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Interview: Joe Frazier still simmering over Ali (quotes discuss religion, too)
AP ^ | April 10, 2009 | DAVE SKRETTA

Posted on 04/10/2009 2:14:40 PM PDT by ConservativeStatement

NEW YORK — Muhammad Ali described his third and final fight with Joe Frazier as "death, closest thing to dyin' that I know of."

Frazier recalls their brutal matchup outside Manila as something much less grandiose.

"We just did our job," he said.

The two great heavyweights always have been the ying and yang of boxing. Why should things change nearly 35 years later?

(Excerpt) Read more at delcotimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: ali; boxing; frazier; religion; thethrillainmanila
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1 posted on 04/10/2009 2:14:40 PM PDT by ConservativeStatement
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

Cassius sure could box


2 posted on 04/10/2009 2:18:33 PM PDT by advertising guy (the University of IKEA , educating our kids for 20 years , majoring in couch and remote)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

What does Frazier think that Obama is going to do for boxing?
Is he an idiot who has bought into the Obama is going to fix everything hype?


3 posted on 04/10/2009 2:18:58 PM PDT by Islaminaction
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

What a sad story.


4 posted on 04/10/2009 2:21:09 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

“The Thrilla in Manila” (their third fight) was probably the best heavyweight championship fight in history. But their first encounter (in ‘71) was almost as thrilling, and the build-up and drama surrounding the event was a lot higher. I was young, but I remember the entire country taking sides. ...and it got pretty serious. I was in the Frazier camp.


5 posted on 04/10/2009 2:21:14 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

Dodging punches
6 posted on 04/10/2009 2:21:16 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

That’s amazing.


7 posted on 04/10/2009 2:22:12 PM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

I never liked cassius clay, still dont but when he pulled out the little plastic monkey and started punching it saying “this is what Im going to do to the gorilla in Manila I laughed till I cried.


8 posted on 04/10/2009 2:23:57 PM PDT by Snurple (VEGETARIAN, OLD INDIAN WORD FOR BAD HUNTER.)
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To: LibWhacker

They say that was Ali’s strength, right there: getting in close and not getting smashed.


9 posted on 04/10/2009 2:26:20 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand ("...made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate...")
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To: Snurple
I never liked cassius clay, still dont but when he pulled out the little plastic monkey and started punching it saying “this is what Im going to do to the gorilla in Manila I laughed till I cried.

I wonder if Ali could say that today without being called a racist.

10 posted on 04/10/2009 2:26:57 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand ("...made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate...")
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

btt


11 posted on 04/10/2009 2:27:10 PM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: advertising guy
I watched a special on Smokin Joe. He was bitter toward Ali because when Ali was stripped of his title Frazier supplied Ali money, helped pay court costs and let Ali use his gym to stay in shape. As soon as Ali was reinstated he started calling Frazier the white man's champ and other names. Frazier’s son said it may have been hype to Ali but when your family receives death threats it isn't funny. Ali said if Frazier beat him he would crawl over on his knees and say he was the greatest. When Frazier whooped Ali Frazier said Ali didn't say nothing!
12 posted on 04/10/2009 2:28:35 PM PDT by carcraft (Pray for our Country)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan
I was too young back in '71, but I'm sure I would have been in the Frazier camp.

I still remember when Letterman used to do this bit where, during his show, he would call up Joe Frazier and ask him how much gas he had in his car. Usually Joe would say something like, "Oh, around a quarter of a tank Dave." I don't know why but at the time I thought that was the funniest thing around.

Frazier is old school Philly and I wish him the best.
13 posted on 04/10/2009 2:29:51 PM PDT by fleagle ( An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. -Winston Churchill)
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To: the invisib1e hand

He was super quick and had the amazing ability to keep his eyes open and on the incoming punches so that he could react and dodge. But being a great boxer doesn’t make one a great person.


14 posted on 04/10/2009 2:31:13 PM PDT by downtownconservative (As Obama lies, liberty dies!)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan
"Let's see if we can get this back to where it needs to be."

You can't go home, Mr. Frazier. You probably know that.

15 posted on 04/10/2009 2:31:48 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand ("...made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate...")
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To: the invisib1e hand
never liked cassius clay, still dont but when he pulled out the little plastic monkey and started punching it saying “this is what Im going to do to the gorilla in Manila I laughed till I cried.

