:48 PM PST by Peter Libra
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To: utahson
In last fifteen years, I have not attended Mass regularly because of my personal feeling with the loss of a loved one. That being said, I am a Catholic and was raised one and still believe in the teachings of the Church. Both my parents were Eucharist Ministers, taught CCD and taught Sunday school teachers for about 12 years. When I do go to Mass, I do not take communion because I am not fulfilling the responsibilities I should to receive the body of Christ.

You know, even though I was pretty unimpressed with your original comment, I am glad that you are honorable enough to abstain from Communion while not in a state of grace, a concept too many Catholics fail to grasp. I'll remember you in my prayers, and hope you will look into this situation more carefully before you malign the Pope. The loudest Catholic voices against him are those who are the most liberal and the most radical and the most dangerous to the Faith. That should tell you all you need to know. They were waiting for a moment like this.

46 posted on 02/04/2009 6:53:19 PM PST by Lorica
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To: Peter Libra

???

I don’t have a dog in the legal fight over David Irving, although I do think it’s remarkable how few defenders of free thought were willing to stick to their principles in his defence.

Freedom for the right kinds of free thought, in the end. Maybe the ACLU could publish a list of authors it won’t defend—some sort of Index, maybe...


47 posted on 02/04/2009 6:57:49 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Philo-Junius
I was trying to say that it is the Austrians who have a guilty conscience. It is the Austrians who are able to expiate their guilt by imprisoning Irving. Of course, if they were not born at that time, they should not be guilty. Forces are at work to make them feel guilty. Those forces have succeeded. They are trying to hang the guilt of holocaust around the necks of the unborn at that time.

I liked your sentence.

48 posted on 02/04/2009 7:06:43 PM PST by Peter Libra
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To: Peter Libra

A fair point regarding the thoughtcrime laws of Austria and Germany; not that I was thinking of them at that moment.


49 posted on 02/04/2009 8:44:04 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Philo-Junius
On my post to you regarding David Irving. I should have read the preceding posts which brought you to the actual sentence quoted. Nothing to do with Irving of course.

My apologies in using it to illustrate thought crime, which exists in the very countries- Austria and Germany. Countries which brought us to the very fact of the holocaust.

50 posted on 02/05/2009 6:06:58 PM PST by Peter Libra
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