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Guns on campus
San Marcos Record ^ | 5 April, 2009 | Anita Miller

Posted on 04/07/2009 5:33:53 AM PDT by marktwain

Does New York massacre give new firepower to bills filed in Austin?

By Anita Miller News Editor

San Marcos — When police in Binghamton, N.Y. went looking for the gunman who killed 13 people before committing suicide on Friday, the Associated Press reported they led out “a number of men in plastic handcuffs” while they sorted out who was who.

Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

Tragic as it is, the New York case may serve to support the point some in local law enforcement have made regarding Sen. Jeff Wentworth’s (R-San Antonio) legislation that would allow those with concealed handgun licenses to carry their weapons on the campuses of Texas colleges and universities.

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

Chapa, like the rest of the university police force, has undergone “active shooter” training at the San Marcos-based Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (ALERRT).

“You go in and isolate the threat. If you go in and find someone with a gun and the call is for a man with a gun, that’s your approach,” he said.

“We don’t think more guns on campus necessarily makes a safer campus,” said Diana Hendricks, ALERRT’s director of communications and governmental relations.

Hendricks said ALERRT has “worked closely with university police departments around the country” and believes that proper training of campus police comes closer to ensuring the safety of students.

Wentworth’s bill has yet to reach the full Senate. Its language is very near that of similar legislation he filed in 2007.

Chapa said a position paper created back then by the Texas Association of College and University Police Administrators opposing allowing concealed weapons on campus is still valid today.

It states, “with regard to crimes against persons which could potentially justify the use of deadly force, such as the use of a firearm, individuals are generally safer on the campuses of institutions of higher learning in this State than they are in the communities in which the campuses are located. The majority of reported on campus crimes” at state colleges and universities, the paper continues, “have no violent component, rendering the issue of concealed carry of firearms on campus virtually meaningless in the prevention of campus crime.”

Chapa said the primary crime on the Texas State campus is theft, which raises the possibility that concealed weapons could be stolen. “If a student is going to store their gun in their book bag, we’re going to have an increase in theft of weapons.”

Wentworth’s bill, and companion legislation in the House of Representatives, “looks like it’s getting a lot of support,” Chapa said. “All we can do is kind of prepare for it. Our focus is not to deny the right of anyone to carry a weapon, he said, adding the mission of university police is “to provide for the safety and security of the communities we have sworn to protect.”

Wentworth’s’ bill is SB 1164.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: banglist; ccw; sccc; texas
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What a completely biased report.
1 posted on 04/07/2009 5:33:53 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

Yeah, and if my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

2 posted on 04/07/2009 5:35:20 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Puppage
“We don’t think more guns on campus necessarily makes a safer campus,” said Diana Hendricks

Ah, we don't think.

No facts...just feeeeeeeeeeelings.

3 posted on 04/07/2009 5:36:29 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: marktwain

wow. if it’s between some psycho with an AK and the cops, i’ll take my chances with dropping the psycho and convincing the cops i’m the good guy when the smoke has cleared.


4 posted on 04/07/2009 5:38:17 AM PDT by thefactor (yes, as a matter of fact, i DID only read the excerpt)
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To: marktwain
“Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.””

With the *average* response time for LEOs (especially campus cops), you could dispatch the perp and clean your weapon before they ever saw you.

5 posted on 04/07/2009 5:38:45 AM PDT by wolfcreek (There is no 2 party system only arrogant Pols and their handlers)
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To: marktwain; Joe Brower
Chapa, like the rest of the university police force, has undergone “active shooter” training at the San Marcos-based Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (ALERRT).

How did that work out at VPI, Binghamton etc? Cops wait outside until an hour until everybody is dead.

It's sure safer for the cops, but the disarmed dead victims? Not so good.


6 posted on 04/07/2009 5:38:57 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: wolfcreek

And knit a sweater and complete your term paper.


7 posted on 04/07/2009 5:39:47 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Puppage

As though today’s police would actually enter a building while there is shooting going on! No, they hunker behind their vehicles, dressed up in their nifty black SWAT costumes, waiting until they are sure the gunman is finished his killing spree and has killed himself. And then they wait an extra hour, ensuring there will be fewer survivors.

Anyone with a CCP could kill the shooter and conceal the gun a hundred times over before encountering an LEO, so the danger mentioned in this anti-gun article is a fiction.


8 posted on 04/07/2009 5:44:56 AM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: Travis McGee
Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

Someone with a weapon who knew how to use it could have saved at least some of the 13 who were murdered.

