Israel fears Jewish attack on ‘Hitler Youth’ Pope

The Times (UK) ^ | May 10, 2009 | Uzi Mahnaimi

[presidio9]

I have read about Ratsinger’s past.

If you really want to sound like you know what you're talking about, the least you could do is learn to spell the man's name right. BTW, the Wikipedia page and a couple of magazine articles doesn't qualify you as someone who has "read up" on the man. And the Jews comeing around here to attack him represent a small annoying minority who must simply be put in their place, lest the continue to spread their lies. You seem to know that there is no evidence that the feelings that Ratzinger had for the Nazis were nothing but revulsion.

[rogator]

Don’t sweat that guy. It isn’t just your thread.
I looked at his other posts. His bigotry is frequently present, front and center.
Like I said earlier, I have known as many anti-Catholic Jews as I have anti-Jewish Catholics. We have got ours. They have got theirs. It is what it is.

[babygene]

Jews are fuxed for a couple of reasons... None of it involves the Pope.

When American Jewish voters vote for the Muslim obama by 74%, it’s pretty much over for Israel.

[Blogger]

I repeat, my comment was not about J O S E P H Ratzinger (See, I’m not the only one to misspell a name). My comment was about the Jews themselves who DO NOT need to be PUT IN THEIR PLACE. They have the right to feel what they feel and frankly are justified in their distrust of Christianity and particularly Catholicism given the centuries long persecution of them by that particular institution. They do not have the right to try to off the Pope. Such would not solve anything.

[April Lexington]

The Vatican insists that Joseph Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth only because it was compulsory and did not attend its meetings.

"I tried it, but, I didn't inhale..."

[April Lexington]

It's absurd. The future Pope was very young (14 y/o), impressionable, and living in a nation on the brink of chaos when he made this mistake. He was never an active member of the group and he hasn't advocated anything remotely Nazi in his adult life.

We can call this the ACORN defense!

[Cronos]

If this guy wasn’t the Pope, and had the same history, and he stayed in the Hitler Youth for over a year, would you be suspecting him? Granted, they shouldn’t be planning physical attacks on him; but I can understand the sentiment of having a little resentment towards him if you saw your relatives sent to the ovens - regardless if there is repentance or not

well, the first is ignorance -- Hitler Youth was compulsory for all students. That's no more than saying that he was a boy scout. Were Hitler Youth thought Nazi slogans? Yes. Did that mean that they CHOSE that or that their parents CHOSE that? No. Did that mean that they would by default become Nazis? No. Also, he left after a year and he was conscripted into the army and deserted it.

The greatest proof that Herr Ratzinger was no Nazi was that he was close friends with Karol Wojtyla who lived through the Nazi occupation of Poland.

[Cronos]

To the article however, what say you regarding Joseph Ratzinger's membership in the Hitler Youth? Do you feel that youthful membership in the KKK should disqualify you from political office in the US?

If you were 13/14 at the time and it was compulsory IN YOUR NATION, then no, it would have no bearing. The KKK members join of their own volition. Any white-supremacist group that indocrtinates kids does so at the parents behest.

Ratzinger's parents didn't force him to join the Hitler youth, however, the nation made it compulsory, just as they later made conscripts of everyone -- you can't condemn every German soldier from WWII as a NAzi because the vast majority weren't, they were just conscripts. If those conscripts did terrible things to civilians, THEN they would be Nazis and would be condemned, but not an ordinary soldier who fights enemy combatants.

[Cronos]

When Catholics can demonstrably show that Jews have systematically tortured, murdered, "converted" them (cultural and religious genecide), then you can turn the tables... until then, there has no people persecuted as ruthlessly by another as Jews have been by Catholics.

Sigh, you play the blame game and someone will point out Saul of Tarsus and the Sanhedrin's suppression of early Christian communities. The blame game doesn't work. Can you demonstrate any where where the Church now persecutes Jews?

[safisoft]

Second, because only someone who knew nothing about Christianity, would ever make that statement. The most important Christian who ever lived was a Jewish persecuter of Christians until he converted.

Converted to what? Paul was a Jew until the day he died. Not just a Jew, but a Temple Jew. Not just a Temple Jew, but an observant Temple Jew.

