Posted on 05/05/2009 9:02:07 AM PDT by Bokababe
Washington Post reporter Tim Craig relays that the D.C. Council has voted 13-0, without debate, to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states. Watch D.C. Wire for updates.
(Excerpt) Read more at voices.washingtonpost.com ...
There’s nothing stopping churches from performing “gay marriage” now!! And those marriages would be just as possible if they get a piece of paper from the gubberment or not, which is to say not possible at all. It’s only gubberment involvement that’s forcing normal folks to accept this unreality on some legal levels.
What if gubberment decides that it will no longer issue marriage licenses to Baptists? Is a man and woman from that faith less married if their pastor goes ahead and marries them without gubberment sanction? How important is that piece of paper anyhow?
“yours is a hypothetical approach that has already been superseded by reality (government is in the marriage business, and there will be no getting it out), so it is a pointless exercise in speculation at this point.”
I thought this was the internet!! :) This is a good point, and perhaps gubberment marriage solved more problems than it created when it started, but not now in my opinion. It is very hard to get gubberment out of anything, especially when so many take such involvement for granted and can’t imagine any other way.
Freegards
If we can't even get much in the way of that through the various State Courts, it's doubtful that we can get it done on a national level.
Just like New York and St.Louis,the Washington DC family structure is already a mess, with rampant out-of-wedlock births and drug-addicted single mothers and their thug sons running wild. This move just formalizes their total lack of respect for true marriage.
I wasn't making a purely "two humans" argument. What I was doing was taking the "marriage to a child, a rock, a toaster, an animal" out of your and vrwc1's argument. Reality says that an inanimate object or an animal has legal standing to "agree to a marriage", so it's a non-issue, a straw man -- a sick fantasy.
"Now why should I as an employer accept their kind of perverted so called marriage in the way of benefits?
What's standing in your way is the idea that the government is forcing you to pay for their benefits. In other words, it's government's involvement that is causing the ethical problem of you being forced to accept what you do not wish to condone or accept -- nor should you be forced to! As for the insurance companies, they can defend and decide for themselves who they want to cover.
"Besides this is not about marriage as I said earlier it is about shoving the homosexual agenda on to us and then letting them get kids, letting them teach it in schools etc."
That's apples and oranges -- a different argument. I completely agree that it is not healthy for children to be taught the "Mary Has Two Mommies (or Daddies)" BS, because it is not healthy for kids to be sexually confused at such a young age -- they have enough on their plates already growing up in such a whacked out world.
"It’s all about sex to them, and so be it as long as they keep it on the bedroom , but they are not and that is where I now starting to fight these perverts."
That's a local issue, it may be happening across the country, but the parades and the exhibitionism is local, and needs to be dealt with locally. The point is for people to do something, protest to their local government about these parades and the like.
Just getting mad gets you nowhere. Getting organized gets you somewhere.
Marriage IS a public issue. Society has a vital interest in marriage and social stability. Every civilization strongly encourages marriage through laws and custom. None takes your libertarian view.
If that’s too theoretical for you, then listen to this. If government doesn’t endorse and protect male-female marriage, the liberals will run right over us. Once you let gay marriage in the door, then all other homosexual laws come with it — “equal rights” laws imposing the homosexual agenda on our kids in schools, our workplaces, dating services (E-harmony.com in New Jersey), and even our churches. This has aleady happened in Massachusetts where the gay agenda has run wild after homosexual marriage went on the books.
Also, seeing gays make a joke of marriage surely influences young people to not take marriage seriously themselves. Shacking up is a huge problem, with all the out of wedlock births and single mothers with their young thug sons running loose. And one more thing, it is child abuse to deprive an adopted child of a mother or a father. That’s what happens when you allow homosexual marriage and adopted children. No mom or no dad there.
Good point.
I wish I could “LOL”, but I chuckled. A bit.
You know the "out of wedlock births" make me far madder than even gay marriage. It's one thing for two consenting adults to do something that I don't approve of. It's a far greater sin in my mind to drag some innocent child into their parents' screwed up lives, where the child will wind up in some insecure arrangement and never be able to feel safe for their entire childhood!
But it's "unfashionable", even among Conservatives, to gripe about that.
“The spiritual meaning of “marriage” is irrelevant in arguing law.”
Completely irrelevant and that is as it should be. As Orthodox Christians, we are not married because the state says we are, we are married because God’s Holy Orthodox Church through the Mysterium of Matrimony betrothed and crowned and joined us to each other according to God’s law. Marriage “contracts”, vaguely symbolized in the West by the exchange of vows, have nothing to do with us.
That the state says we are married in its eyes means we get certain benefits from the state and undertake certain state mandated obligations, some of which are co-extensive with what The Church teaches for marriage and some of which aren’t. “Gay marriage” is as much a creation of the state for purposes and reasons sufficient apparently for the state as male/female secular marriage is. It has nothing at all to do with us as Orthodox Christians.