9 posted on 04/07/2009 5:45:04 AM PDT by iowamark (certified by Michael Steele as "ugly and incendiary")
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To: wolfcreek
With the *average* response time for LEOs (especially campus cops), you could dispatch the perp and clean your weapon before they ever saw you.

EXACTLY.

I like what Mark Steyn said about MOST (not all) of them being...

"the world's most heavily armed and lavished equipped yellow-tape installers"

10 posted on 04/07/2009 5:45:38 AM PDT by DocH (The WAR on our RIGHTS must NOT go unanswered - Keep your powder dry)
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To: marktwain

Look at the police response time on this deal. Had one of the deceased been armed, it would have been very different. Either way, the the police get there just in time to do the work of a historian. The difference is in the lives of the innocent.


11 posted on 04/07/2009 5:45:42 AM PDT by Damifino (The true measure of a man is found in what he would do if he knew no one would ever find out.)
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To: marktwain

All they need do is look back to the Pearl Mississisppi shooting a few years ago. Or, the Appalachian Law School incident.

Convenient how they never mention those.


12 posted on 04/07/2009 5:45:44 AM PDT by DakotaRed (Don't you wish you had supported a conservative when you had the chance?)
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To: marktwain
Chapa, like the rest of the university police force, has undergone “active shooter” training at the San Marcos-based Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (ALERRT).

Well Captain, you didn't learn a damn thing then.

If you had the same scenario played out on a campus, you have 13 dead individuals before you even arrive.

This incident only proves how vulnerable Americans are without the means to protect themselves.

13 posted on 04/07/2009 5:47:25 AM PDT by Jagdgewehr (One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard. One faithful harp shall praise thee.)
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To: marktwain
In other words, "thank goodness none of the victims were armed! If one was armed, he might have stopped the murderous rampage early, and there might have been a case of mistaken identity! This way, it's so much easier to tell the good guys from the bad guys. The good guys are the ones laying in pools of blood."

Liberal logic at its finest!

Mark

14 posted on 04/07/2009 5:48:28 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: Travis McGee; DocH; All

And for the extremely modest, never say a word.


15 posted on 04/07/2009 5:49:54 AM PDT by wolfcreek (There is no 2 party system only arrogant Pols and their handlers)
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To: marktwain
Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

Yet, our Troops, when accused of "shoot first, ask questions later" are brought up on murder charges and have their names bandied about the floor of Congress as "cold blooded killers."

16 posted on 04/07/2009 5:50:14 AM PDT by DakotaRed (Don't you wish you had supported a conservative when you had the chance?)
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To: marktwain

State police Captain Paul Chapa is incompetent and should be removed.

His statement that anyone who has a firearm out will be shot, no questions asked is a deadly threat.

That Captain should be treated the same way the he expects to treat others.

If I am ever defending a person or myself by using my firearm, I will keep his statement in mind if the police show up.


17 posted on 04/07/2009 6:02:51 AM PDT by 2ndClassCitizen (FUBO)
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To: marktwain
I think an armed citizen would have plenty of time to neutralize the shooter, unload, and put down his gun before the police decided it was safe enough for them to go in.

Given the "first responders" proven tendency to arrive fashionably, and uselessly late, I'd take my chances.

18 posted on 04/07/2009 6:08:46 AM PDT by Washi
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To: 2ndClassCitizen

And indeed you should! Trust me, don’t trust the instincts of any police officers arriving to the scene. Most are young and very inexperienced. Some of those get very rattled or even downright frightened in these kind of incidents. Take my word for it as a LEO.


19 posted on 04/07/2009 6:10:23 AM PDT by Jagdgewehr (One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard. One faithful harp shall praise thee.)
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To: marktwain
Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

Since the police took an hour to enter the building the person or persons with conceal carry permits would have done what they could to protect others and then place a cell phone call to police.

Those with the permits would have made their presence felt within the first few seconds or minutes. Then 1 hour or 3 hours later police enter the building.

The person with concealed carry does what they can during the Columbine Delay.

20 posted on 04/07/2009 6:11:23 AM PDT by TYVets
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To: marktwain

I think the RISK of being shot by ignorant cops is preferavble to the CERTAINTY of dying at the hands of a cunning killer.