He would be repulsed by the "church" that declared Jews as "Christ-killers" and has a long sad history of murdering Jews.

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for G-d's gifts and His call are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

[Cronos]

Hey, there was that Luther guy - let's blame the Protestants... didn't Luther write "The Jews and Their Lies"?

your rant is absurd, digging up the past to the greatest extent. Then the Jewish people should hate (going chronologicall forwards):

1. The Sumerians (because Abraham was an Akkadian and his ancestors had moved into Sumerian lands and the Sumerians didn't let go until Sargon of Akkad conquered all the Sumerian cities),
2. The Hyksos Pharaohs for taking Sarah from Abraham,
3. The New Kingdom Pharoahs for everything from the Exodus to Shoshenk
4. The Edumeans/Edomites (and strangely, since the Edomites were conquered by the Hashemites in the 1st century BC and converted to Judaism, many Jewish people may trace some bloodlines back to Edom as well as Jacob!)
5. the Moabites, Ammonites, Arameans, Philistines, Phoenicians etc.
6. The Assyrians
7. The Babylonians
8. The Persians (ok, Cyrus the Great freed the Jews, but what about Hamam?)
9. The Greeks
10. The Romans

how far back do you want to go?

Thankfully most Jews don't do that and most are willing to forgo the past in favor of a better future. THAT is why Israel is now the most developed land in the Middle East, because it looks to the future.

[safisoft]

Sigh, you play the blame game and someone will point out Saul of Tarsus and the Sanhedrin's suppression of early Christian communities. The blame game doesn't work. Can you demonstrate any where where the Church now persecutes Jews?

Sanity on this thread? You are correct. Although they were not distinct from the other Judaisms of the First Century, Jews of "the Way" were indeed persecuted by the Jewish authorities. Later on however, they gained great acceptance (Acts 21). By the time James was murdered, the Pharisee party was so intertwined with the movement that they sent emissaries to Caesar to complain against the illegitimate High Priest who had arranged for the murder of James.

By the early Second Century, Gentiles outnumbered Jews in the assemblies, and they had to create theologies to distance themselves from Jews because the Jews were suffering from Roman persecution. Those theologies eventually became dogma and justified the "Church's" systematic persecution of Jews. A brief perusal of the ante-Nicean fathers' writings will reveal a vile hatred of all things Jewish.

Where you are confused is on who the parties were in the First Century. The early followers of Jesus were all Jews. The "your side, our side" was not "Christian against Jew" - it was Jew against Jew. No Sanhedrin ever made rulings against Gentiles.

[safisoft]

Thankfully most Jews don't do that and most are willing to forgo the past in favor of a better future. THAT is why Israel is now the most developed land in the Middle East, because it looks to the future.

It isn't about hate, or digging up the past. It is a recognition of one thing: to be "anti-Israel" is to be "anti-G-d."

We remember for this one reason: Until the Messiah comes, we have no earthly friends. They will always turn on us, they will always seek to kill us. We thought that we had friends in the Age of Enlightenment. We assimilated into European society. We were the doctors, the poets, the philosophers. We looked and acted like everyone else. In the end, six million of us were murdered because of our ancestry. We will never forget. We will not permit others to forget. There is no malice in this. After all, look at your list. We are warning folks that they should carefully consider Who is standing behind us, watching over us...

And BTW, we were commanded to remember. We were told, "Remember what Amalek did to you..."

[Cronos]

Converted to what? Paul was a Jew until the day he died. Not just a Jew, but a Temple Jew. Not just a Temple Jew, but an observant Temple Jew.

Sigh... you've not read the Acts of the Apostles or any of Paul's letters, have you?

He said very clearly that the New covenant was with God and ALL of His people, that the early covenant was just with God and the children of Israel but that now God had granted grace on all His Children.

Do you as a Jewish person believe that God's grace is now solely with you because you are descended from Abraham? We believe that accident of birth does not determine grace, but God's will alone and that a descendent of Ham has as much a chance to get God's grace as a descendent of Shem.


He would be repulsed by the "church" that declared Jews as "Christ-killers" and has a long sad history of murdering Jews.