I am not arguing that point, because I agree with you. What we are arguing about is how to get there.
I am saying that if you look around, "government ISN'T going to protect marriage", because they aren't doing it now. Check the article's title -- DC is only "RECOGNIZING gay marriages performed in other States". Those States have already caved. And the populist approach isn't going to work because the numbers are increasingly for gay marriage, not against it.
You, manc and vrwc1 can "shoot the messenger" all you want, but it doesn't change the demographics or the political will of those who want to impose this on us.
I am simply suggesting a way of neutralizing the argument because it is the best plan I can see to prevent government from shoving this down our throats.
"Politics is the art of what is possible", period. What I and Ransomed have suggested is both Constitutional and "possible". What you are suggesting might have been possible 20 years ago, but isn't anymore because the numbers don't support it.
States' rights for DC are only a few Constitutional breaches away.
Just give it a little time.
you’re right.
Why don’t they speak up? When comes to sex and family matters, far too many conservatives have their own skeletons in the closet. They are afraid to complain about anything publicly. At least the men, that is. Maybe the women should speak up more.
I completely agree and feel largely disconnected from this spiritually , but given that we do live in this world and need to vote, I was kind of asking for the opinion of K "the lawyer" and not K "the theologian" on this.
But you answered the question anyway, pure legality is no real defense of the sancitity of "marriage".
Hey don’t give up yet! It’s only a few states.
Taking marriage private, as you recommend, will not stop the radical civil rights agenda. It will only encourage them. They’ll say thank you, sweetie! You have just taken away a huge symbolic obstacle to our goal of destroying civilization. Like communist utopia, they will say, marriage will be off the table! Crushed in favor of the state! Now, darlings, here are some PUBLIC homosexual laws that you will have to obey.
Conservatives must fight this at every step. It is the rght thing to do. At least one brave state should have the freedom from the homosexual agenda. We can’t show the white flag.
the fact is your argument is based on the Govt has no role and of course it does because if he it does not then we will have every sick whack job from CA to MA wanting to marry all sorts and we see this today with the sick perverts and their supporters who want a so called homo marriage.
as for getting organised , well here in FL we did and got over 62% of people saying no time will we ever have homos pushing their agenda here.
you see when the people get to vote the majority says no to this sick agenda and to their supporters too
even in CA
Cool, maybe they’ll all move there and make the town safe for pudgy men to carry their little kick dogs around instead of making them walk on their own.
No, if you would have read my posts, I said that the government's role is pure a legal one, not "the caretaker of religious sanctity" -- that's our job.
as for getting organised , well here in FL we did and got over 62% of people saying no time will we ever have homos pushing their agenda here.
You had a margin of 12%, that's not bad, but expect that to change -- and not demographically in your favor.
You think that I enjoy being the bearer of bad news, but I hate it. I just know that the closer that gays get to winning this, the less that they will be open to bargaining over something like "everyone gets a legal partnership" from the government and takes care of "marriage" in their churches. But once that tipping point happens, it's all over and there will be no going back.
I think that they don't speak up because they think that the only alternative is abortion, which is worse. It's not the only alternative. That's crazy thinking.
So why is it the Pastor will say....Do you....take this WOMAN....to be your LAWFULLY WEDDED WIFE?
“So why is it the Pastor will say....Do you....take this WOMAN....to be your LAWFULLY WEDDED WIFE?”
We don’t say that; never did. There are no “vows” in the Orthodox Sacrament of Marriage. The vows we hear in Western weddings today are a variation on those set out in the 16th century English wedding ceremony and reflect the state’s overlordship of the English church. Beyond that, I can only assume that today here in America “lawfully” means according to God’s law and that the state recognizes that marriage. Adam and Steve getting “lawfully married” by some notary public (or woman pretending to be a priest) says absolutely nothing about you being “lawfully married” in your congregation.
we got more than 12% different the vote for homos here was only in the 30% tile we got over 62% and no it won’t change that much as the more Hispanics and others move here the more or less it stays the same.
even in the nutty place of CA, the majority do not want homo’s to have their sham marriage and when that state becomes a hispanic majority then the homos will be chased out of there too.
the homos are not winning, you might like to think they are but they are not,.
Every state which has voted has banned their agenda, states which have been pushed onto this are the ones getting it but I have just talked to a few people up there and one off here who is in MA and even if they had the vote today the homos would be banned for having their sham marriage.
while polls might give them a climb it is because some who are weak and live in fear are to scared to say they oppose it but you mark my words they are against it.
then add the muslims who come here to places in MN, MI who oppose homosexuality, YES A group which the media likes to ignore but there are millions of them here and they hate , totally hate homosexuality and more of them are coming as indeed hispanics.
Why do you think the homos want to get a hold of kids and teach this in schools?
Because they know the kids are the next generation and they will be nothing without the next generation.
Of course the dopes who say they know a couple and are nice will still be there for them while ignoring what they actually do and how they actually are
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