I wonder if Ali could say that today without being called a racist.


Ali was called a racist back in 1975 when he did it. I remember Sports Illustrated coming out and condemning Ali at the time for the gorilla stunt.

Ali wasn't serious when he put down Frazier before their fights. Ali admitted years later that it was just a stunt to sell tickets. Joe didn't care, he took Ali's words to heart.
16 posted on 04/10/2009 2:35:38 PM PDT by Ticonderoga34 (A Community Organizer is the 21st century version of a Ward Heeler.)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan
I liked Frazier, but Foreman was my favorite all time boxer. Never was an Ali fan. Larry Holmes never got the credit he deserved. He was a great boxer, but wasn't as exciting to watch.

Ultimate fighting draws a lot bigger crowd than boxing, now. The last few times I've watched ultimate fighting, the place was packed and the crowd was rabid. The last few times I've seen boxing, the place was half empty and people were walking in and out during the matches.

17 posted on 04/10/2009 2:37:09 PM PDT by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: zert_28

So, Frazier’s “blacker” than Ali? How freaked out is that?


18 posted on 04/10/2009 2:37:21 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand ("...made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate...")
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To: zert_28

Joe shut him up for awhile if memory serve me. He broke Clays jaw (they wired it shut) and had him eating pudding for about a month.


19 posted on 04/10/2009 2:38:09 PM PDT by Snurple (VEGETARIAN, OLD INDIAN WORD FOR BAD HUNTER.)
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To: carcraft

I always despised that draft-dodging, Elijah Muhammed-invoking, Nation of Islam racist POS Ali. The incidents you relayed are a perfect window into Ali’s (lack of) character.


20 posted on 04/10/2009 2:40:23 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Snurple
Joe shut him up for awhile if memory serve me. He broke Clays jaw (they wired it shut) and had him eating pudding for about a month.

I don't want to be anal but that was Ken Norton who broke Clay's jaw. But Frazier beat the crap out of Clay at their first and third fight. Clay was never the same fighter after the Manila fight.

Another interesting fact is that Clay was suppose to be the champion of the black race while Frazier was suppose to be "the Uncle Tom" yet Clay had white men in his corner, like Angelo Dundee while Frazier had black men in his corner.
21 posted on 04/10/2009 2:50:40 PM PDT by Ticonderoga34 (A Community Organizer is the 21st century version of a Ward Heeler.)
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To: Snurple

...c’mon gorilla, we in manila”


22 posted on 04/10/2009 2:51:14 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: bobby.223

Was that the actual quote ?


23 posted on 04/10/2009 3:03:43 PM PDT by Snurple (VEGETARIAN, OLD INDIAN WORD FOR BAD HUNTER.)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan
"...ying and yang..."

Note to AP: Please, please, please - see if you can find someone, anyone, who has some college edumacation!

24 posted on 04/10/2009 3:07:47 PM PDT by frankenMonkey (www.citizendirect.org)
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To: Mr. Mojo

Ali’s skill in the ring wasn’t enough to make up for his shortcomings as an American and a human being.


25 posted on 04/10/2009 3:11:35 PM PDT by skeeter
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To: Snurple

***Joe shut him up for awhile if memory serve me. He broke Clays jaw (they wired it shut) and had him eating pudding for about a month.****

Isn’t that the punch that also permanently scrambled Ali’s brains?


26 posted on 04/10/2009 3:28:23 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

I used to like how Ali gave other boxers nicknames based on the shape of their head.....he called Larry Holmes “the peanut” and he called Ernie Shavers “the Acorn”......


27 posted on 04/10/2009 3:37:29 PM PDT by sfvgto (Dear Congress, my name is Jimmie....gimmie, gimmie, gimmie)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan
Now, boxing has become a niche sport followed mostly by the devoted.

I saw a Tyson fight many years ago in Vegas. All the fights that night were so obviously fixed that I have never watched one since.

28 posted on 04/10/2009 3:47:44 PM PDT by mjp (Live & let live. I don't want to live in Mexico, Marxico, or Muslimico. Statism & high taxes suck)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

I remember seeing a TV clip when Ali had just finished a fight he won. Immediately Howard Cosell jumped into the ring with microphone and a panting Ali. Cosell called Joe Frazier on the phone, said a few words to stir the pot and then gave the phone to Ali who said, “ Ah Joe, it’s just Howard agitatin’ again”.