The people who in front of the Sanhedrin said that Christ's blood would be on them and their children were not ALL the Jews in the world and in no way can that be used to say that Jews are Christ-killers. The more correct term is that ALL of us -- you AND me are Christ-killers, by our sins.

The Church of God, founded by God and a continuation of the Temple, through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is God's will.

[Cronos]

Sanity on this thread? You are correct. Although they were not distinct from the other Judaisms of the First Century, Jews of "the Way" were indeed persecuted by the Jewish authorities

let's break it down:.
1. you say that the early Christians were NOT distinct from other Jewish sects (like the Essenes, Nazarenes etc.). That's a WRONG statement. Did the other groups believe that Christ was the messiah? Did the other groups believe that Judaic law had been superseded by God's new covenant? Did the other groups believe in God's grace?

2. Secondly, you DO point out that early Christians were persecuted by Judaic authorities, the Sanhedrin and the like. Isn't that exactly the proof you wanted that Judaic authorities also persecutied Christians?

forget the past, as my post 91 points out, you can go back 4 millenia to play the blame game.


A brief perusal of the ante-Nicean fathers' writings will reveal a vile hatred of all things Jewish.

Examples?

[Cronos]

Until the Messiah comes, we have no earthly friends

The Messiah CAME. And He brought grace to the Gentiles and the Jews. Or do you believe that Gentiles, those not descended from Abraham are condemned to hell?

[safisoft]

Sigh... you've not read the Acts of the Apostles or any of Paul's letters, have you?

I have spent years studying the New Testament... in Greek. I am intimately familiar with all of its precious words, I can assure you. On the other hand, I have learned that just as Peter said about Paul, whose, "words hard to understand, which some distort to their own ruin." Without immersing yourself in the language and culture of Paul, you won't ever understand him. Although he likely spoke Latin and Greek... he thought like a Jew, and his training under Gamliel was thoroughly "rabbinic" and that tells far more than you can ever see on your side of the divide. Paul is one of Judaism's greatest sages.

[safisoft]

Or do you believe that Gentiles, those not descended from Abraham are condemned to hell?

That is an odd thing to say to a Jew. If you knew about Judaism you would see the perfect irony.

As for what the hope of Gentiles is, it is Messiah. Romans 11 teaches that Gentiles were grafted into Israel. Jesus Himself said, "Salvation is of the Jews." Read Isaiah 2 or Malachi 4. You will get the picture.

[safisoft]

A brief perusal of the ante-Nicean fathers' writings will reveal a vile hatred of all things Jewish. Examples?

Can you stomach them? I will gladly post some on this thread. Apparently, you will be quite shocked to see what some of the "revered" said. Right now, I have to go to work, but if you want I will gladly post some quotes from Augustine, Marytr, Chrysostom, Origen, et al.

[Cronos]

In the end, six million of us were murdered because of our ancestry. We will never forget. We will not permit others to forget. There is no malice in this.

REMEMBERING is one thing, using that as blind prejudice is as sickening as those condemning Jews as Christ-killers.

And you, sir (or madam), are using it as blind prejudice against The Church. If you re-read your posts, you will see what we see that you are condemning The Church because it is a gentile organisation, that you are condemning the Pope because he was forced into the Hitler Youth.

Do you not see this a blind prejudice, just of the kind that led the sub-human Nazis?


Furthermore, your point that "Jews have no friends" is one that I've heard from SOME Israelies, but never from Jews born and raised in the US, in France, in india. That mentality may be derived from a seige mentality but it forgets that Jews were protected throughout History by various peoples -- do you so easily forget that Cyrus and the Persians saved Judah and Benjamin from being decimated by the Babylonians? These ancestors of the Iranis actually funded the building of the second temple.

Do you so easily forget that the completor of the temple was a Edomite (Herod)?

Do you so easily forget that Alexander, a Greek, was considered the savior of the Judaic peoples?

Do you forget that Jews were welcomed into the Polish commonwealth for centuries by Polish kings?

And finally, do you forget that in places like India, Jews were never persecuted but were part of the community? Do you forget all of this and say "we have no earthly friends, everyone is our enemy"?


The more you repeat that, the more you perplex and alienate your friends.