21 posted on 04/07/2009 6:14:44 AM PDT by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: marktwain
Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

Go ahead, you cheap political hack (aren't all the police leadership in every city and state hacks any more?), shoot first and ask questions later. And then pray that I'm not on the jury for the cops who didn't even bother to announce and demand the shooter stand down.

Not to bash the police here, but to make one more point about the Chief's comment above - generally, based on what we've seen in the last couple of mass shootings, the cops get there, stand around, wait until the shooting is over, and then chalk line the bodies. They don't have to draw their guns and show bragadocio about shooting first and asking questions later - they never even confront the shooters.

I'm not impressed with this nitwit's cheap display of "courage". Courage is the officers who make an middle of the night stop on a carload of people who are weaving and have a tail light out. That's police courage, to me.

22 posted on 04/07/2009 6:17:15 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (The Fairness Doctrine isn't about "Fairness" - it's about Doctrine.)
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To: marktwain

First, the politicians disarm us through artfully crafted rules and regulations that they claim are necessary to keep guns out of the hands of criminals;

Second, after establishing gun free zones, they craft additional rules and regulations that limit the police from taking immediate action against crazed murderers who always manage to get guns and use them to pen up and murder larger numbers of legislatively disarmed victims.

Third, the politicians then use the emotion generated by these massacres to craft additional legislation to further disarm us.

This cycle has to be stopped somewhere.


23 posted on 04/07/2009 6:24:29 AM PDT by Postman
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To: Hardastarboard

Very well stated....I couldn;t agree more.


24 posted on 04/07/2009 6:26:14 AM PDT by Postman
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To: Hardastarboard
Not to bash the police here...

You weren't. You were bashing police chiefs, something which should be done loud, long and often.

25 posted on 04/07/2009 6:31:19 AM PDT by magslinger (I talk to myself but sometimes I like a third opinion.)
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To: Postman
This cycle has to be stopped somewhere.

There is a question I have never seen answered in the media.

Virginia Tech, did any of the 32 victims attempt to stop the killer before they died or did they just lay down like sheep to slaughtered?

True they were unarmed, but....

26 posted on 04/07/2009 6:31:28 AM PDT by TYVets
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To: iowamark

Also, what happened in Binghamton was not a traditional campus, per se. It was at a smaller center with a classroom, hence no campus police would be dispatched to respond. That’s why they had to depend on the response of the local police, and unfortunately many more were killed in the interim. I wholeheartedly believe that if a CCW holder, an armed security guard, or a detailed LEO were there, there’d be less than 13 dead. As far as a CCW holder is concerned, they could have just holstered their pistol after the melee, then waited, and answered questions later. It just further proves that when perps know the area is unarmed, it compels them to attack the unarmed occupants. To disagree, truly displays one’s ignorance towards this subject.


27 posted on 04/07/2009 6:32:00 AM PDT by Seamus Mc Gillicuddy (Great minds discuss ideas, medium minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.)
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To: marktwain

Chapa is an idiot. Our Office’s team would respond immediately, and if there was an active shooter, their goal is to take him/her alive, rather than shoot first and ask questions later.

Be that as it may, if there were a person with a firearm, I am sure there would not have been so many victims. I am grateful my Sheriff knows and understands that.


28 posted on 04/07/2009 6:33:10 AM PDT by Glennb51
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To: marktwain
This is dumb

"Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake."

How long did it take them to identify the victims?
IOW, when the police was outside sipping coffee, they had no clue as to who was inside let alone who could have had a concealed gun license.

People were huddled in the boiler room. If a shooter was in there with them, wouldn't they all be dead also?

Hmm -"ethnically resembled the shooter" - interesting. So anyone not white looking or appearing well to do would be a police target?
guess what! Obama welcomes 'peace loving' muslims here, so the police better start rethinking their stereotyping. Make knives illegal. I heard that many loose their heads with them (Buffalo ? NY).

Any citizen who wants to carry a gun, should have that right.