29 posted on 04/10/2009 3:47:53 PM PDT by tflabo (Truth or Tyranny)
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To: Snurple

That was Ken Norton that broke Ali’s jaw. Ali had some trouble with fighters with good speed who were good in close (Frazier, Norton, Bonavena) and deny him punching room. But Foreman was a big strong counter puncher and ate fighters like that alive (He Ko’d Frazier and Norton in 2 and Frazier again in 5.

But Foreman was easy for Clay. He was way too slow to stay with him and always had poor endurance.


30 posted on 04/10/2009 3:52:16 PM PDT by haroldeveryman
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan

I’ve always believed Joe won all three bouts.


31 posted on 04/10/2009 3:56:44 PM PDT by Terry Mross (I Hate All Politicians, Republicans Included.)
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To: haroldeveryman

I like Norton a lot more than Ali. I also think Ron Lyle beat Ali. He knocked Ali down a few times then they stopped the fight and gave it to Ali.


32 posted on 04/10/2009 4:00:36 PM PDT by Terry Mross (I Hate All Politicians, Republicans Included.)
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan
Muhammad Ali was one of the best heavyweights of all time but he's also the most overrated athlete of all time.

Boxing will never be as popular as it once was because all the big fights are on pay-per-view and pay channels. If they still had the biggest fights for free on network TV it would be much more popular than it is now. They also need to stop charging $50-$60 for each pay-per-view card. I watch all boxing and MMA pay-per-views for free with Sopcast.

33 posted on 04/10/2009 5:03:37 PM PDT by ThermoNuclearWarrior (Obama is a fraud and is ineligible for the Presidency!)
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To: Terry Mross

How could Frazier have he won the third fight when Eddie Futch stopped the fight between the 14th. and 15th. round?


34 posted on 04/10/2009 5:15:01 PM PDT by ThermoNuclearWarrior (Obama is a fraud and is ineligible for the Presidency!)
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To: Terry Mross
I’ve always believed Joe won all three bouts.

The outcome of the third fight isn't a matter of belief or opinion -- Frazier quit on his stool after the 14th round from exhaustion, and Ali was battering him at will at the time of the stoppage. As I mentioned earlier, probably the best heavyweight championship fight ever.

The second fight was a very boring affair with Ali winning easily on points -- no controversy. Frazier had a particularly bad outing -- he just wasn't on his game.

Frazier beat Ali only in the first fight, and that was a very close contest.

I was rooting like crazy for Frazier to knock Ali's head off in all three contests, but alas it just wasn't to be. The best moments Frazier had against Ali were the famous knockdown (left hook) in the 15th round of the first fight and the middle round (7th through 12th) pounding he administered the third fight.

35 posted on 04/10/2009 5:20:25 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: MassRepublicanFlyersFan
Ali's racism is not solely dependent on what he did with that plastic monkey. He joined the Nation of Islam, a church which taught blacks were the original human race and whites were "devils" created by this scientist guy through selective breeding (no, seriously. The closest thing we have today to the then Nation of Islam, which has since softened its doctrines, is the Louis Farrakhan version of Islam, mother ship and all. Ali was also a member of the NOI's own security force, the Fruits of Islam (curious choice of name, that).

Ali is a racist, pure and simple, but the old Liberal double standard, as always, rules. Only whites are guilty of racism.

36 posted on 04/10/2009 5:25:04 PM PDT by Robwin
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To: Mr. Mojo; Terry Mross; ThermoNuclearWarrior
Frazier quit on his stool after the 14th round from exhaustion

I shouldn't have said he quit, but he was a clearly beaten man. All the snap to his punches was gone, and his defense was non-existent. His trainer Eddie Futch did the right thing.

What's interesting is that while this was going on in Frazier's corner, Ali was pleading with his own trainer (Angelo Dundee) to stop the fight because he was exhausted. Dundee refused, and Ali then told him that he would refuse to come out of his corner for the 15th if Dundee didn't stop it. But Frazier's corner quit first, and Ali was therefore declared the winner. An incredible episode.

If it went to the scorecards after 14 rounds, I'd probably have scored the fight even.

37 posted on 04/10/2009 5:49:54 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Snurple

those exact words were just part of a long ali ramble before the fight. the ‘real’ fight was said to have been between belinda ali and the champ before the HCF as she caught ali with his on the side babe,(soon to be his 3rd wife)veronica. belinda showed up, let ali have it, then jumped right back on a jet to return to America.


38 posted on 04/10/2009 7:06:06 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: Terry Mross

I don’t remember lyle knocking ali down in their fight once, let alone twice. are we thinking of the same fight? I do not believe ali was ever knocked down twice in any of his fights and I think it happened only 4 or 5 times total in his career.


39 posted on 04/10/2009 7:13:32 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: ThermoNuclearWarrior

See above. Ali was whipped. Frazier quit first. If he hadn’t, Ali would have.


40 posted on 04/12/2009 6:34:29 PM PDT by Terry Mross (I Hate All Politicians, Republicans Included.)
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To: Terry Mross
Yeah but Frazier did quit first so you can't say you think he won the fight. You can say you think he had been winning the fight until it was stopped, but once it's stopped it doesn't matter what happened before.
41 posted on 04/13/2009 2:54:56 PM PDT by ThermoNuclearWarrior (Obama is a fraud and is ineligible for the Presidency!)
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To: ThermoNuclearWarrior

“Muhammad Ali was one of the best heavyweights of all time but he’s also the most overrated athlete of all time.”

So true. He had an outsized personality, but when you look close enough, he wasn’t as dominant as they’d have you believe. He clearly lost to Frazier in ‘71. He came within seconds of losing in Manilla, when he asked for his gloves to be cut off. Luckily, Frazier’s corner called the fight first. When you watch the footage, Ali literally collapses after the forfeit is announced. And you can’t fake that sort of thing. It was real.

Not that Ali didn’t win. Damn close, that’s all I’m saying. Same thing with the “Rumble in the Jungle”. No other fight bolsters his legendary status like this one, but it was based on fortuitous timing, in my opinion. He unloaded on Foreman at just the right time, then Foreman screwed up the count. That’s big George’s fault, I realize. I’m not gonna say it was a fast count or anything. But it is obvious from the footage that Foreman was biding his time on the mat, and that he got at the most a milisecond after the ref says “nine.”

People say George never would have recovered. We’ll never know. Also, there was never a rematch. What if Frazier had never given Ali a rematch?

The point is Ali bested Frazier and Foreman by the narrowest of margins.

Not that he wasn’t the greatest boxer of all time. He could very well be, but it’s impossible to tell. It all depends on who’s fighting at what time, and how fighters match up. Rocky Marciano never lost, which is something Ali can’t say. Then again Marciano’s opponents weren’t as good as Frazier and Foreman. Then again again, it can be argued that Frazier at least, and possibly Foreman, were as good as Ali.


42 posted on 04/17/2009 1:39:50 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: bobby.223

“I do not believe ali was ever knocked down twice in any of his fights”

yes he was, by Joe Frazier, Madison Square Garden, 1971.

One of the announcers claims he slipped, but he slipped right after Joe punched him hard, and I have a hard time believing in such coincidences.


43 posted on 04/17/2009 1:43:46 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane

which round did the second knockdown happen in ‘THE FIGHT’? none of my boxing history books, 1971 ‘sport magazines, 1971 ‘sports illustrated’ magazines mention a second knockdown that was put into the books as a recorded knockdown. if it was just your opinion that there was another knockdown that’s cool but I do not believe there was another recorded knockdown. I just watched the entire fight again (from the internet) last night and only one knockdown was recorded that I saw anyway. I might be in error, let me know if you find out something different. bobby


44 posted on 04/17/2009 1:04:52 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: bobby.223

Everyone knows Frazier put Ali on his back in the 15th round. It was also my understanding that Ali went down in the 11th. I reviewed the footage, and to be sure, he left his feet.

Not sure whether or not this was registered as an “official” knockdown. I’m not any kind of boxing expert. Never fought myself, and only tune in to see the really big matches. Obviously, if a fighter slips or is tripped up, it shouldn’t count. After scanning the internet, I see the 11th round incident is usually referred to as a “slip” or a “stagger”.

Again, I don’t mean to beat up on Ali (Frazier did plenty enough of that for both of us). All I’m saying is when you look at the fights that made him a legend, he comes off as all too human. The Liston fight was one of the most bizzare sports events of the century, the Foreman fight was less brilliant strategy than shrewd trick and lucky timing, and Frazier lost by the thinnest of possible margins in Manilla.