29 posted on 04/07/2009 6:45:43 AM PDT by 1_Rain_Drop
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To: 1_Rain_Drop

meant to say “not appearing well to do”


30 posted on 04/07/2009 6:49:00 AM PDT by 1_Rain_Drop
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To: 2ndClassCitizen

with that cops logic, the police should be shot if their is a weapon drawn.. just becuase you are wearing the police uniform, dont mean your a good guy. there are bad cops, and there are bad guys that could dress like cops.

so let that ploice chief know, if any one dressed like a cop approaches me with a gun drawn, I should shoot him on sight, no question asked.

so now the safety of the officier trumps protecting the public, the public that has a Right to be armed, and a Right to self defence.

what a chicken s$&t cop. how about you cops risking your life for the public. I thought that is why we pay them so much and give them super pensions, cuase they are supposed to rick their life for the public. just like the military. what a chicken no good for nothing police chief. to oder to shot to kill anyone with a gun is premeditated murder. the police chief I hope has opened his chicken department up for a big lawsiut.

cops are now the thought police (hate crime laws) defenders of murder (they arrest pro-lifers) they break the 2 nd admendment (enforcing un-Constitutional laws). now they say you will be shot if you pull a gun to defend yourself.
what good are cops anyway??? Oh yeah, to investigate, thats all. pay them minimum wage, cause thats all they are worth. let real lawenforcement start with each citizen.


31 posted on 04/07/2009 6:50:14 AM PDT by dhm914
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To: marktwain
presstitutes spreading their legs for gun control again

yep no bias here

32 posted on 04/07/2009 6:52:09 AM PDT by Charlespg
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To: 2ndClassCitizen
If this cop or any other cop kills a licensed and trained armed citizen... they are guilty of murder if unprovoked. This guy will be someone's jail bitch one day... bank on it.

LLS

33 posted on 04/07/2009 6:52:19 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (hussein will NEVER be my President... NEVER!!!)
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To: TYVets
...did any of the 32 victims attempt to stop the killer...

Liviu Librescu.

34 posted on 04/07/2009 6:57:06 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: marktwain
Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

This man should be removed from duty.

35 posted on 04/07/2009 7:00:01 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: marktwain
Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

This guy is a real piece of work. A true shoot first and ask questions latter kinda guy. Sickening if you aren't required to assess a situation before pulling the trigger.

Other thoughts: Removed by moderator

36 posted on 04/07/2009 7:21:57 AM PDT by beltfed308 (Heller: The defining moment of our Republic)
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To: marktwain
Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

I will clarify that this is not a Dept. of Public Safety officer (who are the "state police"). This is a captain in the police force at Texas State University.

I'm in the process of composing a letter to the organization now, advising them of the legal peril they just created for themselves, and suggest that Capt. Chapa be relieved from duty pending an investigation.

37 posted on 04/07/2009 7:23:25 AM PDT by justlurking (The only remedy for a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..


38 posted on 04/07/2009 7:35:53 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: marktwain
“You go in and isolate the threat. If you go in and find someone with a gun and the call is for a man with a gun, that’s your approach,”

If the people there were allowed to be armed, the police would not shoot the one with the gun, because the attack wouldn't have happened in the first place.

One thing common about all these massacres is that they occur only where the attackers know their victims cannot shoot back. They do not occur where people are allowed the means to defend themselves. The state of Utah, for instance, allows people with a concealed weapons permit to bring a gun onto school grounds, and Utah has never had a school shooting of any kind.

39 posted on 04/07/2009 7:45:30 AM PDT by raisetheroof ("To become Red is to become dead --- gradually." Alexander Solzhenitsyn)
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To: marktwain
Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

From reports I've read, the CCW holder would have had 45 minutes to drop the perp, reholster his weapon and report an 'all clear' to the SWAT team cowering outside.

40 posted on 04/07/2009 7:51:12 AM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution - 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: wolfcreek
With the *average* response time for LEOs (especially campus cops), you could dispatch the perp and clean your weapon before they ever saw you.

All you'd really have to do is to put the gun away & wait for them to show up. As long as you're not holding a weapon, they wouldn't shoot you, would they?
41 posted on 04/07/2009 7:53:41 AM PDT by HotLead61 (Death as a Free Man is much preferred to "life" as a slave)
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To: TYVets

I don’t recall seeing or hearing anything in the media about any resistance by the victims. I did see reports that some tried to get away but the doors were locked as in Virginia or barred by the perp’s car as in Binghamton.

Heroes like Todd Beamer (of United Flight 93 on 9/11) are rare and many people don’t want to accept the near certainty of death that happens when a heavily armed thug is attacked with a chair. I think that most people, to maintain sanity, have to fog reality and maintain a hope that they’ll come out of a very bad situation alive. In essence, the last ones that might be eaten by the alligator.

The poiticians who would entertain and vote for the illogical, deadly nonsense that supports gun free zones and prevents good, honest citizens from arming themselves at home and anywhere else, need to be targeted and voted out of any office they hold or aspire to.