45 posted on 04/17/2009 2:47:13 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane

I just viewed the 11th round again and from the footage I watched I did not see Ali leave his feet at any point or way. he did get staggered but nothing severe enough that meets any of the 4 criteria of what is required for the in ring ref to rule a knockdown as it happens (or the 2 ringside judges to add a knockdown determination to the official fight statistics after reviewing the fight later like they have been known to do, rare but it has happened)in a heavyweight professional title fight. Clay/Ali goes into the final books being officially being knocked down once in Ali/Frazier 1 and 3 other times in his pro career. Ali/Frazier 1, ‘the fight of the century’ lived up to the hype and things damn near stopped the evening of the fight. no TV, no radio (other than a ‘round summary’ following each round, how I got it) or by a theater, closed circuit transmission. long time ago huh? good to talk boxing with someone again, I have followed it extremely close since I was kid but I haven’t found very many boxing fans left lately, the younger ones seem to have gone for the mixed martial arts styles and I guess there are not enough older ones left period!


46 posted on 04/17/2009 5:07:58 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: bobby.223

“I just viewed the 11th round again and from the footage I watched I did not see Ali leave his feet at any point or way.”

If you get HBO, watch the “Thrilla In Manilla” documentary. They show Frazier watching the slip/knockdown, which comes very early in the 11th round. I don’t know at what time, but both Joe and I definitely see Ali go down. He didn’t kiss the canvass, but he was at least on one of his knees.

If it wasn’t official, that’s fine. But the “slip” curiously comes right after Frazier hits him, so I’ve always thought of it as knockdown.

“good to talk boxing with someone again, I have followed it extremely close since I was kid but I haven’t found very many boxing fans left lately, the younger ones seem to have gone for the mixed martial arts styles and I guess there are not enough older ones left period!”

I am relatively young, a teenager during the Lewis/Holyfield/Tyson era. It’s true, mixed martial arts has conquered the world. I think it has less to do with the superiority of that sport (the rules are less stifling, but how fun is it, really, to watch people grapple on the ground?) than the complete lack of popular heavyweights. Vitali Klitschko is no Ali.


47 posted on 04/17/2009 5:51:06 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane

I will find that HBO show, sounds like it has some footage that might not have been shown on that first NBC replay of the fight, and I have might not have seen it. IIRC the ‘71 fight has only been shown on TV in it’s entirety just a few times. (I myself have never seen it on TV once since that first showing, but youtube has had it up forever). I never see it on any of the boxing specials on various channels and have you noticed on the Ali retro looks at his career they show every fight BUT Ali/Frazier 1? I just started watching the mixed fighting and is def. interesting and different, those men are in incredible shape. from 1972 thru 1988 I went to every closed circuit (showing if it was not on TV) of every big time fight, any weight class or division but there was nothing like the last couple of days leading up to an Ali title fight. whether a guy disliked him or liked him, it was really something, all the fancy dressers, pimp like characters running around, fancy cars around the theaters. etc. at one time I had a heck of a bunch of his old ‘fight programs’ ya could buy at the theater fight night but they are all gone or lost now. the only thing I have left, memorabilia wise, other than boxing books is a ticket stub from the Ali/Foreman’s ‘rumble in the jungle’ fight. saw the black and white theater closed circuit broadcast of that fight live at the Paramount theater, Seattle Washington. that was my favorite fight of the entire bunch.


48 posted on 04/17/2009 7:07:15 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: bobby.223

“...and have you noticed on the Ali retro looks at his career they show every fight BUT Ali/Frazier 1?”

As far as I remember, the Will Smith movie “Ali” skipped over the Frazier fights altogether. It showed Frazier and Ali all buddy-buddy during Ali’s hiatus, when Frazier helped him get his license back, but then they jumped ahead to Foreman. How this big-budgeted, highly honored supposed bio-pic could skip over arguably the most important fight of the 20th century is beyond me (monstrous gate, two undefeated champions, Ali’s first loss, highlight of Frazier’s career, etc).


49 posted on 04/17/2009 7:20:38 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane

How many of his prime fighting years did Ali lose during his forced retirement? Was he ever as good after he came back as he was before he left? Who of all the great heavyweights do you think could have beat Ali in his prime?


50 posted on 04/17/2009 7:25:08 PM PDT by csmusaret (http://www.aipnews.com/)
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