42 posted on 04/07/2009 10:20:32 AM PDT by Postman
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To: DuncanWaring

I’d forgotten.....Thank you for remembering and for posting the link about this extremely brave man who was willing to die to save others.


43 posted on 04/07/2009 10:26:38 AM PDT by Postman
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To: Postman

Thank you.


44 posted on 04/07/2009 10:30:57 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (The Fairness Doctrine isn't about "Fairness" - it's about Doctrine.)
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To: Joe Brower

Excellent observation and cartoon!


45 posted on 04/07/2009 11:12:54 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: HotLead61

I wouldn’t be *holding* my gun in the aftermath of a shooting. They might very well take you for the shooter.

Not sure I would say anything to anybody if I had taken down the perp and there were no witnesses. Too many legal formalities.


46 posted on 04/07/2009 11:41:59 AM PDT by wolfcreek (There is no 2 party system only arrogant Pols and their handlers)
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To: wolfcreek

I never said I’d hold it, either. I said I’d put it away, meaning out of sight.


47 posted on 04/07/2009 1:23:51 PM PDT by HotLead61 (Death as a Free Man is much preferred to "life" as a slave)
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To: marktwain; Travis McGee; wolfcreek; Eaker; Squantos; El Gato; neverdem; thackney; TheMom; ...

So the perception that the training received to be an ALERRT Law Enforcement officer in this state is to shoot first and ask questions later, that that training is preferrable to a civilian who is licenced (or not) to carry a firearm for lawful self-defensive purposes defending themselves...

Thus our right to keep and bear arms is a death sentence if a Law Enforcement officer observes us doing so??? Or just at the sight of someone not in uniform with a gun in their hand???

You know...Things used to be a lot clearer in situations like this...

Good thing this article is good for one thing...Bird cage liner...


48 posted on 04/07/2009 1:33:47 PM PDT by stevie_d_64
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To: marktwain

http://www.alerrt.com/


49 posted on 04/07/2009 1:38:34 PM PDT by stevie_d_64
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To: stevie_d_64; marktwain; Travis McGee; wolfcreek; Eaker; Squantos; El Gato; neverdem; thackney; ...

I thought post these *progressive* responses from the Austin American Statesman. Show the extreme fair and balanced approach the paper exibits.

Notice the guy’s name in the last letter. LOL!


Guns on campus

Last week I sat through an hours-long Public Safety Committee meeting concerning legislation that would allow guns on college campuses in Texas.

I learned that pretty much all public and private institutions oppose this legislation. I learned that more than 90 percent of violent crime against students happens off campus. I learned that our elite military academies, West Point and the Air Force Academy, do not allow anyone to possess firearms on their campuses. I leaned that this same legislation was defeated everywhere it was introduced in 2007 and 2008. It had not passed in any states this year. Oklahoma and Virginia have defeated it twice in two years.

This legislation is trying to solve a problem that does not exist. One can only hope that the Public Safety Committee listened and will say no to the gun lobby on this legislation.

Guns on college campuses is a dangerous idea.

Marsha McCartney

North Texas Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Dallas


Re: March 20 article “Bills would allow guns at college.”

I disagree with lifting the ban on handguns. To do so is unnecessary and would not be in the best interest of university student bodies. Research has shown that to do so would have little to no effect on crime deterrence.

If allowed to carry handguns on the premises of academic institutions, it is highly likely that license holders would interfere with respondents in the uncommon event of a violence issue involving guns.

College campuses have a unique environment with high stress levels and problems with drug and alcohol abuse. These differences could potentially lead a normally sane person to commit a heinous crime if allowed to carry a concealed handgun. Lifting the ban would introduce unnecessary danger and fear among college students.

Lauren Williams

San Marcos


We surely do not need anyone waving a pistol around in a bar, and we also don’t need immature, reckless students carrying a weapon into classrooms at our schools. Nor do we need legislators and lobbyists promoting manufacture and sales of any kind of weapons.

It appears that we have a few lawmakers being spurred on by lobbyists to enhance gun makers’ interests.

Reliable reports reveal that more than 300,000 Texan concealed-gun permits were active last year, which means that at least that many handguns were made and sold. Let those who violate existing laws suffer the consequences

Remington Webster

Austin


50 posted on 04/07/2009 1:45:44 PM PDT by wolfcreek (There is no 2 party system only arrogant Pols and their handlers)
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